Discussion Random Discussion

[st_trav_ofWA]

Used to be centre left, now more centre right.

Voted left my whole life until the last election, although it makes no difference.

if you dont mind asking why the change ??
ive been pretty much a left leaning my whole life and i find the right historically go's against everything i put value in ... i am not anti unionist but i do not trust them as ive personally been burnt by them ... now as i get older and im thinking about the future i want for my potential children to grow up in the right side of politics is further and further away from me and i find myself a strong greens supporter (something i would have never expected 10 years ago)

 

[gringo2011]

O

Yeah I think most of us do the storm the winter palace, eat the rich routine when young.

Then you have a look at the lies and corruption that exists and the absolute campaigners that have seized power in other countries in other times only to drain the wealth of nations for themselves.

I think I reached a point where when I wasn't just saying it for a laugh I wanted to know the how, why, when and where of things.

I think that leads to a more moderate approach because being outraged isn't enough you need workable solutions.

What is really weird now is that you can't really have good ongoing discussion. People just shout each other down or resort to the tried and true, racist, sexist and a dozens more to shut it down.

Then a day or two later if that their on to another topic, it's like one endless vox pop.

Yeah the internet has been a bad thing for people because it really is an echo chamber. People only see confirmation of their view written in emotive language and get even more intense in their views. Once people conversed and realised everyone was similar and saw commonality. We've lost that these days.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

So it's a race to the bottom: offer the lowest possible tax rates, in order to prevent globalisation taking full effect and companies leaving for China and India? Make workers compete with the terms of conditions of those countries too?

Agree on this point, MUF. Very interesting juncture in time. Lots of disruption and there’s much more to come.

You’d enjoy this discussion between Steve Jurvetson and Tim Ferris I think https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2&i=1000412657569

Jurvetson says the world is headed to a place where “stuff” costs a dollar per pound. ie everything from potatoes to pharma can be manufactured so cheaply it’s $1 per lb.
Therefore it’s the intellectual property that’s the rare commodity.

Can’t recommend the listen enough

 

[MUFKilda]

It's kind of like a prison though. Hoping to fight the system just makes you frustrated, you almost just need to accept your fate and ride it because the campaigners have won and they aren't going to give it up easily. You see how unregulated I am about footy, imagine if I took politics too seriously. I'd be locked up.

Right and left are not working against each other anymore. Democracy isn't really offing genuine choice and money rules the world.

Yet it's only by people fighting that we have universal suffrage, trade unions, free schooling etc. Giving up is exactly what the right want; it's only by making people vote against their interests, via the help of a right wing owned press, that they maintain power. Recognition of these facts is our only hope of justice.

 

[Joffaboy]

I’ve been very lucky in my career.
For a time my responsibilities included selling value added product in to Asia.
Consequently I’ve seen these countries from a totally different perspective than that we would regard as normal.
Spent way too much time drinking top label cognacs in Karaoke bars.
(This proving particularly useful when I first moved to LA. My competition attempted to drink me under the table in Vegas, and so get industry insider knowledge. Two problems with that: I had only been with the new employer a month and knew literally nothing, and I was match fit from drinking all this cognac. Last time I saw Dave, he was fast asleep at a table in the Flamingo Hilton.)
Anyways, seen it, been there, ticked it off.
Which is why I fly over Asia to get to Europe.
And why I totally understand why people are attracted by different countries and cultures.
I have zero urge to return to Asia.
So I understand your zero urge to hit the States.

Only difference is you have actually been to parts of Asia so at least you have a reference point.


On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gringo2011]

There's a lot of bullshit ingrained in both the left and the right.

I can't get my head around the left attitude.
All the bosses are rich ,why give tax cuts to businesses, give it to the individuals who need them.

Its so Charles Dickens.

Simply: It doesn't matter how rich Joe Bloggs is , if he can make 20% more money by moving his operation, including all the jobs to China , he will. Then he won't pay any tax to Australia.

