Public vs Private School funding

[Demonic Ascent]

See here.

That's not really a proposal for change though. You've said increase funding with all increased funds going to public schools however this does nothing to address the public funds going to private schools who should not be receiving it. Depending on the level of increase it also doesn't address the core issues in under funded public schools.

You've mentioned some wishy-washy stuff about increasing respect for teachers, good luck with that. While newscorp continues to portray them as the front line in neo-marxist culture wars that's unlikely to change. Increase teacher salaries to make it a more desirable profession and that may improve things though I doubt it.

Introducing a national curriculum across senior school may be a good idea, I don't know I haven't really thought about it much or seen many benefits articulated. But I don't see how this addresses the issue of inequitable funding of private schools.

The first step in any plan should be a removal of funding to the highest fee schools. This could incorporate consideration of their fees and assets/capital. Redirect that funding to public schools.

Then undertake a review of the funding standards to ensure public schools aren't having things like transport and capital depreciation included and gradually cease funding to other lower fee schools until all public funding is directed to public schools as it should be. Leave private schools to be funded privately via schools fees and donations.

 

[Gruffles]

Private schools enrolling kids who threaten to kill. Where the hell is this amazing area you work in?

There was quite a bit of work put in between the schools before the move happened. With lots of discussions with the student and parents.

 

[Gruffles]

That's not really a proposal for change though. You've said increase funding with all increased funds going to public schools however this does nothing to address the public funds going to private schools who should not be receiving it. Depending on the level of increase it also doesn't address the core issues in under funded public schools.

I dont see how proposing change isnt a proposal for change and I also mention in subsequent posts that after implementing the suggestions we'd then shift to a large scale system change. Of course the level of increase is important and would need to be significant.

You've mentioned some wishy-washy stuff about increasing respect for teachers, good luck with that. While newscorp continues to portray them as the front line in neo-marxist culture wars that's unlikely to change. Increase teacher salaries to make it a more desirable profession and that may improve things though I doubt it.

We disagree with each other here (apart from the medias role in the issue... i agree with you there). The fact you refer to it as 'wishy-washy' is part of the problem, in my eyes. If the need for increased respect of education and teachers is viewed as that, then we're going to get nowhere in this area.

An increase in the funding to the public system should involve an increase in teachers wages.

Introducing a national curriculum across senior school may be a good idea, I don't know I haven't really thought about it much or seen many benefits articulated. But I don't see how this addresses the issue of inequitable funding of private schools.

I see this having two impacts, in my opinion. Firstly, it would have overly positive impact in our senior level curriculum and student outcomes as there's more people working on one curriculum rather than groups working on many. Not a funding impact, true, but still a good one. Secondly, it would essentially tie the federal government more to the senior curriculum side of things and should result in them actually putting more funds into the government schools.

The first step in any plan should be a removal of funding to the highest fee schools. This could incorporate consideration of their fees and assets/capital. Redirect that funding to public schools.

Then undertake a review of the funding standards to ensure public schools aren't having things like transport and capital depreciation included and gradually cease funding to other lower fee schools until all public funding is directed to public schools as it should be. Leave private schools to be funded privately via schools fees and donations.

Yep, I like these steps. Couple those with the steps I've mentioned and implement it over a 3-5 year time frame I'd be in full support.

 

[Sttew]

The defence of the current system never changes there is literally no point arguing with these people

Pot calling the kettle black?

I have NEVER seen you concede any point to “these people”, apologise for being wrong to “these people”, or accept a view by “these people” that is contrary to yours.

 

[Sttew]

See when the privates expel them the public schools are obliged to enrol them. They want the same money but not the same rules.

I know of a private girls school in Melbourne’s SE that accepts students who were either expelled from other schools or who don’t fit in. My wife has been working at the school as a consultant for the past 9 months.

 

[The Punter]

The Catholic system is going nowhere. Abolishing it or nationalising it is politically and functionally impossible.

And when in 2016 it was proposed that the method (not the quantum) of funding would be changed, the Catholic system went to the mattresses and fought it off.

Australia will see a 20% GST before we see a Catholic system with no government funding.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

I know of a private girls school in Melbourne’s SE that accepts students who were either expelled from other schools or who don’t fit in. My wife has been working at the school as a consultant for the past 9 months.

yeah. there's always an exception that somehow dismisses the problem as non existant eh? Bit like the 100 year old smoker?

 

[Reg Grundy35]

The Catholic system is going nowhere. Abolishing it or nationalising it is politically and functionally impossible.

And when in 2016 it was proposed that the method (not the quantum) of funding would be changed, the Catholic system went to the mattresses and fought it off.

Australia will see a 20% GST before we see a Catholic system with no government funding.

yes - most of us are well aware of the grip that organisation has on our society and the wounds that it has left.

 

[The Punter]

yes - most of us are well aware of the grip that organisation has on our society and the wounds that it has left.

The wounds are undeniable and indefensible.

