Play Nice Random Chat Thread VI

[rickety]

I identify as a fat lazy bludger with too much time on his hands.

There's a few of us I reckon, should form a Union, the LFB, a dyslexics BLF

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

None of this has anything to do with what I linked to.

It is mostly relatable and here's why below.

Nah man, you were just trying to avoid the subject.

I had hoped we were past such accusations.

"Because it really doesn’t matter what occupation you look at, women are almost certainly going to earn less than the men doing that same job"

Working the same industry occupation doesn't mean the same exact job under the exact same circumstances, experience level, management level or job level within a particular industry. For example, a police captain is going to earn more than a constable, but they are still in the same industry. Or a principal of a large school is going to earn more than a principal of a smaller school (not including the public v private pay rates, with women traditionally gravitating towards the more flexible lower paying public sector). A senior gynecologist more than a junior one, a senior pilot flying international more than domestic is going to earn more, etc.

Another thing on the high paying job median stats. It tries to solve the hours dilemma by delineating part-time and full-time, but it doesn't completely work for some of the reasons I stated before.

My original post, therefore, does have some relevancy:
Most studies found that, on average, men worked longer weekly (extra) hours (especially in full-time roles), are more willing to give up their extra free time for promotions (women generally prefer a healthier balance), and are more aggressive in seeking promotions. They also found women generally prefer higher lifestyle, time off, holiday time, family time, and maternity leave flexibility, even within higher paying jobs, except for the really high echelons (which are a small number of people in total). Therefore, generally, women in the same industry just don't rise to the same levels of men.


You are never going to get perfect outcomes and I think we all want better outcomes for women in the higher levels, which can be achieved through some structural changes like I said above as well as a change in culture surrounding maternity leave, etc. The latter is going to be the hardest, but there has been some movement on that front with father-leave stuff.

 

[Merlin007]

Most studies found that, on average, men worked longer weekly hours, are more willing to give up their free time for promotions (women generally prefer a healthier balance), work in more dangerous industries (higher paying) and more aggressive in seeking promotions. They also found women generally choose to pursue lower paying jobs as they provide higher lifestyle, time off, holiday time, family time, and maternity leave flexibility. Higher paying long hour jobs just don’t provide that same flexibility and demand major family sacrifices across long periods.

Equal pay laws have long been in effect and you cannot manufacture perfect outcomes, especially when it is rooted in individual choice. The biggest structural improvement you can make is improvements to paid maternity leave and short/long term leave. Other improvements should also include greater industry pay for nurses and teachers, which are industries with strong female majorities.

hey just before we go back on topic, good to find another Hammers fan on here - hope we can keep Lingaard for the European campaign.

And back on topic, you're right to put to the range of perspectives on this - Judith Sloan (Flinders university among other places) has prosecuted the case for the issues of 'choice' that you raise.

However, econometric studies accounts for all of those variables, and they invariably find a residual effect of gender discrimination that can't be explained (except as gender discrimination).

KPMG (among others) have mainstreamed the issue - see https://home.kpmg/au/en/home/insights/2019/08/gender-pay-gap-economics.html. Their most recent study shows that the hourly wage gap is closing, but the proportion due to gender discrimination is actually increasing

And you're right, equal pay laws do exist - it's a very complex jurisdictional field, but various legal theorists argue tribunal decisions show further reform is needed

 

[Del191229]

It is mostly relatable and here's why below.



I had hoped we were past such accusations.

Working the same industry occupation doesn't mean the same exact job under the exact same circumstances, experience level, management level or job level within a particular industry. For example, a police captain is going to earn more than a constable, but they are still in the same industry. Or a principal of a large school is going to earn more than a principal of a smaller school (not including the public v private pay rates, with women traditionally gravitating towards the more flexible lower paying public sector). A senior gynecologist more than a junior one, a senior pilot flying international more than domestic is going to earn more, etc.

Another thing on the high paying job median stats. It tries to solve the hours dilemma by delineating part-time and full-time, but it doesn't completely work for some of the reasons I stated before.

My original post, therefore, does have some relevancy:
Most studies found that, on average, men worked longer weekly (extra) hours (especially in full-time roles), are more willing to give up their extra free time for promotions (women generally prefer a healthier balance), and are more aggressive in seeking promotions. They also found women generally prefer higher lifestyle, time off, holiday time, family time, and maternity leave flexibility, even within higher paying jobs, except for the really high echelons (which are a small number of people in total). Therefore, generally, women in the same industry just don't rise to the same levels of men.


