Play Nice Random Chat Thread V

[Tectonic]

With all the vegan talk recently, some people might be interested in this exploration of where plant based meat is at these days.

Once it's perfected (and it's pretty close now), is there any valid reason not to make the switch?

I'd say maybe cost would be the main factor, surely it will be a little while before artificial meat can match farmed for price, but for me I'd use artificial where I can. I already try to minimise my own meat consumption as I'm bloody sick of it from working with it day in day out. Not really the type to eat/say a particular thing out of some sense of duty to contrarianism like some, so advocates and pompous fruitcakes or whatever wouldn't really have much bearing on my choices either way.
Can see a market for traditional meat as a delicacy moving forward, but it would be an interesting change. A lot of jobs would be displaced if meat was off the menu.

 

[Sopwiths North]

I'd say maybe cost would be the main factor, surely it will be a little while before artificial meat can match farmed for price, but for me I'd use artificial where I can. I already try to minimise my own meat consumption as I'm bloody sick of it from working with it day in day out. Not really the type to eat/say a particular thing out of some sense of duty to contrarianism like some, so advocates and pompous fruitcakes or whatever wouldn't really have much bearing on my choices either way.
Can see a market for traditional meat as a delicacy moving forward, but it would be an interesting change. A lot of jobs would be displaced if meat was off the menu.

Slaughterhouse workers are part of the meat industry's chain of abuse and inhumaneness though. The majority of workers are immigrants, and are treated poorly. Many contract diseases from the filthy working conditions, immersed in offal and animal waste. And, more recently, they've been included in some of the biggest COVID outbreaks here in Canada, and in the US, and, I believe in Australia too. I'm not sure that the bulk of the jobs created by industrialised meat production are the kind worth saving, to be honest.

It also speaks to the bigger picture of how to create jobs with more humane and ethical conditions for these types of workers. That's a societal issue, but eliminating the horrific conditions that industrialised meat production relies on is surely not a bad thing in the long run.

Or if it's the farmers' livelihoods you're referring too, well, you just change what you farm. Which again, is good for the planet, and thus, good for us.

I still lean more towards lab-grown meat though, ultimately. While a plant-based diet is better for the environment, I don't trust us not to screw that one up too, through lack of crop diversity and destruction of land (a la the palm oil industry, for instance) Yes, as a species, we do consume too much meat. But leaning towards more heavily industrialised plant farming will bring its own set of problems to our planet. We need to veer as much as possible away from the industrialised farming aspect of food production, and more toward smaller, sustainable farming, with ample crop diversity. And if meat grown in a lab doesn't gain traction, then the animals that we farm should be raised and housed humanely, with freedom to exhibit their natural behaviours for the duration of time that they are alive, and slaughtered with the least amount of transport, trauma, and suffering as possible.

Anyways, 2021 - bring on test tube meat and sustainable small farming! No more suffering. No more destroying the Earth.

 

[Themanbun]

As a pescatarian I'd be on lab grown meat immediately. Barbecues just aren't the same now.

I understand the jobs argument but that can literally be said for every advancement in human society. It's government's job to provide support to people displaced by technological or cultural change, not to hold progress to ransom because we can't fathom intervening in the market to help people.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Also, it seems like not too many on here actually watched the clip that StiffArm posted (which was very good, by the way), because there's still people being asked on here to explain why they're vegan. I'm not really sure why it matters. The reasons are multifold. You can pretty much take your pick. But the reasons that affect all of us have to do with climate change, and the destruction of the planet we all depend on for life.

“The real war against climate is being fought on our plates, multiple times a day with every food choice we make,” says Nil Zacharias, co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of One Green Planet, ”one of the biggest challenges facing our planet, and our species is that we are knowingly eating ourselves into extinction, and doing very little about it.”




1. Cutting Your Carbon Footprint
There’s no debating animal agriculture’s devastating contribution to global warming. The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) estimates that livestock production is responsible for 14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions.

2. Conserving Water
According to the Water Footprint Network, it takes 1,000 gallons of water to produce just one gallon of milk...it requires about 100 times more water to produce a pound of animal protein than a pound of grain protein.

3. Saving Animal and Plant Habitats
..worldwide, almost a third of arable land is used for animal agriculture — much of it to just to feed pigs, cattle and chicken...animal agriculture is a major contributor to deforestation and desertification.

4. Dead Zones
Animal agriculture is the leading cause of water pollution and ocean dead zones. Waste from factory farms is stored in giant lagoons and applied, untreated, to crops as fertilizer. The hundreds of toxins.. find their way into groundwater and then into rivers and oceans, where they destroy marine ecosystems.