But the grip includes the education of many of our children, the treatment of many of our sick, and the funding and operation of many social programs. To destroy that would be disastrous for our society.

I will now leave it to others to discuss this particular topic if they see fit.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

The wounds are undeniable and indefensible.

Yet they still receive special treatment by governments and handled with kid gloves. ie despite the abominable offences they have caused they still wield political clout

 

[Reg Grundy35]

But the grip includes the education of many of our children, the treatment of many of our sick, and the funding and operation of many social programs. To destroy that would be disastrous for our society.

You left out the indoctrination of children from the age of 5 to ensure the continuation of the cult. I'm not sure the disappearance of that would be all that disastrous

 

[Reg Grundy35]

I will now leave it to others to discuss this particular topic if they see fit.

of course you do

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I dont see how proposing change isnt a proposal for change and I also mention in subsequent posts that after implementing the suggestions we'd then shift to a large scale system change. Of course the level of increase is important and would need to be significant.


We disagree with each other here (apart from the medias role in the issue... i agree with you there). The fact you refer to it as 'wishy-washy' is part of the problem, in my eyes. If the need for increased respect of education and teachers is viewed as that, then we're going to get nowhere in this area.

An increase in the funding to the public system should involve an increase in teachers wages.


I see this having two impacts, in my opinion. Firstly, it would have overly positive impact in our senior level curriculum and student outcomes as there's more people working on one curriculum rather than groups working on many. Not a funding impact, true, but still a good one. Secondly, it would essentially tie the federal government more to the senior curriculum side of things and should result in them actually putting more funds into the government schools.


Yep, I like these steps. Couple those with the steps I've mentioned and implement it over a 3-5 year time frame I'd be in full support.

I don't necessarily disagree with you and the national curriculum may be good, though it does further centralise things and give the commonwealth greater power over the states in education which I think could be problematic.

I just think the first steps towards any changes is a review and change of the funding model to ensure public schools are appropriately resourced and the wealthy schools receive no government funding.

The reason I said ensuring greater respect for teachers is "wishy-washy" is because it's an ideal that I agree with but I'm not sure how you get there? How do you propose this happening? And while I agree with the sentiment I don't believe it should be an impediment to changing the funding model as mentioned above.

Re the SRS and my comments about transport and depreciation of capital being included for public schools (but not private), see below from today's daily "Post" news headlines from The Saturday Paper;

Calls to close school fund loophole

The federal government is under increasing pressure to scrap an education funding “loophole” that critics say is leaving public schools underfunded (The Guardian).

After announcing a $1bn package in partnership with the NT government to bring all public schools in the territory to the School Resourcing Standard (SRS) by 2029, the focus has been on whether Labor will continue with a Morrison-era clause that allows about 4% of the state and territory government’s share in school funding to be spent on non-school expenditure (The Saturday Paper).

When asked whether this loophole would be scrapped as part of the new NT agreement, Education Minister Jason Clare said this was not part of the plan.

Save our Schools convenor Trevor Cobbold said retaining this clause in the new funding agreements would be “disastrous”.

The Greens are also pushing for the loophole to be closed, with its education spokesperson Penny Allman-Payne saying it will “lock in underfunding”.

All states except WA have yet to sign new school funding agreements with the Commonwealth, demanding the federal government up its offer of a 2.5% boost to 5%

 

[Gruffles]

I don't necessarily disagree with you and the national curriculum may be good, though it does further centralise things and give the commonwealth greater power over the states in education which I think could be problematic.

Problematic in what way?

I just think the first steps towards any changes is a review and change of the funding model to ensure public schools are appropriately resourced and the wealthy schools receive no government funding.

I guess this is where we can't reach an agreement on the first steps of how to achieve the change (note - not that we can't agree that there needs to be change). And that's OK.

The reason I said ensuring greater respect for teachers is "wishy-washy" is because it's an ideal that I agree with but I'm not sure how you get there? How do you propose this happening? And while I agree with the sentiment I don't believe it should be an impediment to changing the funding model as mentioned above.

This is a great question and I'm not exactly sure how we can achieve it. I think a big starting point would be the need to look at how and why other countries have developed a level of respect for their teachers and seeing what worked/didn't for them. Maybe we need to have a greater level of media regulations that deals with stuff like this (I don't pretend to be knowledgeable at all on media regulations so might be suggesting something outrageous), as I do definitely see the media playing an important role in the whole shift as they currently play an important role in fuelling the issues. In any case, I don't see this is something that we'd be able to change in a short period, so I don't think we need to see a complete shift before changing any funding model, but at least some greater efforts that have long term approaches attached to them to be in place.

Re the SRS and my comments about transport and depreciation of capital being included for public schools (but not private), see below from today's daily "Post" news headlines from The Saturday Paper;

Yep, that loophole is trash and should be immediately closed. Completely agree here.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The Catholic system is going nowhere. Abolishing it or nationalising it is politically and functionally impossible.

