Discussion Random Discussion

[Periphery]

Prohibition has never worked. Police are almost entirely reactionary in nature. Punitive punishment is not a good deterrent.

Fix the underlying social issues creating the crime and you'll do a lot more to stop crime than harsher bail laws, more police powers or some doomed to fail war on drugs.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Prohibition has never worked. Police are almost entirely reactionary in nature. Punitive punishment is not a good deterrent.

Fix the underlying social issues creating the crime and you'll do a lot more to stop crime than harsher bail laws, more police powers or some doomed to fail war on drugs.

So we let the criminals loose to commit their crimes on the innocent, until we can convince them to stop?
There are dead people. The guy was out on bail.
Obviously the poor guy is a victim of society and we need to halp fix his personal circumstances.
The dead people are just rotton luck.

 

[Periphery]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Good work.

If only the judges and judicial system had all the knowledge of the exact details of every case that you do. Then surely they'd be able to predict the future and keep the bad guys behind bars forever and we'd live in some crime free utopian paradise where only good people are free to walk the streets.

 

[joop]

A serious question (not having a dig, I think it is sad for a lot of these people) but what do you do for the homeless who aren't interested in housing because one of the conditions for housing is that they have to be clean. When housing has been approved they have turned it down because they would rather stay on drugs. I bought some food for a homeless person who was collecting money and he looked at it, rattled his cup at me and walked away.(yes, I know, I shouldn't have presumed to have offered him money but I work too damned hard to just give my money away)

You find me one homeless person who doesn't want housing and then we can have that conversation.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Good work.

If only the judges and judicial system had all the knowledge of the exact details of every case that you do. Then surely they'd be able to predict the future and keep the bad guys behind bars forever and we'd live in some crime free utopian paradise where only good people are free to walk the streets.

Yes , when the police recommend detention, its far more important to err on the side of leniency.

 

[joop]

I am serious. Melbourne was a great place to live, compared to other cities it is probably still the best. I just don't want what is happening now to become the norm. I don't really want to be bashed in my bed for the keys to my '98 Hilux, is it too much to ask? And your right, I am living a rather sheltered life in Mission Beach FNQ. A place where I don't need to lock the house or car, just like Melbourne was for me growing up. It is quiet, sometimes too quiet.

What is happening now? How come you didn't bring this up until yesterday after what happened at Bourke street?
Because you like so many others have this ridiculous knee jerk reaction.
Melbourne wasn't a great place to live, it is a great place to live. And I can safely say that as someone who lives in the inner north, and if you think I'm going to back down against someone who's sitting up on the beach in North Queensland reading glorified trash newspapers and watching the 'news' you can think again.

 

[joop]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Good work.

If only the judges and judicial system had all the knowledge of the exact details of every case that you do. Then surely they'd be able to predict the future and keep the bad guys behind bars forever and we'd live in some crime free utopian paradise where only good people are free to walk the streets.

Just lock them all up, then there will be no crime.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

You find me one homeless person who doesn't want housing and then we can have that conversation.

There are a lot of genuine homeless people and also a lot of people homeless cos they are down and out junkies who cant or dont want to get clean.
There was a news report on the ABC a while ago that quite a few homeless people get offered accommodation in country towns but knock it back because getting drugs and begging for money is pretty tough in a small country town so they only want inner city accommodation.
This ISNT the majority of course.
But there are indeed some homeless who knock back housing.

 

[Plumber66]

Until you learn how to fix stupid, you won't change the world.

There are those who are lost due to their circumstances and those who are just stupid and make the wrong choices.

Even the stupid can probably trace back to why they are stupid. What is so lacking in their life that makes them turn to drugs?

Bad parenting? Lack of education? Lack of self respect as a result of both.

How about a macho society? Or perhaps being raised in house where violence us the norm? Sadly, the ignorant don't know any better and the weak too afraid to speak out.

Or is it just society that has lost it's way? We are getting ruder and more selfish.
Our moral compass is way off track.

Look at all kids with body issues. why? Because society judges us by how we look, dress and other appalling standards.

And the list just goes on and on.

We get what we settle for so let's cut the Bullshit with our band aid solutions and ideas.