5. Cleaner Air
The millions of tons of manure from factory farms is responsible for producing ammonia, the most potent form of nitrogen, that kills fish, causes algae blooms, and contributes to smog. Additionally, the air surrounding factory farms often contains above average levels of hydrogen sulfide, particulate matter, endotoxins, carbon dioxide, and methane.



The Power of Eating for the Planet
One Green Planet believes that our global food system dominated by industrial animal agriculture is at the heart of our environmental crisis.

This destructive industry currently occupies over half of the world’s arable land resources, uses the majority of our freshwater stores, and drives greenhouse gas emissions. Additionally, this system causes rampant air and water pollution, land degradation, deforestation, and is pushing countless species to the brink of extinction. And yet, one in eight people still suffer from food scarcity.

 

[Sopwiths North]

COVID-19 is another reminder that we need to address how we raise and tend our food, and make some long-overdue fundamental changes if we are to continue to survive as a species.





"Almost as soon as it became clear that our societies and economic systems would not continue as normal through the COVID-19 pandemic, calls to “build back better” and even to “build forward” began to grow louder and more urgent across the world.

COVID-19 is yet another in a series of diseases that have emerged from humans’ interactions with animals and has been preceded by HIV, Ebola, swine flu, and avian influenza, to name a few. But even as the policies to achieve this “build back” are being proposed, debated, and implemented, the root causes of the pandemic lack full recognition, muting the ability of these policies to prevent history from repeating itself, perhaps with an even more deadly pandemic, in the future.

Now that we are close to the approval of a vaccine, it appears that the circulation of COVID-19 in mink on European fur farms has contributed to the emergence of new variants of the virus. Some worry that these variants will reduce the effectiveness of the vaccines currently in development, underscoring how our intransigence in addressing our relationship with animals continues to put us at risk.

“Today we stand at a crossroads,” writes Dr. Jane Goodall, DBE in the foreword of The Animals' Manifesto, a new joint-manifesto from 150 animal and environmental protection agencies calling for the inclusion of animal welfare in COVID-19 recovery policies. “Will we continue with ‘business as usual’ or, shall we choose to get together and develop a new relationship with the natural world?”

While COVID-19 should have been a clarion call to fully address our broken relationship with animals and chart a new course forward, many global institutions are still sidestepping the issue. Despite clear scientific evidence of animal sentience and the importance of animal welfare, and even recognition of these concepts by the World Organisation for Animal Health and its 182 member countries, animals are still marginalized in most international and national policy circles. This has, unfortunately, remained unchanged by COVID-19.

“The COVID-19 pandemic is still affecting almost all countries of the world,” writes Goodall. “How shocking to realize that we brought this on ourselves. Through our disrespect of the natural world, and our disrespect of animals.”

This week, the UN General Assembly will host a Special Session on COVID-19. The Concept Note and Program circulated in a letter by the President of the General Assembly (PGA) states that the “two-day Special Session will allow many stakeholders to share their experiences in fighting the pandemic, reflect on the global response to date, and forge a united, coordinated, and people-centered path forward,” yet the word “animal” does not appear even once in the PGA’s letter.

In other policy frameworks, rather than work towards a socially just end to the commercial trade of wildlife, policymakers are calling simply to make the wildlife trade “safe.” And international financial institutions like the International Finance Corporation are continuing to funnel millions of dollars into intensive pig farms in countries like China, where the CDC is already monitoring a new group of swine flu viruses that have “pandemic potential.”

“Wildlife trafficking of live animals or their body parts, much of it illegal, is an industry now worth billions of dollars a year.” Dr. Goodall continues, “Conditions in these markets are horrifyingly cruel and usually very unhygienic; animals are forced into tiny cages often after long journeys with no food or water. Just as cruel, and often just as unhygienic, are the conditions created by the intensive farming of billions of domestic animals around the globe. When cows, pigs, poultry and so on are confined to cramped quarters, where they, too, are typically stressed, often kept alive only by the routine administration of antibiotics fed to them.”

However, there have been glimmers of hope. In July, the UN Environment Programme and the International Livestock Research Institute collaborated on a report on how to prevent the next pandemic. The report highlighted seven key drivers of pandemic risk, naming increased demand for meat, factory farming, and exploitation of wildlife as the first three. But it falls short of providing clear and obvious policy proposals to address these causes at their root.

