Play Nice Random Chat Thread VII

[Makeshift Park]

a self proclaimed activist group, or financial terrorists

Crikey, that's some interesting synonym correlation.

You reckon self-proclaimed activists equate to terrorists in the financial world?

You should probably warn the Labor party they've repeatedly preselected a financial terrorist in Wentworth.

If you use your own money or own shares to hurt the company that is a moral standpoint, but to profit from someone else's shares by groups like this it isn't a gamble, they know well in advance they are going to sell enough shares to cause the run on the company and they are doing it with someone else's shares.

Obviously its underpinned by self-interest and there will be losers.

But there can be a moral dimension in a macro sense because shortselling helps prevent bubbles.

By all means, people should put a lot more pressure on the government to police and enforce misinformation reported by companies on the ASX, but they need to get rid of shorting.

I agree with most of this sentence, but governments around the world have tried so many times to ban it and failed.

Can you point to a sustainable example where banning shortselling carte blanche has worked?

 

[Ligma]

Best unis for sports science?

I would go to Deakin but it’s really far by PTV.

Has anyone heard good things about Swinburne? Still a bit far but way accessible by PTV.

I know La trobe is good but just want to see what others are like

 

[koshari]

Brewery tour tomorrow, starting at st andrews beach,

 

[Tas]

Crikey, that's some interesting synonym correlation.

You reckon self-proclaimed activists equate to terrorists in the financial world?

"Resort to terrorizing methods as a means of coercion, or the state of fear and submission produced by the prevalence of such methods."

If the shoe fits.

You should probably warn the Labor party they've repeatedly preselected a financial terrorist in Wentworth.

I don't have a high opinion of politicians.

Obviously its underpinned by self-interest and there will be losers.

But there can be a moral dimension in a macro sense because shortselling helps prevent bubbles.

Sure, if you want to get into hypotheticals then murder prevents the crippling effects of old age, I sincerely hope it isn't used as a cure though.

Let's not obfuscate the real reason people short.

Even when activist short selling provides worthwhile market news, this information has been acquired, the shorting arrangement put in place and then the information is made public as they commence their selling of the shares, this compounds what is a normal market reaction with what is the market reaction when a very large and sustained campaign to continually dump shares exacerbates reactions and it influences people to also dump shares to avoid being stuck with a plummeting stock.

To me at least, it falls in the same basket as buying a stock low and selling it high is good, but if you knew in advance information that the general public wasn't aware of then it's insider trading, and that is against the law. I think insider trading is less harmful than short selling because your actions aren't forcing loss on any other shareholder and purchasing stock is beneficial for the company. Yet this is more aggressively policed.

I agree with most of this sentence, but governments around the world have tried so many times to ban it and failed.

Can you point to a sustainable example where banning shortselling carte blanche has worked?

Sure, South Korea's national pension service, one of the world's largest pension funds, ended the practice of lending out shares for short-selling and did an analysis of periods during SK when shorting was suspended and didn't find any benefit to them or the SK share market as a result of shorting.

Stock lending and short-selling: evidence from national pension service in Korea | Emerald Insight

1

www.emerald.com

SK have had only recently allowed shorting again, after a long suspension of it due to covid and other reasons, since allowed very restrictive shorting their FSS has already started an investigation into Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and UBS for their short selling in the Korean market and the negative effect it has on their stock market.

I understand the theory behind the benefits of shorting, similar theories to why naked shorting has theoretical benefits, but for similar reasons as to why the GFC occurred, nobody takes realistic accountability for the lack of decent moral values in people. People who run hedge funds are psychopaths, if we put the world nuclear arsenal under their command nukes would be flying 24/7.

 

[Tas]

 

[Val Keating]

Has he made any comments about the Russian invasion of Ukraine yet?

 

[DesertRoo]

Hmmmm, How does short selling prevent "fraudulent reporting"?

In Australia it is against the law for short sellers to give out fraudulent information but in America anyone can have "an opinion" so there short sellers can lie through their teeth and attempt to GameStop any company that is listed.