 

[joop]

There are a lot of genuine homeless people and also a lot of people homeless cos they are down and out junkies who cant or dont want to get clean.
There was a news report on the ABC a while ago that quite a few homeless people get offered accommodation in country towns but knock it back because getting drugs and begging for money is pretty tough in a small country town so they only want inner city accommodation.
This ISNT the majority of course.
But there are indeed some homeless who knock back housing.

There is a significant difference of being homeless to being a junkie who turns down accommodation.
Anyway, as the original point was that this is the Police and governments fault, I think that that is just a simpleton way of viewing this. We live in an amazing city. Sure shit happens from time to time, but the way our government and police handle things is second to none. Where is the praise for the terrorist attacks they have prevented? People are happy to slander them off and it pisses me right off.
Some of the comments in here are beyond pathetic, people really don't know how good we have it. Take a trip to Belize City, San Salvador or Tegucigalpa and youll get some perspective. Not just how great our city is, but how amazing our police are too.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

There is a significant difference of being homeless to being a junkie who turns down accommodation.
Anyway, as the original point was that this is the Police and governments fault, I think that that is just a simpleton way of viewing this. We live in an amazing city. Sure shit happens from time to time, but the way our government and police handle things is second to none. Where is the praise for the terrorist attacks they have prevented? People are happy to slander them off and it pisses me right off.
Some of the comments in here are beyond pathetic, people really don't know how good we have it. Take a trip to Belize City, San Salvador or Tegucigalpa and youll get some perspective. Not just how great our city is, but how amazing our police are too.

Yes i agree that our police are doing a good job .
My point about junkie homeless and genuine homeless is that i think most of the people shown on the tv and in papers tbe last few days living in that one big area together are mainly homeless drug addicts with just a few genuine homeless in there.
Just my opinion though. Im not living there so i dont know the 100% truth.

 

[MacMum]

Yes i agree that our police are doing a good job .
My point about junkie homeless and genuine homeless is that i think most of the people shown on the tv and in papers tbe last few days living in that one big area together are mainly homeless drug addicts with just a few genuine homeless in there.
Just my opinion though. Im not living there so i dont know the 100% truth.

Just to add to your posts CMS, have seen in recent days where these "homeless" people have been offered proper accommodation but have knocked them back. The genuine homeless who need help will have taken up the offers. Majority haven't it seems.

....and something else, how do they collect the dole without an address? I know it goes into a bank account, but don't they have to provide an address first?

These are the things that should be checked up on and clamped down on if found to be the case..

Police can only do what their powers allow....the judicial system is what needs a massive overhaul. Heard a policeman say years ago, "we catch them, the judges let them go"

The laws on so many things have to be changed and tightened up. Melbourne is not the place to be right now.

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

There is a significant difference of being homeless to being a junkie who turns down accommodation.
Anyway, as the original point was that this is the Police and governments fault, I think that that is just a simpleton way of viewing this. We live in an amazing city. Sure shit happens from time to time, but the way our government and police handle things is second to none. Where is the praise for the terrorist attacks they have prevented? People are happy to slander them off and it pisses me right off.
Some of the comments in here are beyond pathetic, people really don't know how good we have it. Take a trip to Belize City, San Salvador or Tegucigalpa and youll get some perspective. Not just how great our city is, but how amazing our police are too.

You are still missing the point - the police are amazing and are doing the best job they can even with their hands tied behind their back. Melbourne is a great place to live and I've lived in 3 other countries in Asia and UK/Europe as well as travelled to 40 other countries so I've seen quite a bit of the world. However not all is well here - I particularly noticed the change when I came back from overseas in 2010. I dont like the nanny state and the over political correctness and especially the fact that our bail/remand laws are too lax amongst other things. Oh no we can't do this as 6 people over there might be offended. Well I'm offended that you're offended!!!

If it isnt the Govt's fault whose is it? You are probably one of those socialist leftie greenie types - well good luck to you then because all is not well. How about the lack of infrastructure for the last 30 years which has resulted in traffic jams that have added at least 15 minutes to peoples' journeys in the last 15 years? How about Daniel Andrews paying $1billion to get out of a project that eventually we will have to build anyway to cope with the increase in population? Just to be clear I'm pointing the finger at both sides over the last 25 years. The last decent premier we've had is Kennett and the last decent prime minister we've had was Hawke/Keating.