Its not giving money to a rich dude, its encouraging business. If you want to go total socialist you need to follow Lenin's example and close the borders and start repressing. In between socialist systems won't work. Those affected too adversely will simply take their bat and ball and go and find other kids to play with.

That's a race to the bottom attitude though and why there were tariffs and protections once. Globalisation is great for the wealthy but will inevitably lead to a dropping of living standards for someone. Until the world sets up as a purely level playing field it will always be attractive to go where the labour is cheap. Eventually the jobs will start to dissipate more and more and you'll have to find ways to hand money out or the capitalist system falls over.

The living standards of poor Chinese people and wealthy internationalists are the biggest winners in globalisation and neoliberalism.

I'm in business and seriously the tax we pay is not going to make us leave. The big companies that earn money here and want tax breaks are banks and miners who want to do business here because there is business to do here. The workers should pay tax and business should pay tax and then we could provide all the essential services.

Most corporations have very good tax minimisation schemes and don't pay as it is.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

if you dont mind asking why the change ??
ive been pretty much a left leaning my whole life and i find the right historically go's against everything i put value in ... i am not anti unionist but i do not trust them as ive personally been burnt by them ... now as i get older and im thinking about the future i want for my potential children to grow up in the right side of politics is further and further away from me and i find myself a strong greens supporter (something i would have never expected 10 years ago)

Truth be told I’m probably dead centre, it’s the growing aggression and downright ignorance from the loudest on the left which has lead me to distance myself.

Both sides of politics has become so homogenised these days anyway it scaresly matters.

I admire people like Musk and Branson who hold strong beliefs from both left and right, without feeling the need to pick a side and take it to the extreme

 

[Moral Decay]

It's kind of like a prison though. Hoping to fight the system just makes you frustrated, you almost just need to accept your fate and ride it because the campaigners have won and they aren't going to give it up easily. You see how unregulated I am about footy, imagine if I took politics too seriously. I'd be locked up.

Right and left are not working against each other anymore. Democracy isn't really offing genuine choice and money rules the world.

I tend to think that any system is only as good as the people in it, think Queensland 70's and 80's

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Nah, was just wondering how many anti-hierarchy/anarchist societies you could think of off the top of your head.
It's a bit like saying "name me a Greens prime minister who led the country responsibly and managed a healthy economy".
Well, I can't name one, but if you can give me a list of Greens prime ministers, I'll give you a review of how or how badly they went.

We can make an assumption that they'll run the country poorly, but once they got qualified people into the appropriate positions we don't know really what the end result would be. Same goes for an anti-hierarchy/anarchist society. How would things work out? How would things have turned out with Bernie Sanders as president? Who knows, but would have liked to have found out. Even with Trump, there was a certain curiosity about how much damage the guy could actually do, unfortunately that's the one we're finding out about.

Not necessarily a race to the bottom.
There are plenty of other reasons NOT to relocate to China. Like everything its a balancing act.
No i don't want to tax big companies to the hilt. On the other hand i don't like us signing free trade agreements that benefit the other party more than Australia.

 

[Moral Decay]

If you were to describe yourself as generally left wing, centrist or right wing, where would you place yourself?

I'm certainly on the left.

What would you say?

Currently a lefty but at core I believe in responsibility, outcomes of decisions in my life and the same in the lives of others.
Dangerous thoughts.

I like dole bludgers, with structural unemployment some one has to be on the dole, may as well be some one that wants to be there, and it means I don't have to compete with them for a job.

I can't see the difference between share holders and people on social security, they all feel entitled to be supported by society. Though share holders do seem to get more easily offended.

All of society is a human construct, society's rules only exist because they are an answer to a question, maybe not the right answer or even a good answer and as such can be changed and if they have unjust outcomes should be changed.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Going back through the years a typical Australian family had one bread winner and the other looking after the house and the family.
Often as the family got older, the stay at home ( typically the wife i'd say ) would get a part time job to supplement the family income.

Then there were a few that discovered that if both parents could work in "good" jobs , and somehow offload the kids, they were on easy street.
More and more people started to do this.