How much money did people lose due to the Gamestop shenanigans? $27 billion or so. They employ something like 12,000 people, it impacts a lot of lives, particularly in America where a job can mean having health insurance or not.

If you have a stock and you think it stinks or has no future just sell it and move on. I don't think Shorting has any real value other than to incentivise people to work against a company to ensure an investment in it's demise isn't a bad or risky investment. It makes it too hard to regulate or police.



I think the market will be fine without shorting, they had to ban naked shorting after the GFC in 2008, even in whacky America.



It is as worthless as most other currencies that have moved away from the gold standard, we are facing high inflation all over the world because countries just kept printing money, if Australia just keeps printing money and doesn't reign in inflation then what money you have will eventually be worthless. If you think it isn't possible in an advanced economy then Turkey is descending down this path of madness as we speak, what is their inflation rate, almost 90% or something horrific like that.

Crypto currency has no state, it isn't used to prop up a failing economy, pay for pointless wars, pay for incompetent pandemic policies, etc. They can control the volume or rate of the currency, it isn't possible to fraudulently create the currency and the blockchain system and lack of centralisation means it can't be robbed or have it's records destroyed. It is actually very innovative and it is no surprise someone like China hates cryptocurrency because it is much harder to oppress people who have money stashed somewhere they can't steal it from them or can't prevent people leaving by holding their money hostage, like they do at present.

I think most cryptocurrency was definitely overvalued, I stayed out of it because I found it too much like gambling, nobody really knows what it's value should be and it fluctuates too wildly for my liking. To say it is worthless is not accurate. It just isn't stable enough for my liking... for a currency.

A decent listen if you’ve got the time, explains what short sellers are,

 

[Tas]

Has he made any comments about the Russian invasion of Ukraine yet?

Snowden? Hahaha, he is in exile in a regime almost as bad, of course he isn't going to say anything. He will end up on the front line or in Siberia. They stab their own people with plutonium tipped umbrellas, they aren't going to cop lip from an outcast.

I think all he said was that he called it wrong, that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine.

 

[DesertRoo]

It’s really not that big a deal.

For a start, they didn’t get into crypto itself – they invested in a trading platform.

And it was from a part of their overall portfolio dedicated to speculative investments, at the time limited to just 3% of the overall assets of the fund. It’s actually really prudent of them to carve the speculative stuff away from the rest of their investments, as it protects the overwhelming majority of their assets from being affected. And in that 3%, they also invested in the likes of Canva and SpaceX, so despite recent events in the share market, they’ve had some winners. Their target initial investment is no more than $250 million, so even if this investment goes to zero, it’s about 0.1% of the total value of the pension fund.

Nobody’s going to jail for that.

of course no one’s going to jail, it was a throw away line, like they should just be allowed to invest in silk rd,
Its the same premise, we don’t actually buy or sell anything but they’re facilitating a scam.

 

[koshari]

on our way,

 

[Val Keating]

of course no one’s going to jail, it was a throw away line, like they should just be allowed to invest in silk rd,
Its the same premise, we don’t actually buy or sell anything but they’re facilitating a scam.

Is this what you’re discussing?



Did FTX just rip everyone off? People should go to jail for that.

 

[DesertRoo]

Is this what you’re discussing?



Did FTX just rip everyone off? People should go to jail for that.

Yes, that’s the company at the centre

 

[Val Keating]

Yes, that’s the company at the centre

Dude just ripped $6B

 

[Tectonic]

Shorting has to happen, otherwise companies can get away with fraudulent reporting.
It’s the markets own safety net.

Bitcoin is effectively worthless anyway. It’s value is zero, it creates nothing apart from perceived wealth. Latest digital ponzi scheme.

I'd argue tether is the real fraud in all this. It facilitates everything. Without tether Bitcoin would be very different.

Is this what you’re discussing?



Did FTX just rip everyone off? People should go to jail for that.

