Discussion Random Discussion

[bergholt]

Because it costs a shitload to store a minute amount of energy.
Cashed up households might do it, but it makes no sense for the poor or a business.

Wouldn't the government fund it, the same way the government subsidises the construction and maintenance of coal power plants? (I assume.)

 

[CursingFijian]

Perth, March 1907.

Collingwood supporters at 1.44

The guy trying to take his jacket off looked like a Melbourne supporter. The one that clocked him when both his arms were still pinned in his jacket sleeves...now that guy looks like a Collingwood supporter!

 

[bergholt]

It's practically impossible to store lots of energy in one place longterm.

My mate works at a company that does a molten salt thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

Molten salt no good for backyards but there seem to be other thermal energy storage things which would be?

 

[Crusty Undies]

My mate works at a company that does a molten salt thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

Molten salt no good for backyards but there seem to be other thermal energy storage things which would be?

From what I understand of my relatively limited physics knowledge the only conventional method we have of storing a lot of power is with a traditional type of battery with resistors (or in power lines). The issue is the relationship between energy loss and current. As current increases so does energy loss. Batteries have to have high current due to the resistors so until an Elon Musk designs a new type of battery I'm not really sure it's possible. Interestingly though voltage has a proportional relationship to current too where it increases as current decreases which is why we have high voltage power lines and step-up/step-down points.

It's very different for backyards though, conventional batteries actually serve pretty well in backyards due to not storing a very large amount of energy. I was talking more about power generation plants and why batteries for volatile energy sources aren't really viable. I don't really know much about alternatives for a delocalized power system sorry.

It's very interesting stuff though, thermal storage. I don't really know how they'd transition between heat and power but I'm sure they've got their methods. It's entirely possible I just don't know about it and it is viable haha.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

China and India are out performing the US by a fair margin in renewables. Most modern economies are moving Toit despite the climate because it's become cheaper to build and will continue to do so. Leading the tech means they have a commodity too.

As far as politicians go the 4 year election cycle and the deliberate move towards combat politics has just about stalled debate on anything that looks like it's considered left or right wing policy.

Solar and wind are no brainers in Oz, and should be obvious policy. Daylesford/ Hepburn a small town put in one wind generation tower and it runs the whole town and puts energy back into the grid. It was community owned project.

https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/18/technology/china-us-clean-energy-solar-farm/index.html
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018...-spent-on-clean-energy-in-2017-china-spent-3/

Who cares Gringo.
Using reknewables is not the issue.

Fact: China are producing more than 25% of the worlds CO2
Fact : USA are producing 15%
15 of the 28 European countries produce 7%
India 6%
Russia 5%
Japan 3%
Brazil 2%
Germany 2%
Indonesia, Canada, Iran, Mexico, SOuth Korea 1-2%
Austraia 1.3%

Yes we are a lot per capita ....but ....its a bloody big country and YES geography makes a massive difference.
AND
Per capita doesn't cause global warming. TONNES causes glogal warming.
If we completely stop producing CO2 and stuff up our economy in the process.... THE PLANET IS STILL STUFFED

 

[gringo2011]

An aluminium Smelter would run for 6 minutes on the huge battery that Elron is installing in South Australia.

You would think most smelters would be run on furnaces. Anyway you can run them during the day with solar and then the storage is irrelevant. The way our industry is going they will be in China soon enough anyway.

 

[gringo2011]

Who cares Gringo.
Using reknewables is not the issue.

Fact: China are producing more than 25% of the worlds CO2
Fact : USA are producing 15%
15 of the 28 European countries produce 7%
India 6%
Russia 5%
Japan 3%
Brazil 2%
Germany 2%
Indonesia, Canada, Iran, Mexico, SOuth Korea 1-2%
Austraia 1.3%

Yes we are a lot per capita ....but ....its a bloody big country and YES geography makes a massive difference.
AND
Per capita doesn't cause global warming. TONNES causes glogal warming.
If we completely stop producing CO2 and stuff up our economy in the process.... THE PLANET IS STILL STUFFED

The worlds economies won't stop because of changing to renewables any more than changing from horse and cart to cars did. It's already going that way. It's inevitable and everywhere else is already moving towards it. China is making a very large amount of the worlds consumables and as such their industry is the worst. They are moving towards renewables because it makes financial sense.

The Australian government is playing culture wars on the issue not actually having any reason to challenge it. The internet has probably been responsible for a bigger shift in the way the world runs than renewable energy will ever have. We can't stop C02 emissions but it's easy to legislate towards reducing it, that's why governments need to act not sit around playing games.

Europe has a much better record with legislating and things like charging more registration for higher polluting cars means that people buy smaller more economical cars for example. Having targets encourages technology and innovation spending which then make a commodity you can sell around the world.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You would think most smelters would be run on furnaces. Anyway you can run them during the day with solar and then the storage is irrelevant. The way our industry is going they will be in China soon enough anyway.

Nope. Aluminium plants run full time, shut them down and they are stuffed.