You are never going to get perfect outcomes and I think we all want better outcomes for women in the higher levels, which can be achieved through some structural changes like I said above as well as a change in culture surrounding maternity leave, etc. The latter is going to be the hardest, but there has been some movement on that front with father-leave stuff.

You didn't read it did you?

All good.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

hey just before we go back on topic, good to find another Hammers fan on here - hope we can keep Lingaard for the European campaign.

And back on topic, you're right to put to the range of perspectives on this - Judith Sloan (Flinders university among other places) has prosecuted the case for the issues of 'choice' that you raise.

However, econometric studies accounts for all of those variables, and they invariably find a residual effect of gender discrimination that can't be explained (except as gender discrimination).

KPMG (among others) have mainstreamed the issue - see https://home.kpmg/au/en/home/insights/2019/08/gender-pay-gap-economics.html. Their most recent study shows that the hourly wage gap is closing, but the proportion due to gender discrimination is actually increasing

And you're right, equal pay laws do exist - it's a very complex jurisdictional field, but various legal theorists argue tribunal decisions show further reform is needed

Yep, definitely need striker support for Antonio soon as he isn't getting any younger. Our Czech boys are playing well. Coufal bullies wingers and Soueck is just plain reliable. CB's are always a worry, but I think we've got some good young kids coming through.


I definitely think it happens with regards to leave as well as occurs a fair amount at the higher levels the most, as there are a lot of egotistical men at the top of businesses. I think the pay issue gets conflated by all the various management and director roles with all different pay rates. I still think it is more of a choice-based issue, but I am not going to dismiss overt/covert discrimination flippantly either.

You didn't read it did you?

All good.

I engaged with its median stats, examples and arguments just fine, but happy to leave it as isn't exactly our fields of expertise and I've probably embarassed myself enough with my long-ass posts.

I just think the argument is a lot more nuanced than pure discrimination and that there is case for various major aspects of both arguments.

 

[Del191229]

I just think the argument is a lot more nuanced than pure discrimination and that there is case for condensing both arguments into one.

Agreed.

 

[Snake_Baker]

When you go on TV and say sorry about having a crank while on a zoom call

The bloke was jerking off and he wasn't aware that a camera was left on. He hasn't really committed any crime and there's no need for the generic "finding myself" bullshit that accompanies public figures when they make mistakes.

 

[Snake_Baker]

KPMG (among others) have mainstreamed the issue - see https://home.kpmg/au/en/home/insights/2019/08/gender-pay-gap-economics.html. Their most recent study shows that the hourly wage gap is closing, but the proportion due to gender discrimination is actually increasing

A single word that can turn statistics in to propaganda depending upon who's wielding it.

The word can simply mean "differentiate" as in red versus blue.

 

[Val Keating]

Most studies found that, on average, men worked longer weekly hours, are more willing to give up their free time for promotions (women generally prefer a healthier balance), work in more dangerous industries (higher paying) and more aggressive in seeking promotions. They also found women generally choose to pursue lower paying jobs as they provide higher lifestyle, time off, holiday time, family time, and maternity leave flexibility. Higher paying long hour jobs just don’t provide that same flexibility and demand major family sacrifices across long periods.

Equal pay laws have long been in effect and you cannot manufacture perfect outcomes, especially when it is rooted in individual choice. The biggest structural improvement you can make is improvements to paid maternity leave and short/long term leave. Other improvements should also include greater industry pay for nurses and teachers, which are industries with strong female majorities.

My wife is the hardest worker I’ve ever known, she’s on site a lot and then comes home and is on the computer answering emails and such till at least 10pm most nights (while I play fifa or watch telle). She’s also very well paid for it though, weather or not she’s paid as much as the men I have no idea.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

My wife is the hardest worker I’ve ever known, she’s on site a lot and then comes home and is on the computer answering emails and such till at least 10pm most nights (while I play fifa or watch telle). She’s also very well paid for it though, weather or not she’s paid as much as the men I have no idea.

Same with most of the women in my family, but that’s why I was careful with the generally term.