Yeah looks like Sam bankman-fried (what a name seriously) lied, ftx and Sam's venture capitalist firm Alameda research have been gambling away people's deposits, and ftx has no reserves to pay out it's customers.

Watch the price of Solana over the next couple weeks. Will be interesting to watch it all unfold. Sad for retail investors though.

 

[Val Keating]

This is a good read for knuckle heads like me to understand what’s going on.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[Val Keating]

I'd argue tether is the real fraud in all this. It facilitates everything. Without tether Bitcoin would be very different.

Yeah looks like Sam bankman-fried (what a name seriously) lied, ftx and Sam's venture capitalist firm Alameda research have been gambling away people's deposits, and ftx has no reserves to pay out it's customers.

Watch the price of Solana over the next couple weeks. Will be interesting to watch it all unfold. Sad for retail investors though.

“Bankman-Fried himself, whose personal wealth has collapsed from $16 billion to what may now be a negative number when accounting for his personal debt.”

OMFG.

 

[Tectonic]

“Bankman-Fried himself, whose personal wealth has collapsed from $16 billion to what may now be a negative number when accounting for his personal debt.”

OMFG.

16 billion dollars in speculative magic beans lol

I'm sure he's dumping it all on the markets as we speak to recoup what he can and he'll settle comfortably in the Caribbean or something

 

[DesertRoo]

I'd argue tether is the real fraud in all this. It facilitates everything. Without tether Bitcoin would be very different.

Yeah looks like Sam bankman-fried (what a name seriously) lied, ftx and Sam's venture capitalist firm Alameda research have been gambling away people's deposits, and ftx has no reserves to pay out it's customers.

Watch the price of Solana over the next couple weeks. Will be interesting to watch it all unfold. Sad for retail investors though.

We can do a very simple exercise,
What’s the actual value of a Bitcoin?
I mean we can easily work out it’s market capitalisation, we can easily plug some figures in to see the probability of it’s going up or down.
But that’s actually irrelevant.

What’s the actual value, how did it get there.
If we look at something like currency, we can look at inflation figures, raw minerals, jobless rates, political situation etc to come up with a figure and measure it against another currency.
You simply can’t do that with any crypto yet.

Whats the research someone’s going to do with Bitcoin? we started following some edgelord on a newsgroup, he seems to have the in with Elon, as soon as Elon reposts this edgelords memestock, we’re going to the moon, yolo.

 

[Val Keating]

16 billion dollars in speculative magic beans lol

I'm sure he's dumping it all on the markets as we speak to recoup what he can and he'll settle comfortably in the Caribbean or something

True. He would have turned them into physical things like houses and cars but I imagine that’s all about to be taken away.

I’ve read that he owes $650M to lenders and owns $450M of Robinhood making him worth negative $200M in terms of real value.

 

[DesertRoo]

True. He would have turned them into physical things like houses and cars but I imagine that’s all about to be taken away.

I’ve read that he owes $650M to lenders and owns $450M of Robinhood making him worth negative $200M in terms of real value.

Is this like an absolute broke Skase, living on the streets of Majorca, giving wristies for cheeseburgers?

 

[Tectonic]

We can do a very simple exercise,
What’s the actual value of a Bitcoin?
I mean we can easily work out it’s market capitalisation, we can easily plug some figures in to see the probability of it’s going up or down.
But that’s actually irrelevant.

What’s the actual value, how did it get there.
If we look at something like currency, we can look at inflation figures, raw minerals, jobless rates, political situation etc to come up with a figure and measure it against another currency.
You simply can’t do that with any crypto yet.

Whats the research someone’s going to do with Bitcoin? we started following some edgelord on a newsgroup, he seems to have the in with Elon, as soon as Elon reposts this edgelords memestock, we’re going to the moon, yolo.

Which is why I said tether is the problem.
Bitfinex/tether continuously pump USDT into the market to buy Bitcoin and inflate the price of all cryptos and claim each tether is backed by $1usd in the bank, but they've never shown an attestation.