Oh but the statistics say everything is trending down so it must be the case....

 

[Periphery]

If it isnt the Govt's fault whose is it? You are probably one of those socialist leftie greenie types - well good luck to you then because all is not well. How about the lack of infrastructure for the last 30 years which has resulted in traffic jams that have added at least 15 minutes to peoples' journeys in the last 15 years? How about Daniel Andrews paying $1billion to get out of a project that eventually we will have to build anyway to cope with the increase in population?

You do realise that most 'socialist leftie greenie types' promote increased infrastructure spending and that the lack of spending was caused by neoliberal politics, right?

As for the East West link: It was a horribly flawed public/private partnership (all PPP's are flawed imo) hidden behind secretive deals signed right before an election. The fee structure that was going to be used would have, over time, ended up costing the Vic Government much more than if they'd just built the project themselves. And that's before you take into account the tolls that users would have paid.

It would have taken money away form other - more important - projects while ripping off the public. That $1b spent to get out of the deal saved an estimated $4b in fees.

Also, building roads doesn't fix road congestion. It just further entrenches a car dominant transport hierarchy at the expense of all other forms of transit - all of which are more efficient, healthy, and environmentally sustainable.

 

[Joffaboy]

Just lock them all up, then there will be no crime.

No, just have right wing murder squads roaming the streets summarily executing the undesirables.

But who gets to choose who the undesirables are? Murdoch this week, getting rid of the yukky homeless and leftie scum, mabye later on a Stalin getting rid of the middle class.

Lets dispense with inconvenient judges and the rule of law because people what others killed without trial or put away ( concentration camps? Gulags?).

If people dont like our laws and way of life please go to a despotic dictatorship and see how you enjoy the eady life you have here.

 

[Joffaboy]

You do realise that most 'socialist leftie greenie types' promote increased infrastructure spending and that the lack of spending was caused by neoliberal politics, right?

As for the East West link: It was a horribly flawed public/private partnership (all PPP's are flawed imo) hidden behind secretive deals signed right before an election. The fee structure that was going to be used would have, over time, ended up costing the Vic Government much more than if they'd just built the project themselves. And that's before you take into account the tolls that users would have paid.

It would have taken money away form other - more important - projects while ripping off the public. That $1b spent to get out of the deal saved an estimated $4b in fees.

Also, building roads doesn't fix road congestion. It just further entrenches a car dominant transport hierarchy at the expense of all other forms of transit - all of which are more efficient, healthy, and environmentally sustainable.

All and add to rhe fact that those two criminals Obrien and Guy signed a deal with the construction company that cost us, you and me and everyone else $700 million.

The Liberal party should be made to repay that 700 mill. Signed two weeks before an election FFS.

Liberals ripp everyone off for themselves and their masters. Got kicked out because they did nothing but skim money off for themselves.
At least the lefties as you call them do things for the state in infrastructure.

The alt right christian bigots of the Tories do SFA.

And unless you are a lawyer you know little of due process.
Every heard of seperation of powers BTW? A basic tenet of our way of life.

Oh BTW I was in the exact spot this crime happened 30 minutes prior. My daughter was a street across, happened directly outside a friends workplace 10 minutes after she walked in after lunch and my daughters boyfriend's brother saw it as he works at Cotton On.

So I am not playing a parlour game here, I know that circumstance could have meant tragedy for my life in any of those four incidence.
I just wont be cowed into barbarism or authoritarian destruction of the basis of our system of govt or our lifestyle

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You are still missing the point - the police are amazing and are doing the best job they can even with their hands tied behind their back. Melbourne is a great place to live and I've lived in 3 other countries in Asia and UK/Europe as well as travelled to 40 other countries so I've seen quite a bit of the world. However not all is well here - I particularly noticed the change when I came back from overseas in 2010. I dont like the nanny state and the over political correctness and especially the fact that our bail/remand laws are too lax amongst other things. Oh no we can't do this as 6 people over there might be offended. Well I'm offended that you're offended!!!