Suddenly with the family income doubling, the prices of houses went up and up and up, as all of us greedy individuals tried to outdo the Joneses.

Full forward to Today.
The typical dual income family needs two jobs to support them in purchasing property. The property is not better than what their father could afford with his single income. In fact they are under financial stress, the government is going to subsidise their childcare. Stay at home "mums" ( or dads ) //such as retrenched people // will need to justify their value to society to get the subsidy. Because looking after a house and kids is not of any value. ( Sorry mum, you wasted your time all those years ya bludger ).

If both parents have jobs , the odds of one of them losing their job for some reason would have to be.....DOUBLE . Lose the job , lose the house.

All self inflicted by the individual greed of our society.

I see people on real estate shows, "I MUST HAVE A HOUSE NEAR PRAHRAN " like a little kid saying "i must have a Ferrari " .

I'm sorry the childcare rebate is wrong. It should have been costed into the personal budget considerations. Others who don't have partners at all to share housing costs, or don't have children, should not subsidise those who couldn't do the math.

I'm sorry miss Smith, you are barren and can't have children, but don't be upset, your tax will go to those who can.

EDIT: Moral decay, most of the family's in the old days only had ONE parent competing for that job.
Now they are stuffed if they don't both have one.

 

[gringo2011]

Tim Winton, Proulx, Kipling, frank w abagnale, Gore Vidal, terry brooks, James kelnam, bernard evslin, armistead maupin, David eddings, Bruce chatwin, Defoe, homer, hardy, Tolstoy, Hemingway, dickens, Huxley, Waugh, Thoreau, James, Chaucer, richard hough, Hardy, Bronte, Chekhov, f Scott Fitzgerald, d h Lawrence, john Wyndham, earnest Shackleton, George Eliot, Kerouac, Capote, Robert drew, Euripides, Anthony Burgess, henry James, Forster, Thomas de Quincey, Bacon, Balzac, Conrad, Tennessee Williams, Bronte, Steinbeck and the penguin book of new American voices.

What do you make of that lot?. Many authors have multiple books.

Well I just recorded the authors names on the top shelf of the bookcases in my bedroom.

The second shelf would have you more confused, more of the same but at a quick glance plenty of tom Sharpe and Wodehouse added in.

Gringo you made me laugh, that's my place books coming out of cupboard's stacked in boxes in the shed. My wife hates it and yes I had a good clean out after the flood a few years back.

I go through stages and my taste in books and reading material waxes and wains but from a young age i loved science fiction and fantasy, I still do.

My next door neighbour is an emeritus professor who has written several books on science fiction always good for an interesting chat.

Absolutely love Steinbeck, cannery row is a personal favorite.

I hate e book readers, iPads etc I have them but me give me a book every time.

You and I have similar taste Yawkey

 

[gringo2011]

Going back through the years a typical Australian family had one bread winner and the other looking after the house and the family.
Often as the family got older, the stay at home ( typically the wife i'd say ) would get a part time job to supplement the family income.

Then there were a few that discovered that if both parents could work in "good" jobs , and somehow offload the kids, they were on easy street.
More and more people started to do this.

Suddenly with the family income doubling, the prices of houses went up and up and up, as all of us greedy individuals tried to outdo the Joneses.

Full forward to Today.
The typical dual income family needs two jobs to support them in purchasing property. The property is not better than what their father could afford with his single income. In fact they are under financial stress, the government is going to subsidise their childcare. Stay at home "mums" ( or dads ) //such as retrenched people // will need to justify their value to society to get the subsidy. Because looking after a house and kids is not of any value. ( Sorry mum, you wasted your time all those years ya bludger ).

If both parents have jobs , the odds of one of them losing their job for some reason would have to be.....DOUBLE . Lose the job , lose the house.

All self inflicted by the individual greed of our society.

I see people on real estate shows, "I MUST HAVE A HOUSE NEAR PRAHRAN " like a little kid saying "i must have a Ferrari " .