Policymakers are now more meaningfully incorporating the concept of One Health, which recognizes the interlinkages between environmental, human, and animal health, into policy debates and proposals. However, One Health does have its shortcomings. For one, it tends to minimize the importance of animal welfare in relation to animal health. While the two are related, health does not ensure welfare.

One Health also fails to take into account the fact that animal health and wellbeing impact humans in many ways beyond health alone. A series of zoonotic diseases should by now have made it clear to us all how poor animal health and welfare have the potential to crash the global economy, harm livelihoods, and cause major disturbances to our fragile food systems. For this reason, the concept of “One Welfare,” which highlights the importance of improving animal welfare and extends the One Health concept to relevant issues beyond health alone, desperately needs to be addressed in COVID-19 recovery policies.

This is the impetus behind the new Animals’ Manifesto, a global call to meaningfully address our damaged relationships with animals in international policy. The Manifesto is being supported ahead of the UN General Assembly Special Session on COVID-19 by human rights, environmental, and animal protection NGOs from every continent of the world. Specifically, it calls for policies to shift towards plant-based and plant-rich diets, replacing factory farms with sustainable and regenerative agroecological practices, and ensuring a just transition away from the commercial trade in wildlife.

“The Animals’ Manifesto does not conveniently ignore the central role that improvements in animal well-being and a fundamental change in our relationship with non-human living beings has in COVID-19 recovery and financing efforts,” writes Goodall. “If we care about our children, grandchildren and onwards we must tackle these problems. Let us find a way out of the disastrous mess that we have inflicted on the planet. Before it is too late.”

The joint-manifesto also calls for the welfare of animals to be protected in vaccine development, and for safeguards for the welfare of animals in communities including companion animals and working equines during lockdowns and other COVID-19 restrictions. The set of policy proposals, if adopted by international institutions and national governments, would not only contribute to animal health. They would also contribute substantially to reducing climate change, deforestation, and biodiversity loss, and achieving the Sustainable Development Goals.



A clear-eyed understanding of the risks that our persistent, pervasive exploitation of animals poses is a prerequisite for the transformative change that is needed. It is critical that policymakers at the global level begin to address the animal in the room. Our ability to prevent the next pandemic and ensure our common future depends on it."

 

[Sopwiths North]

Anyways, that's a lot of postings, so I'll stop, lest I get called a "terrorist" or something. But for those asking, the information is out there, if anyone wants to know "why".

For me, it's all those things. It only makes sense. But then I do a whole bunch of things in life that don't make sense too, because I do them from my heart. And I don't feel like I should have to apologise, or explain myself, for any choice I make from my heart.

I recently bought a copy of a book called "Allowed to Grow Old: Portraits of Elderly Animals From Farm Sanctuaries" by a photographer named Isa Leshko. I really like what she wrote in her intro to the book. It's quite beautiful, and the photos she takes are too.


"For nearly a decade, I have visited farm animal sanctuaries across America to create photographic portraits of geriatric animals. I began this series shortly after caring for my mom who had Alzheimer’s disease. The experience had a profound effect on me and forced me to confront my own mortality. I am terrified of growing old and I started photographing geriatric animals in order to take an unflinching look at this fear. As I met rescued farm animals and heard their stories, though, my motivation for creating this work changed. I became a passionate advocate for these animals and I wanted to use my images to speak on their behalf.

For each image, I strive to reveal the unique personality of the animal I photograph. Rescued farm animals are often wary of strangers, and it can take several days to develop a comfortable rapport with the animals I photograph. I often spend a few hours lying on the ground next to an animal before taking a single picture. This helps the animal acclimate to my presence and allows me to be fully present as I get to know her. In order to be as unobtrusive as possible, I do not bring any studio lighting into the animal enclosures and instead work only with natural light.

Nearly all of the animals I met for this project endured horrific abuse and neglect prior to their rescue. Yet it is a massive understatement to say that they are the lucky ones. Roughly fifty billion land animals are factory farmed globally each year. It is nothing short of a miracle to be in the presence of a farm animal who has managed to reach old age. Most of their kin die before they are six months old. By depicting the beauty and dignity of elderly farm animals, I invite reflection upon what is lost when these animals are not allowed to grow old."

Isa Leshko Photography



Ash, Broad Breasted White Turkey, Age 8

 

[Sopwiths North]

I guess my point is, their lives are every bit as important to them as ours are to us. We are not different.

 

[ferball]

One of the more ridiculous things you'll ever watch....

Why does the announcer have 3 arms?