If it isnt the Govt's fault whose is it? You are probably one of those socialist leftie greenie types - well good luck to you then because all is not well. How about the lack of infrastructure for the last 30 years which has resulted in traffic jams that have added at least 15 minutes to peoples' journeys in the last 15 years? How about Daniel Andrews paying $1billion to get out of a project that eventually we will have to build anyway to cope with the increase in population? Just to be clear I'm pointing the finger at both sides over the last 25 years. The last decent premier we've had is Kennett and the last decent prime minister we've had was Hawke/Keating.

Oh but the statistics say everything is trending down so it must be the case....

No there was deceptive data posted earlier. People on this thread were essentially saying that some of us only "perceived" the crime.

Statistics from the victorian government website say that crime is trending up. A particular increase in the last year.
Every year its gone up per capita since 2011.
Victim reports have shot up in the last year. ( maybe people are just complaining more )

https://www.crimestatistics.vic.gov.au/crime-statistics/latest-crime-data/recorded-offences-1
https://www.crimestatistics.vic.gov.au/crime-statistics/latest-crime-data/victim-reports-1

Its been reported in the media.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/e...as-spiralling-crime-rate-20160615-gpk4p2.html

Police don't have the full report published more recently than 2014.
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?a=internetBridgingPage&Media_ID=72176

Crime is going up in victoria FACT.
I don't know how anyone can claim that this information is not subjective.
Its not perceived, or confirmation bias ,and i really fail to understand the agenda of those who say its not real.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

All and add to rhe fact that those two criminals Obrien and Guy signed a deal with the construction company that cost us, you and me and everyone else $700 million.

The Liberal party should be made to repay that 700 mill. Signed two weeks before an election FFS.

Liberals ripp everyone off for themselves and their masters. Got kicked out because they did nothing but skim money off for themselves.
At least the lefties as you call them do things for the state in infrastructure.

The alt right christian bigots of the Tories do SFA.

And unless you are a lawyer you know little of due process.
Every heard of seperation of powers BTW? A basic tenet of our way of life.

Oh BTW I was in the exact spot this crime happened 30 minutes prior. My daughter was a street across, happened directly outside a friends workplace 10 minutes after she walked in after lunch and my daughters boyfriend's brother saw it as he works at Cotton On.

So I am not playing a parlour game here, I know that circumstance could have meant tragedy for my life in any of those four incidence.
I just wont be cowed into barbarism or authoritarian destruction of the basis of our system of govt or our lifestyle

Play politics now?
Pretty sure they agreed to build the tunnel prior to when they were elected.
Also sure no-one was actually in fear of their well being during that debacle.
It was bullshit cancelling something that had already been contracted, and all governments could do it if they wanted to play stupid kids games and throw money away.
If the libs get in next election and cancel the railway stuff they are now building, would you call the current lot criminals.
Stupid expensive games is what it is.

 

[StCicatriz]

we are about to go into a state election over here in WA and have a similar scenario to your east west link. basically the liberals want to build Roe 8 and Roe 9 which is an extension on the Roe highway which ends at the south bound freeway. the purpose of the road is to connect it to the port in fremantle, so that trucks and heavy haulage are moved off suburban streets and leach/canning highway thereby reducing the congestion. roe 8 and roe 9 will cost a tick under 2 billion and make use of a tunnel

its caused a lot of angst in the community, partly due to it going straight through protected wetlands that has significant aboriginal heritage and old artifacts. there's also alot of asbestos in there from when council dumped it there a long time back, so the works are kicking up dust at near by houses

the other big problem with it, which many people are against, is that it doesnt achieve what its being put in to do. roe 8 and roe 9 actually end the otherside of the river from the port. so the congestion issue is still there and trucks will still have to drive on suburban roads. the other problem is it will be our first toll road.