I'm sorry the childcare rebate is wrong. It should have been costed into the personal budget considerations. Others who don't have partners at all to share housing costs, or don't have children, should not subsidise those who couldn't do the math.

I'm sorry miss Smith, you are barren and can't have children, but don't be upset, your tax will go to those who can.

EDIT: Moral decay, most of the family's in the old days only had ONE parent competing for that job.
Now they are stuffed if they don't both have one.

I think you will find the housing demand is driven by bringing in mass immigration. Immigrants aren't to be confused with refugees. Refugees are the people escaping terrible outcomes and we demonise them and we only bring in around 25000 to 30000 of them. We bring in around 200,000 other immigrants mostly through "skilled migration" but most are scams to exploit loop holes and get fast tracked. The governments love this type of immigration because they generally bring in money from overseas and drive perpetual growth, especially in property.

Overseas investments laws are also very relaxed here and foreign money especially Chinese money propped the investment market until the rule were tightened by China and the money has dried up. Most immigrants move to the capitals especially Melbourne and Sydney and drive property prices there. The market is looking a bit shaky right now because of foreign investment slowing.

Generally people want to live near the city for convenience all over the world and most know the better investments are those close to the CBD.

 

[cartel]

I identify as a lefty, not sure whether I actually am or not.

I'm a Labor voter, used to be quite be vehement in my support for them but have got disillusioned with politics in last few years.

On the left, I don't think there is a viable alternative to forming government. I think greens policies simply couldn't work out in practice.

Not that Labor is a left wing party now anyway.

I do get frustrated but largely agree with him what saints September was saying above. I'm looking to buy what will be a family home soon, albeit not in Melbourne, and feel in equal terms that the current set up is not fair for younger people but there is a significant sense of entitlement in some members of my generation as well.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think you will find the housing demand is driven by bringing in mass immigration. Immigrants aren't to be confused with refugees. Refugees are the people escaping terrible outcomes and we demonise them and we only bring in around 25000 to 30000 of them. We bring in around 200,000 other immigrants mostly through "skilled migration" but most are scams to exploit loop holes and get fast tracked. The governments love this type of immigration because they generally bring in money from overseas and drive perpetual growth, especially in property.

Overseas investments laws are also very relaxed here and foreign money especially Chinese money propped the investment market until the rule were tightened by China and the money has dried up. Most immigrants move to the capitals especially Melbourne and Sydney and drive property prices there. The market is looking a bit shaky right now because of foreign investment slowing.

Generally people want to live near the city for convenience all over the world and most know the better investments are those close to the CBD.

Of course that's true, but there's a reason everyone on the planet can't own property in down town Manhattan, and I WANT IT NOW !!! doesn't help.
Area of a circle increases at the square or the radius. Means the if you go twice as far from the cbd , there's 4 times as much land available.

I agree foreign investment hasn't helped, but i'm pretty sure it also shot up when John Howard delivered the massive tax cuts that came with the GST.

We are very good at making ourselves broke to show off our wealth.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Of course that's true, but there's a reason everyone on the planet can't own property in down town Manhattan, and I WANT IT NOW !!! doesn't help.
Area of a circle increases at the square or the radius. Means the if you go twice as far from the cbd , there's 4 times as much land available.

I agree foreign investment hasn't helped, but i'm pretty sure it also shot up when John Howard delivered the massive tax cuts that came with the GST.

We are very good at making ourselves broke to show off our wealth.

Johnny Howard, what a campaigner. Squandered the biggest boom in our history

 

[Moral Decay]

Going back through the years a typical Australian family had one bread winner and the other looking after the house and the family.
Often as the family got older, the stay at home ( typically the wife i'd say ) would get a part time job to supplement the family income.

Then there were a few that discovered that if both parents could work in "good" jobs , and somehow offload the kids, they were on easy street.
More and more people started to do this.

Suddenly with the family income doubling, the prices of houses went up and up and up, as all of us greedy individuals tried to outdo the Joneses.