 

[rickety]

Basil is going well

 

[krakouers]

We used to get a good amount (I don't grow it now). But I'd pull the whole plant. And I do recall it did go to seed - generally I used to shake off a few of the seeds for them to grow the next lot.

The seeds, leaves, stems and roots are all usable.

Occasionally we buy coriander but that hydroponic junk sold in supermarkets has no flavour. Home grown wins hands down.

Can we have a gardening Thread?

 

[Themanbun]

With all the vegan talk recently, some people might be interested in this exploration of where plant based meat is at these days.

Once it's perfected (and it's pretty close now), is there any valid reason not to make the switch?

I pulled this experiment with burgers for some mates, some real meat some not. No one could tell the difference.

After you eat the stuff a lot though you can definitely tell, even with the high quality Beyond burgers.

 

[Samsquanch]

Will 35 runs in the morning be enough? They don’t have Virat.

 

[rickety]

Can we have a gardening Thread?

 

[Dan]

I guess my point is, their lives are every bit as important to them as ours are to us. We are not different.

It's a bit hypocritical.....unless the fruit and vegetables you consume are coming from your backyard.

 

[The acurate one]

Also, it seems like not too many on here actually watched the clip that StiffArm posted (which was very good, by the way), because there's still people being asked on here to explain why they're vegan. I'm not really sure why it matters. The reasons are multifold. You can pretty much take your pick. But the reasons that affect all of us have to do with climate change, and the destruction of the planet we all depend on for life.

“The real war against climate is being fought on our plates, multiple times a day with every food choice we make,” says Nil Zacharias, co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of One Green Planet, ”one of the biggest challenges facing our planet, and our species is that we are knowingly eating ourselves into extinction, and doing very little about it.”




1. Cutting Your Carbon Footprint
There’s no debating animal agriculture’s devastating contribution to global warming. The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) estimates that livestock production is responsible for 14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions.

2. Conserving Water
According to the Water Footprint Network, it takes 1,000 gallons of water to produce just one gallon of milk...it requires about 100 times more water to produce a pound of animal protein than a pound of grain protein.

3. Saving Animal and Plant Habitats
..worldwide, almost a third of arable land is used for animal agriculture — much of it to just to feed pigs, cattle and chicken...animal agriculture is a major contributor to deforestation and desertification.

4. Dead Zones
Animal agriculture is the leading cause of water pollution and ocean dead zones. Waste from factory farms is stored in giant lagoons and applied, untreated, to crops as fertilizer. The hundreds of toxins.. find their way into groundwater and then into rivers and oceans, where they destroy marine ecosystems.

5. Cleaner Air
The millions of tons of manure from factory farms is responsible for producing ammonia, the most potent form of nitrogen, that kills fish, causes algae blooms, and contributes to smog. Additionally, the air surrounding factory farms often contains above average levels of hydrogen sulfide, particulate matter, endotoxins, carbon dioxide, and methane.



The Power of Eating for the Planet
One Green Planet believes that our global food system dominated by industrial animal agriculture is at the heart of our environmental crisis.

This destructive industry currently occupies over half of the world’s arable land resources, uses the majority of our freshwater stores, and drives greenhouse gas emissions. Additionally, this system causes rampant air and water pollution, land degradation, deforestation, and is pushing countless species to the brink of extinction. And yet, one in eight people still suffer from food scarcity.

Oh Sopswith you know I love your work and all but yeah....





Oh and I hate salad just so overrated. I mean I eat a lot of vegetables especially those good for the brain so try and eat balanced. Just yeah that sandwich just doesn't look much chop to me anyways.

I have eaten bugs and I thought the flavor tasted just like one would expect a bug to taste like. A bug and not edible.

Maybe we're over populated and could look at that as the real issue? I do believe in 1951 we had 2.5 billion people on the planet and now we're closing in on 8 billion. I don't think steak is the problem.
Hey maybe we need a pandemic- there's a thought.

 

[rickety]

Nicest steak I have ever had was from my own farm. Had a mobile butcher come and slaughter, hang and butcher the animal. Those moo cows had quite a nice relaxed life until the reaper arrived. Had a genuine free range egg farm, never a cage or static housing, award winning chicken and duck eggs - Australias finest I might add ;-) Loved walking out in the morning and picking fruit of my trees, or seeing pumpkin just wind its way around my farm ..... those were the days.

 

[Sopwiths North]

It's a bit hypocritical.....unless the fruit and vegetables you consume are coming from your backyard.

So you're saying that anyone who doesn't grow their own food is a hypocrite? That's a pretty unrealistic expectation to place on anyone. I guess you also didn't read the reply I posted earlier where I talked about small sustainable farming being the only real solution for restoring balance to our world.