but the biggest problem and this is the kicker. the government is looking to sell the port to reduce state debt. according to reports the port will not sell for anymore than 5 billion. a port thats about to be at capacity in 2020 with no room for expansion. so the state government has stated they need to build a new port in kwinana (30-40 mins south) anyway

so the 2 billion state and federal price tag gets us a road that doesnt even get to its intended destination, does not reduce congestion, impacts protected wetlands with historical significance and endangers the local residents with asbestos dust to service a port that wont be owned by state and needs to be replaced anyway

after all this the libs are still going ahead with it even though the 3 surrounding councils do no want it. labor, the greens and one nation have said they will scrap it and the port authority has said they need to build a new port anyway. the councils, labor, greens and industry all put together an alternative, which involves capping the freo port at its current capacity then using the existing rail link between that and kwinana to move freight down to a new port in kwinana. the existing roads would then be upgraded to connect the new port in kwinana to the freeway. everyone is pretty much in favor of the alternative when its explained to them

everyone except the libs. its a massive waste of money all to appease liberal lobyists

 

[SaintsSeptember]

we are about to go into a state election over here in WA and have a similar scenario to your east west link. basically the liberals what to build Roe 8 and Roe 9 which is an extension on the Roe 8 highway which ends at the south bound freeway. the purpose of the road is to connect it to the port in fremantle, so that trucks and heavy haulage are moved off suburban streets and leach/canning highway thereby reducing the congestion. roe 8 and roe 9 will cost a tick under 2 billion and make use of a tunnel

its caused a lot of angst in the community, partly due to it going straight through protected wetlands that has significant aboriginal heritage and old artifacts. there's also alot of asbestos in there from when council dumped it there a long time back, so the works are kicking up dust at near by houses

the other big problem with it, which many people are against, is that it doesnt achieve what its being put in to do. roe 8 and roe 9 actually end the otherside of the river from the port. so the congestion issue is still there and trucks will still have to drive on suburban roads. the other problem is it will be our first toll road.

but the biggest problem and this is the kicker. the government is looking to sell the port to reduce state debt. according to reports the port will not sell for anymore than 5 billion. a port thats about to be at capacity in 2020 with no room for expansion. so the state government has stated they need to build a new port in kwinana (30-40 mins south) anyway

so the 2 billion state and federal price tag gets us a road that doesnt even get to its intended destination, does not reduce congestion, impacts protected wetlands with historical significance and endangers the local residents with asbestos dust to service a port that wont be owned by state and needs to be replaced anyway

after all this the libs are still going ahead with it even though the 3 surrounding councils do no want it. labor, the greens and one nation have said they will scrap it and the port authority has said they need to build a new port anyway. the councils, labor, greens and industry all put together an alternative, which involves capping the freo port at its current capacity then using the existing rail link between that and kwinana to move freight down to a new port in kwinana. the existing roads would then be upgraded to connect the new port in kwinana to the freeway. everyone is pretty much in favor of the alternative when its explained to them

everyone except the libs. its a massive waste of money all to appease liberal lobyists

The thing is, if a government does something, you need to let them do it.
We will go no-where fast if we spend a heap of money undoing everything each election.
Construction planning and building takes more time than a government term.

 

[Periphery]

The thing is, if a government does something, you need to let them do it.
We will go no-where fast if we spend a heap of money undoing everything each election.
Construction planning and building takes more time than a government term.

That is correct, but it doesn't mean that cancelling clearly bad deals is the wrong choice.

 

[StCicatriz]

The thing is, if a government does something, you need to let them do it.
We will go no-where fast if we spend a heap of money undoing everything each election.
Construction planning and building takes more time than a government term.

of course, but these types of big projects need to be voted on, they should have made it an election issue. instead of plowing ahead with it

why not go for the alternative? sadly self interest comes head of whats good for the state

 

[RoundCubic]

The difference between Roe 8 and the East West Link is EastWest needs to be built at some point but was maybe not the highest priority but Abbott was offering some big sweeteners on road projects at the time.

The libs played politics in signing contracts on the eve of the election and i think the electorate saw it and punished them for it but it was a huge waste of money and in 10 years it will cost twice as much to build the link

 

[Nutsngum]

Can someone explain how building a tunnel that bypasses the city is meant to relieve congestion of traffic travelling into the city?

 

[Persevering Saint]

Can someone explain how building a tunnel that bypasses the city is meant to relieve congestion of traffic travelling into the city?

Melbourne's roads are meant to make sense?

I've seen bowls of spaghetti that made more sense.