Full forward to Today.
The typical dual income family needs two jobs to support them in purchasing property. The property is not better than what their father could afford with his single income. In fact they are under financial stress, the government is going to subsidise their childcare. Stay at home "mums" ( or dads ) //such as retrenched people // will need to justify their value to society to get the subsidy. Because looking after a house and kids is not of any value. ( Sorry mum, you wasted your time all those years ya bludger ).

If both parents have jobs , the odds of one of them losing their job for some reason would have to be.....DOUBLE . Lose the job , lose the house.

All self inflicted by the individual greed of our society.

I see people on real estate shows, "I MUST HAVE A HOUSE NEAR PRAHRAN " like a little kid saying "i must have a Ferrari " .

I'm sorry the childcare rebate is wrong. It should have been costed into the personal budget considerations. Others who don't have partners at all to share housing costs, or don't have children, should not subsidise those who couldn't do the math.

I'm sorry miss Smith, you are barren and can't have children, but don't be upset, your tax will go to those who can.

EDIT: Moral decay, most of the family's in the old days only had ONE parent competing for that job.
Now they are stuffed if they don't both have one.

maybe contemplate that we are breaching peoples human rights by denying then work.

Article 23.1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:[1]

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

— Universal Declaration of Human Rights, United Nations General Assembly

and all a human construct, contemplate the Harvester Judgement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvester_case.

maybe it would have been better interpreted to allow two people to work part time and earn enough money to raise a family and build a house

Society is in a constant state of flux where laws can only be just in there own time. While it helps to understand how wee got to where we are, for me the issue is to determine how we want society to function and then give a frame work to creating change that doesn't involve destruction.

How would you want society to look?

 

[StFly]

1st attempt: Labor
2nd attempt: Socialist Revolutionary Party
3rd attempt: Greens
4th attempt: Give me a friggen dinosaur park, PUP.

Will never in my life trend towards Liberal / Nationals, literally watched as the town went from 6k to 25ish k on 2 lanes of traffic with overland rail on one of them whilst they funneled cash into Melbourne to line their coffers then wonder why we kicked them out and told them to GAGF with about a 9% swing that was maintained for 20 odd years despite redivisions.

If I had to identify, Lenin mixed with Ghengis Khan, or leaning left with understanding that right isn't all bad but mostly and a bitch will be cut if doth bitch does deserve to be cut.

Then her house will burn.
Then her livlihood will burn.
Then we shall hold a festivity in honour of cutting said bitch.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

1st attempt: Labor
2nd attempt: Socialist Revolutionary Party
3rd attempt: Greens
4th attempt: Give me a friggen dinosaur park, PUP.

Will never in my life trend towards Liberal / Nationals, literally watched as the town went from 6k to 25ish k on 2 lanes of traffic with overland rail on one of them whilst they funneled cash into Melbourne to line their coffers then wonder why we kicked them out and told them to GAGF with about a 9% swing that was maintained for 20 odd years despite redivisions.

If I had to identify, Lenin mixed with Ghengis Khan, or leaning left with understanding that right isn't all bad but mostly and a bitch will be cut if doth bitch does deserve to be cut.

Then her house will burn.
Then her livlihood will burn.
Then we shall hold a festivity in honour of cutting said bitch.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

maybe contemplate that we are breaching peoples human rights by denying then work.

Article 23.1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:[1]

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

— Universal Declaration of Human Rights, United Nations General Assembly

and all a human construct, contemplate the Harvester Judgement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvester_case.

maybe it would have been better interpreted to allow two people to work part time and earn enough money to raise a family and build a house

Society is in a constant state of flux where laws can only be just in there own time. While it helps to understand how wee got to where we are, for me the issue is to determine how we want society to function and then give a frame work to creating change that doesn't involve destruction.

How would you want society to look?