 

[Val Keating]

The bloke was jerking off and he wasn't aware that a camera was left on. He hasn't really committed any crime and there's no need for the generic "finding myself" bullshit that accompanies public figures when they make mistakes.

The public embarrassment would be way worse then losing his job over it.

 

[Snake_Baker]

The public embarrassment would be way worse then losing his job over it.

Agree.

It's a personal cyber security negligence issue. I certainly wouldn't have sacked the bloke for it.

 

[Val Keating]

Same with most of the women in my family, but that’s why I was careful with the generally term.

It’s one of the reasons I hate salaries. If she was paid by the hour it’d be way more. The companies know this. They put them on salaries and then expect them to do work that can’t be done in 8 hours of work.

 

[Snake_Baker]

It’s one of the reasons I hate salaries. If she was paid by the hour it’d be way more. The companies know this. They put them on salaries and then expect them to do work that can’t be done in 8 hours of work.

If the lady feels she is underpaid she can always hit up management and/or look at the job market.

Who pays $500 to a seller that is happy to settle for $350? No one.

 

[Ligma]

My wife is the hardest worker I’ve ever known, she’s on site a lot and then comes home and is on the computer answering emails and such till at least 10pm most nights (while I play fifa or watch telle). She’s also very well paid for it though, weather or not she’s paid as much as the men I have no idea.

Same with my Mum she works so hard and is having a very hard time at work because of bullying and jealousy from the boutique manager. She is a natural at maintaining wealthy and paying customers and she shouldn’t have to go through workplace bullying because of it.

 

[Val Keating]

If the lady feels she is underpaid she can always hit up management and/or look at the job market.

Who pays $500 to a seller that is happy to settle for $350? No one.

She gets job offers constantly. She’s happy where she is. Tbh, she’s the sort of person that would be bored shitless with a 9 to 5 type gig. On the rare occasion that we stay home on the weekend she’s climbing the walls by 11am.

 

[Snake_Baker]

She gets job offers constantly. She’s happy where she is. Tbh, she’s the sort of person that would be bored shitless with a 9 to 5 type gig. On the rare occasion that we stay home on the weekend she’s climbing the walls by 11am.

Okay, then it's choice. A factor where I think you will find women are highly represented in comparison to men. Different gender traits revealing themselves yet again.

The whole "victimology" agenda is facilitated by a very small, well funded, and significantly politically & bureaucratically over represented clique.

 

[Val Keating]

Same with my Mum she works so hard and is having a very hard time at work because of bullying and jealousy from the boutique manager. She is a natural at maintaining wealthy and paying customers and she shouldn’t have to go through workplace bullying because of it.

Have you ever heard of a bloke named Jocko Wilink? He’s got a podcast and talks about this sort of stuff all the time. I can’t do him justice but his general message with dealing with people like the ones bullying your mum, he basically says “hey you’re not happy with this, what do you want to do, you’re in charge now.” Usually they **** it up and it comes back to you, and if they succeed, that’s great too, because now you’ve taken pressure off yourself and can focus on other things like growing the company clients.

Damn wish I could find the clip

Edit- This isn’t the clip I was thinking of but I think it’s relevant

 

[Val Keating]

Okay, then it's choice. A factor where I think you will find women are highly represented in comparison to men. Different gender traits revealing themselves yet again.

The whole "victimology" agenda is facilitated by a very small, well funded, and significantly politically & bureaucratically over represented clique.

I don’t know what you mean?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Drag the campaigner over the counter and smash them.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I don’t know what you mean?

Women are more likely to choose career options due to contentment with the work over financial reward, in comparison to men.

 

[Val Keating]

Drag the campaigner over the counter and smash them.

Lol. That would definitely be in Jocko’s kick bag.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Lol. That would definitely be in Jocko’s kick bag.

Bullies are like a red rag to me, and I don't give a **** about who they are. I'll call any campaigner out.

The moment anyone tolerates their shit, an endless cycle begins.

 

[Ligma]

Both my parents are very hard workers, does their hard work reflect what they get in their pay? Hell no.

Covid has made it so hard for my dad to find a high paying sustainable job. Job keeper helped us tremendously but it’s not a long term solution.

My dad has to do Uber nearly every night to make more income for our family.

 

[Val Keating]

Women are more likely to choose career options due to contentment with the work over financial reward, in comparison to men.

That’s an extremely general observation