 

[gringo2011]

A lot of people don't realize how "small" the volume of spent fuel is.
You could backfill it in the uranium mine without any issue.

It remains a contaminant for years. Ground water and aquifers end up getting polluted. In places like Kakadu where it's mined the water would make it impossible.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-waste-lethal-trash-or-renewable-energy-source/

 

[gringo2011]

Nope. Aluminium plants run full time, shut them down and they are stuffed.

Run an onsite gas turbine then.

 

[gringo2011]

Which one of you is this?

Man I want to know where he gets his weed, must be primo.

 

[gringo2011]

My mate works at a company that does a molten salt thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

Molten salt no good for backyards but there seem to be other thermal energy storage things which would be?

I was in Bolzano recently and saw that storage thing is a tourist attraction.

 

[St Kilda Death]

Who cares Gringo.
Using reknewables is not the issue.

Fact: China are producing more than 25% of the worlds CO2
Fact : USA are producing 15%
15 of the 28 European countries produce 7%
India 6%
Russia 5%
Japan 3%
Brazil 2%
Germany 2%
Indonesia, Canada, Iran, Mexico, SOuth Korea 1-2%
Austraia 1.3%

Yes we are a lot per capita ....but ....its a bloody big country and YES geography makes a massive difference.
AND
Per capita doesn't cause global warming. TONNES causes glogal warming.
If we completely stop producing CO2 and stuff up our economy in the process.... THE PLANET IS STILL STUFFED

Im assuming you are over 50.


The argument that we shouldn't work towards wind/solar and away from coal because china and india aren't is childish.
"Well he's doing it!"
Does that make it right?
Would you jump of a cliff?

 

[MUFKilda]

China and India each have a population of around 1.5 billion, with hundreds of millions still having a subsistence existence in the most extreme poverty. It's an apples and oranges comparison, as the developed world, especially the USA, is responsible for much higher CO2 emissions per capita. Of course China and India must play a key role in tackling climate change, given they account for almost half the world's population, and China, for example, is the world leader in solar power. At the same time those two nations need to lift enormous numbers out of dire poverty, which they are unable to do by renewables alone at this point. Nevertheless, they are making a bigger effort than the USA right now.

The Trump administration, pointing the finger at China whilst they actively deny climate change science, is completely irresponsible. China and India do not deny that man made climate change is happening, unlike the richest country on earth. It was the USA who pulled out of the Paris agreement, not China and India.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Run an onsite gas turbine then.

those little units are shitful for putting out emmisions.
so you advocate everyone that needs a reliable power source run their own generator ?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Im assuming you are over 50.
View attachment 583563

The argument that we shouldn't work towards wind/solar and away from coal because china and india aren't is childish.
"Well he's doing it!"
Does that make it right?
Would you jump of a cliff?

No why would i jump of a cliff? You're the one on the bandwagon.
Tell me how us doubling our power prices to reduce our 1% of the global emissions is going to help anything.
Best you can hope for is a bit of feel good.. Hey We're doomed but we did our part to stop it.

 

[gringo2011]

those little units are shitful for putting out emmisions.
so you advocate everyone that needs a reliable power source run their own generator ?

I think gas is pretty efficient as far as putting out low carbon goes. You would be able to operate a dual system which means you can run 24 hours with a bulk or solar/ wind and back up generation from gas. There is always a way, it might be expensive to set that up and I think most smelters are on their way out of Australia anyway. Most are only kept because we have government money keeping them here. Like our iron ore processing it will end up someone else problem any way.

 

[gringo2011]

No why would i jump of a cliff? You're the one on the bandwagon.
Tell me how us doubling our power prices to reduce our 1% of the global emissions is going to help anything.
Best you can hope for is a bit of feel good.. Hey We're doomed but we did our part to stop it.

Renewables doesn't double our power. The companies scammed the legislation where they charge for line upgrades etc to the maximum amount. The privatisation of power so that shareholders need to make more money every year also makes it more expensive. Selling our gas for nothing overseas and charging more here than they pay retail cost more etc. There are easy ways to bring prices down but the major parties are addicted to the political donations of the major power companies and industry bodies.

 

[St Kilda Death]

No why would i jump of a cliff? You're the one on the bandwagon.
Tell me how us doubling our power prices to reduce our 1% of the global emissions is going to help anything.
Best you can hope for is a bit of feel good.. Hey We're doomed but we did our part to stop it.

I don't want to double my power bill.
I want to pay less, for more cheaply made energy, with less millionares taking their cut of the money before it falls on me.. BUT..
That's up to the fatcats in parliament, but that's another issue altogether.

How reducing our emmisions helps is by setting an example.
We are one of the most civilized societies in the world. We should be setting an example.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think gas is pretty efficient as far as putting out low carbon goes. You would be able to operate a dual system which means you can run 24 hours with a bulk or solar/ wind and back up generation from gas. There is always a way, it might be expensive to set that up and I think most smelters are on their way out of Australia anyway. Most are only kept because we have government money keeping them here. Like our iron ore processing it will end up someone else problem any way.

you can operate a dual system for sure, it costs the price of a single gas system + the cost of your renewables, so most businisses would stop with the gas rather than double the capital investment.