And when in 2016 it was proposed that the method (not the quantum) of funding would be changed, the Catholic system went to the mattresses and fought it off.

Australia will see a 20% GST before we see a Catholic system with no government funding.

Of course because lobby groups will always kick up a fuss and the media runs the PR campaign. It's why this country is stuffed and there is rarely any policies implemented which are in the national interest.

 

[geoffjennings79]

right. Its pretty simple really. All the waffle is coz they don't want the tap turned off or slowed down. Can't blame them i suppose although it does reek of not giving 2 s about whether any other people's kids miss out as long as there's can still go to King Island in Yr 9.

Who goes to King Island in Year 9? Ballarat Clarendon College stopped that a few years ago, for several reasons. Also if you'd ever seen their 'campus' down there, it was a bunch of re-purposed mining company huts, not exactly a jaunt for the off-spring of Ballarat's well-to-do upper class! Is/was there other schools using the same facilities?

I'm on the 'more govt funding for public, defund private' side btw, just happen to know students, families and staff across a number of Ballarat secondary schools, from a broad set of backgrounds and socio-economic circumstances.

 

[Seeds]

Serious question. Stripping private schools of funding is one thing but why would you want to completely do away with a private school system? What is the motivation?

To create a society of equal oportunity. Its a core requirement of capitalism.

 

[Carn The Berries]

I am forever going to point this out as not correct.

x2 to this. The amount of times I've heard this argument across multiple threads is absolutely laughable.

 

[Carn The Berries]

yeah. there's always an exception that somehow dismisses the problem as non existant eh? Bit like the 100 year old smoker?

Yet you haven't provided one example to support your claim that non-government schools expel kids for s***s and giggles...

 

[The Punter]

Expelling kids willy-nilly is not good for a school's reputation. Especially at the non-elite level.

Also, and I know this may be a foreign concept to a lot of people, but most people who work in schools want to help children. Expelling them doesn't necessarily do that.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Problematic in what way?


I guess this is where we can't reach an agreement on the first steps of how to achieve the change (note - not that we can't agree that there needs to be change). And that's OK.


This is a great question and I'm not exactly sure how we can achieve it. I think a big starting point would be the need to look at how and why other countries have developed a level of respect for their teachers and seeing what worked/didn't for them. Maybe we need to have a greater level of media regulations that deals with stuff like this (I don't pretend to be knowledgeable at all on media regulations so might be suggesting something outrageous), as I do definitely see the media playing an important role in the whole shift as they currently play an important role in fuelling the issues. In any case, I don't see this is something that we'd be able to change in a short period, so I don't think we need to see a complete shift before changing any funding model, but at least some greater efforts that have long term approaches attached to them to be in place.


Yep, that loophole is trash and should be immediately closed. Completely agree here.

The problem is you are setting up something which you're not even sure how to achieve and which is impossible to measure as a pre-requisite of creating a fairer funding model. Sure, take a look at what can be done to improve the level of respect teachers receive but I don't see why you think that must happen prior to fixing the inequities in the funding and under-resourcing of government schools while those with more money than they know what to do with continue to stick their hands into the public purse. It's perverse.

 

[Gruffles]

The problem is you are setting up something which you're not even sure how to achieve and which is impossible to measure as a pre-requisite of creating a fairer funding model. Sure, take a look at what can be done to improve the level of respect teachers receive but I don't see why you think that must happen prior to fixing the inequities in the funding and under-resourcing of government schools while those with more money than they know what to do with continue to stick their hands into the public purse. It's perverse.

I asked what you saw as problematic for implementing a national Year 11 and 12 curriculum, not raising teacher/education respect. Did you have a response to that?

Also, you might have missed it, but I didn't say that we needed to achieve a complete shift in the mentality of respect prior to fixing the funding model, just that a clear effort is in place with long term goals attached to it.

Look... we're not setting anything up here. I am not going to have the answers or methods to every opinion/idea I have. In any case, I'm approaching this with a holistic view of the education system having some flaws. Focussing just on the funding model, in my view, is simplifying a bigger issue. In my opinion, ONLY revamping the funding model will have a net 0 or potentially negative impact on our overall education outcomes as a nation. Note - I'm not saying don't revamp the funding model, I'm saying revamp it as part of a bigger shift in the current education model.

Why that idea is perverse in your eyes is a bit baffling to me.

 

[Romeoh1]

To create a society of equal oportunity. Its a core requirement of capitalism.

Che?

 

[Cmarsh]

This action by Minns shows governments are barely even trying anymore when it comes to public education. Almost like they have accepted that parents have voted with their feet by flocking to the private system.

NSW public school budget cut by $148 million as principals forced back to classroom teaching

The NSW government announces a $148 million cut to public school funding, and will require principals and deputies to return to classroom teaching to make up for the shortfall.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Chief]

I suppose if you keep cutting budgets, that will happen.