No-one denied anyone work. People made their choices.
My point is that society made its own moves and we aren't better off with 2 average incomes now, than we were with one back then.
Give everyone a pay rise and no-one is better off.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That's a race to the bottom attitude though and why there were tariffs and protections once. Globalisation is great for the wealthy but will inevitably lead to a dropping of living standards for someone. Until the world sets up as a purely level playing field it will always be attractive to go where the labour is cheap. Eventually the jobs will start to dissipate more and more and you'll have to find ways to hand money out or the capitalist system falls over.

The living standards of poor Chinese people and wealthy internationalists are the biggest winners in globalisation and neoliberalism.

I'm in business and seriously the tax we pay is not going to make us leave. The big companies that earn money here and want tax breaks are banks and miners who want to do business here because there is business to do here. The workers should pay tax and business should pay tax and then we could provide all the essential services.

Most corporations have very good tax minimisation schemes and don't pay as it is.

Its really easy for companies like Apple ( scum company ) to say, oh Apple Australia buy phones worth $900 from Ireland where they aren't made, and sell them for $901 dollars, oh no , we made a loss ( actual manufacturing cost probably less than $50 ), and avoid tax.

Its not so easy for the companies who add value , ie employ people. I work for an internationally owned company which manufactures in Australia, we employ an accountant to minimize tax but we make profit and pay tax.

The system currently favors pure importers.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Its really easy for companies like Apple ( scum company ) to say, oh Apple Australia buy phones worth $900 from Ireland where they aren't made, and sell them for $901 dollars, oh no , we made a loss ( actual manufacturing cost probably less than $50 ), and avoid tax.

Its not so easy for the companies who add value , ie employ people. I work for an internationally owned company which manufactures in Australia, we employ an accountant to minimize tax but we make profit and pay tax.

The system currently favors pure importers.

Agreed SS. Piss weak regulation has resulted in a situation like Apple. It’s not incumbent upon Apple to volunteer the “correct” amount of tax, it’s up to governments to force them to do so.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Agreed SS. Piss weak regulation has resulted in a situation like Apple. It’s not incumbent upon Apple to volunteer the “correct” amount of tax, it’s up to governments to force them to do so.

What really bugs me is the wonderful image that Apple have amongst the "Green types". Hell they got busted for forcing redundancy on their customers.
They churn out stuff that we have to throw away.

1st attempt: Labor
2nd attempt: Socialist Revolutionary Party
3rd attempt: Greens
4th attempt: Give me a friggen dinosaur park, PUP.

Will never in my life trend towards Liberal / Nationals, literally watched as the town went from 6k to 25ish k on 2 lanes of traffic with overland rail on one of them whilst they funneled cash into Melbourne to line their coffers then wonder why we kicked them out and told them to GAGF with about a 9% swing that was maintained for 20 odd years despite redivisions.

If I had to identify, Lenin mixed with Ghengis Khan, or leaning left with understanding that right isn't all bad but mostly and a bitch will be cut if doth bitch does deserve to be cut.

Then her house will burn.
Then her livlihood will burn.
Then we shall hold a festivity in honour of cutting said bitch.

I don't think i agree with you McFly , but i always love the way you express your opinion.

(( our freaking labor party keeps building freeways with traffic lights, cheap ones that use clockwork timers i think - dandenong road had synchonised lights in the 1970's but they stuck a stupid clockwork thing at Mc Donalds at the end of it all and wonder why the gridlock. ))

 

[Dard Ball Get]

What really bugs me is the wonderful image that Apple have amongst the "Green types". Hell they got busted for forcing redundancy on their customers.
They churn out stuff that we have to throw away.

Agree totally. The offset to Steve’s brilliance was his cold hard edge and “more more more” arrogance. Their development is lacklustre since his death, too, which is the be expected.

All that being said, I still use an iPhone, and a MacBook Pro

 

[MUFKilda]

No-one denied anyone work. People made their choices.
My point is that society made its own moves and we aren't better off with 2 average incomes now, than we were with one back then.
Give everyone a pay rise and no-one is better off.

That's forty years of neoliberalism in action. Worker productivity has increased massively, but wages are flat. Standards of living have been maintained via debt.