Gas can be efficient, but thats not to say it is, a lot of the recent gas turbines built in australia are the cheapest ( shittiest ) ones.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I don't want to double my power bill.
I want to pay less, for more cheaply made energy, with less millionares taking their cut of the money before it falls on me.. BUT..
That's up to the fatcats in parliament, but that's another issue altogether.

How reducing our emmisions helps is by setting an example.
We are one of the most civilized societies in the world. We should be setting an example.

I call bullshit on the whole stupid setting an example argument.
Its crap.
There is no reason to believe that anyone else in the world would give a rats about what we do with our 1% of the emissions. Our country is already at a economic disadvantage due to geographical conditions, we seem hell bent in stacking up as many man made reasons for us to slip back into the third world.

We don't have any technological advantage, and we need to wait until all the technology is available for sale. Hell we couldn't even build a bog standard desalination plant or a train ticketing system at a globally competitive price.

The captain of a footy club sets an example by working hard, but he's not stupid enough to take a 50% pay cut.

 

[bergholt]

We don't have any technological advantage, and we need to wait until all the technology is available for sale.

We could have had a technological advantage. If we'd put in the work 10-15 years ago, we could have world-leading renewable energy tech right now, bringing in real export money.

Hell we couldn't even build a bog standard desalination plant or a train ticketing system at a globally competitive price.

I mean, that's partly because we have the equal highest standard of living in the world, which means that our wage bills are as high as anywhere.

But I agree with your basic point. We're not globally good at anything at all. I have no idea where our economy is going to be in 20-30 years. If we're relying on the big banks, big consulting firms, public sector to drive it (as it seems) then we'll be in the toilet before long, given the calibre of person who succeeds in those places.

Here's a challenge. Name 5 Australian companies who are amongst the top few in the world in their market. Any market. I can't think of many myself.

 

[gringo2011]

I call bullshit on the whole stupid setting an example argument.
Its crap.
There is no reason to believe that anyone else in the world would give a rats about what we do with our 1% of the emissions. Our country is already at a economic disadvantage due to geographical conditions, we seem hell bent in stacking up as many man made reasons for us to slip back into the third world.

It's going to happen it's just a matter of when. We should have been increasing the renewable component already but lack of policy direction has held us back. The complaining about others not doing anything is false unless you use the US as an example, they are rogue nation as far as climate policy goes and it's more to do with the proliferation of wealthy power companies that are owner there.

We are in a position where we built really expensive coal fired generators from the public purse in the mid 20th century, past politicians sold our assets and we bought our electricity that was supplied at near cost back for much much more from the new owners. Now the old generators are past their use by date we haven't got companies lining up to build new ones.

We should have spent 10 years building up much more renewable capacity but governments didn't allow industry to know what was happening so very little did beside some government funded projects and a few like AGL who saw it as cheaper to invest in some for tax breaks than renew the CFPSs.

Now we have the worst situation where the renewables aren't there, we have a deficit because we have more and more people wanting power, houses are getting more consumptive with technology and there is no direction still because it's a political issue that is divisive but popular with certain swinging voters.

Coal fired stations are being phased out al over the world as the cost of wind and solar drops. The base load is an issue still but not doing anything is like burying your head and hoping when you pull it up things will have improved.

It really shouldn't be a political issue, we need government investment in something and the rest of the world aren't building coal generators. We burnt most of our black coal in Victoria and burn brown coal mostly now and once that goes expensive coal seam gas or natural gas need to be used which coasts money.

We sell all our liquid natural gas and are soon going to be the worlds biggest supplier but don't save it for ourselves and take hardly any royalties for it. It's easy to make policy that reserves that gas for our own needs before any gets sold.

 

[gringo2011]

We could have had a technological advantage. If we'd put in the work 10-15 years ago, we could have world-leading renewable energy tech right now, bringing in real export money.



I mean, that's partly because we have the equal highest standard of living in the world, which means that our wage bills are as high as anywhere.

But I agree with your basic point. We're not globally good at anything at all. I have no idea where our economy is going to be in 20-30 years. If we're relying on the big banks, big consulting firms, public sector to drive it (as it seems) then we'll be in the toilet before long, given the calibre of person who succeeds in those places.

Here's a challenge. Name 5 Australian companies who are amongst the top few in the world in their market. Any market. I can't think of many myself.

They had a list of famous Aussies that weren't born here on SEN the other day. We don't even produce our own sports, music or movie stars.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Renewables doesn't double our power. The companies scammed the legislation where they charge for line upgrades etc to the maximum amount. The privatisation of power so that shareholders need to make more money every year also makes it more expensive. Selling our gas for nothing overseas and charging more here than they pay retail cost more etc. There are easy ways to bring prices down but the major parties are addicted to the political donations of the major power companies and industry bodies.

Renewables double the capital cost.