For what it's worth, I would grow as much food as I could in my own back yard if I could. But I rent. And I'm in a city. I grow lettuces all summer on my windowsill, and I have a fairly good indoor herb garden that makes it through most of the year. I also support our community garden where I live, and buy as much local and in season as I can.

Not everyone in this world has their own land. In fact, the majority of us don't. It's pretty low of you to use that as a weapon to call someone a hypocrite.

Do you raise the animals that you eat in your back yard and slaughter them yourself?

 

[Dan]

So you're saying that anyone who doesn't grow their own food is a hypocrite? That's a pretty unrealistic expectation to place on anyone. I guess you also didn't read the reply I posted earlier where I talked about small sustainable farming being the only real solution for restoring balance to our world.

For what it's worth, I would grow as much food as I could in my own back yard if I could. But I rent. And I'm in a city. I grow lettuces all summer on my windowsill, and I have a fairly good indoor herb garden that makes it through most of the year. I also support our community garden where I live, and buy as much local and in season as I can.

Not everyone in this world has their own land. In fact, the majority of us don't. It's pretty low of you to use that as a weapon to call someone a hypocrite.

Do you raise the animals that you eat in your back yard and slaughter them yourself?

Occasionally I go fishing.

The problem here though is vegans often preach with a moral high ground shield to make others feel guilty.

An animal is an animal....you can't cherry pick and just go with the majestic looking ones to suit an argument.

Bottom line - if you're buying from shops/supermarkets.....those products come from farms. Farms that spray pesticides that kill insects....that kill other animals like birds, rabbits, foxes, snakes etc to protect their produce. If you're eating tofu, beans, nuts, fruit and veg more than than your average person that consumes red & white meats.....then you could argue that diet is killing more animals than those who eat meat.

#foodforthought

 

[Ry009]

Occasionally I go fishing.

You certainly do.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Occasionally I go fishing.

The problem here though is vegans often preach with a moral high ground shield to make others feel guilty.

An animal is an animal....you can't cherry pick and just go with the majestic looking ones to suit an argument.

Bottom line - if you're buying from shops/supermarkets.....those products come from farms. Farms that spray pesticides that kill insects....that kill other animals like birds, rabbits, foxes, snakes etc to protect their produce. If you're eating tofu, beans, nuts, fruit and veg more than than your average person that consumes red & white meats.....then you could argue that diet is killing more animals than those who eat meat.

#foodforthought

I think you need to read my posts more closely. You seem to have missed the parts where I talk about the importance of small sustainable farming.

Do you raise animals that you eat in your own back yard and slaughter them yourself? Or do you normally buy your meat in a neat cellophane package at the grocery store, disconnected from its source and the processes that went into creating it?

 

[BogBot]

Regenerative agriculture is the answer. Which needs large numbers of grazing animals to work efficiently.

Meat consumption can be reduced but it will always be a huge part of our diet.

 

[koshari]

Nicest steak I have ever had was from my own farm. Had a mobile butcher come and slaughter, hang and butcher the animal. Those moo cows had quite a nice relaxed life until the reaper arrived. Had a genuine free range egg farm, never a cage or static housing, award winning chicken and duck eggs - Australias finest I might add ;-) Loved walking out in the morning and picking fruit of my trees, or seeing pumpkin just wind its way around my farm ..... those were the days.

Iam hearing you , check out this fantastic boy.

We have just joined our Angus mob with the B&Ws to do some pasture management whilst waiting for the hay contractor to come as its been too moist and 2 paddocks are locked up for hay and the fact that the bull has returned to the neighbors, one of the positive outcomes has been that the Angus's temperament have really improved as they are taking some tips from the Holstein Friesians steers that were hand reared and very comfortable with people, 3 months ago they never would have came right up to us like this.

 

[Heaps of fun]

I'm not sure that the bulk of the jobs created by industrialised meat production are the kind worth saving, to be honest.

Jeez, that's an easy thing to say about someone else's job.

 

[Tectonic]

Regenerative agriculture is the answer. Which needs large numbers of grazing animals to work efficiently.

Meat consumption can be reduced but it will always be a huge part of our diet.

Which is all well and good but even regenerative growers are guilty of overfeeding stock to reach sales targets, in my experience.

Ditching mass consumption and farming of animals will be a monumental undertaking globally, and take a long time.

 

[Themanbun]

Jeez, that's an easy thing to say about someone else's job.

The Children's Chimney Sweeps United supports this post.