Every single time there's a Bitcoin pump it's preceded by millions of USDT being brought into circulation.

Put aside your opinion on the use cases, that simply doesn't matter right now. It hasn't mattered since like 2013. It's all about institutions using tether to pump prices, getting retail to buy in, and then dumping on them.

I'd be surprised if anyone besides the red laser eye profile pics on Twitter give a toss about the tech. Everyone just wants to 10x their money but they forget it's a casino and the house always has the last say in things.


Until they get too greedy as happened to a bunch of investment firms this year

No idea how they can bungle it so badly when they buy into a project at 22c a coin and it gets to 250 dollars but here we are

The downfall of Three Arrows Capital (3AC): What went wrong?

The past few weeks have been turbulent, even for hardened market participants. The crypto market lost massive value, and some players were wiped out. However, this time, there are also big names among these players, such as Singapore-based crypto hedge fund Three Arrows Capital (3AC). 3AC was...

cryptoslate.com

FTX (FTT) May Have Been Pushed To Brink Of Collapse Due To 'Secretive' Alameda Bailout, Says Crypto Analyst

It appears that FTX (CRYPTO: FTT) may have provided a large-scale bailout to Alameda in the second quarter, which could be the reason for i

www.benzinga.com

Tom Brady and other super wealthy investors lost big money in the FTX crypto collapse

Investors like NFL star Brady are said to have lost large amounts of money following the FTX crypto exchange's liquidity crisis.

fortune.com

 

[Tectonic]

True. He would have turned them into physical things like houses and cars but I imagine that’s all about to be taken away.

I’ve read that he owes $650M to lenders and owns $450M of Robinhood making him worth negative $200M in terms of real value.

We've come a long way from the days of the wallstreetbets GameStop pump

Wonder how any of the investors would be able to recoup any of that

 

[Tectonic]

10 months since this and I wonder how many people have lost everything

 

[DesertRoo]

Which is why I said tether is the problem.
Bitfinex/tether continuously pump USDT into the market to buy Bitcoin and inflate the price of all cryptos and claim each tether is backed by $1usd in the bank, but they've never shown an attestation.

Every single time there's a Bitcoin pump it's preceded by millions of USDT being brought into circulation.

Put aside your opinion on the use cases, that simply doesn't matter right now. It hasn't mattered since like 2013. It's all about institutions using tether to pump prices, getting retail to buy in, and then dumping on them.

I'd be surprised if anyone besides the red laser eye profile pics on Twitter give a toss about the tech. Everyone just wants to 10x their money but they forget it's a casino and the house always has the last say in things.


Until they get too greedy as happened to a bunch of investment firms this year

No idea how they can bungle it so badly when they buy into a project at 22c a coin and it gets to 250 dollars but here we are

The downfall of Three Arrows Capital (3AC): What went wrong?

The past few weeks have been turbulent, even for hardened market participants. The crypto market lost massive value, and some players were wiped out. However, this time, there are also big names among these players, such as Singapore-based crypto hedge fund Three Arrows Capital (3AC). 3AC was...

cryptoslate.com

FTX (FTT) May Have Been Pushed To Brink Of Collapse Due To 'Secretive' Alameda Bailout, Says Crypto Analyst

It appears that FTX (CRYPTO: FTT) may have provided a large-scale bailout to Alameda in the second quarter, which could be the reason for i

www.benzinga.com

Tom Brady and other super wealthy investors lost big money in the FTX crypto collapse

Investors like NFL star Brady are said to have lost large amounts of money following the FTX crypto exchange's liquidity crisis.

fortune.com

I guess that’s the thing, if you understood the tech, you’d understand how actually laughable the situation is.

any financial adviser who recommends buying it should be reported to the watchdog for dereliction of duty. #throwawayline

 

[DesertRoo]

Worthwhile read on the topic

Geoffrey Huntley: “A lot of people are being scammed” – The Observatorial

observatorial.com