Ratten gone?

[Lord Nicholson]

It'd be a shame for him not to get that chance, and to have someone take over and be hailed a genius.

Happens all the time.

 

[Ron The Bear]

LOL. You do know at one stage this season we struggled to even get one tall player out on the park. I'd love to see how Richmond would've went with all the injuries to key players this year.

Hey, I'm not in favour of sacking Ratten. But the players are getting out of this very lightly IMO.

Judd spoke disparagingly in private about the player leadership at Carlton when he arrived. He dragged the club out of the mire, and as soon as he has a quiet season they slip back. The players need to ask themselves, as Geelong's did in early 2007, how badly they want to reach the top.

Maybe Fevola's ghost still haunts. Call an exorcist?

 

[CF]

It must be that time of year again when some Coach is sacrificed on the alter of expediency and made a scapegoat for the unprofessional acts of their players. Carlton have a good history of sacking guys so Ratten has every right to be worried.

One thing to any new coach - get rid of Judd as your Captain. Poor onfield performances also indicate poor leadership amongst the players. Judds Captaincy has been a complete failure and he seems like he is a poor leader of men.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

Hey, I'm not in favour of sacking Ratten. But the players are getting out of this very lightly IMO.

Indeed so. Would've liked Judd to have taken the heat in that presser with the same sharpness as Ratten.

 

[royals1922]

Spoken by someone who's team is only playing Finals due to getting the softest draw in AFL history and has had the least number of injuries of all 18 clubs..........clever champ.

Look at the last 10 weeks champ - how many "8" point games did they play and how many gimmes did they play.

And when the time came to beat the Blues, NM did, handsomely using a team they had compiled almost entirely from the draft.

Have a look at the draft of NM from 2006 to 2010 ( they got burnt by trades in 2005 badly). 4 trades, the highest draft pick of which was given away was no 36 and then they drafted in the ND from 2006 to 2010, Hansen, Goldstein, Thomas, Edwards, Tarrant, Greenwood, Thompson, Ziebell, Wright, Anthony, Cunnington, Bastinac, Black, McMillan, Atley, Harper, Delaney and rookie elevated McMahon, Adams, Campbell, grima and Garlett - blokes who were developed by NM and "shocked" Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon.

No monster trades for existing players nor tanking and using only one pick 3, one pick 15, one pick 9 one pick 5, and one pick 17, just old fashioned player development and players growing up together.

Of course Carlton will go for the "best" big player out there as they went for Judd, Warnock and McLean for all the good that it achieved them in recent years.

 

[JackFlash]

Mate, all I know is that I went hunting for a bloody beanie to buy it was that bloody cold! Yes I was at the game, fantastic little stadium, but it was bloody cold!!!

Amazing, the commentators were complaining of the humidity, i checked the weather on the net and it said 82% humidity. Oh well i guess they had to talk about something, Carlton were playing so badly they must've have been in shock and didn't feel the cold?

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Of course Carlton will go for the "best" big player out there as they went for Judd, Warnock and McLean for all the good that it achieved them in recent years.

Exactly right. Carlton keep going for the quick fix and wonder why they don't get anywhere. Even now, they think all they need is to sack Ratten and employ Malthouse, and they're quaranteed premiership success. It just doesn't work like that in the modern era.

 

[Duffman95]

Look at the last 10 weeks champ - how many "8" point games did they play and how many gimmes did they play.

And when the time came to beat the Blues, NM did, handsomely using a team they had compiled almost entirely from the draft.

Have a look at the draft of NM from 2006 to 2010 ( they got burnt by trades in 2005 badly). 4 trades, the highest draft pick of which was given away was no 36 and then they drafted in the ND from 2006 to 2010, Hansen, Goldstein, Thomas, Edwards, Tarrant, Greenwood, Thompson, Ziebell, Wright, Anthony, Cunnington, Bastinac, Black, McMillan, Atley, Harper, Delaney and rookie elevated McMahon, Adams, Campbell, grima and Garlett - blokes who were developed by NM and "shocked" Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon.

No monster trades for existing players nor tanking and using only one pick 3, one pick 15, one pick 9 one pick 5, and one pick 17, just old fashioned player development and players growing up together.

Of course Carlton will go for the "best" big player out there as they went for Judd, Warnock and McLean for all the good that it achieved them in recent years.

While I know you're thrilled about North currently sitting in 8th spot after a dream draw, but Carlton has played the last three finals series and was three points away from a preliminary final last year so it just can't be that bad. Even now, you are only two spots ahead on the ladder - amazing when you consider your post proclaiming how North have got it so right and Carlton so horribly wrong.

There's no doubt that bringing McLean and Warnock (especially on obscene money) were mistakes both at the time and in hindsight, but bringing in Judd brought the club back to life. Carlton's list in 07 was in far worse shape than anything North's was over the last 5 years, and we needed both his footballing talent and his leadership (although popular consensus from non-Carlton BigFooty folk is his leadership is a joke for some unknown reason). It was a clear void that needed to be filled, and it's no different to Geelong bringing in Ottens, or Collingwood bringing in Ball & Jolly.

Carlton has gone backwards this year - no doubt about it. The call on Ratten is a huge one, I'd hate to be making it as the playing list is a critical stage, and this decision will have a massive effect on what we get out of this 'generation' of players. I hope we get it right.

 

[mick06]

and was three points away from a preliminary final last year

Just lol. I love how this keeps coming up. Actually i dont it gets pretty tiring hearing this.

It was a semi final. It was last year. And Carlton lost.

As Vin Diesel would say - It doesn't matter if you lose by an inch or a mile; Losing's losing

 

[royals1922]

While I know you're thrilled about North currently sitting in 8th spot after a dream draw, but Carlton has played the last three finals series and was three points away from a preliminary final last year so it just can't be that bad. Even now, you are only two spots ahead on the ladder - amazing when you consider your post proclaiming how North have got it so right and Carlton so horribly wrong.

There's no doubt that bringing McLean and Warnock (especially on obscene money) were mistakes both at the time and in hindsight, but bringing in Judd brought the club back to life. Carlton's list in 07 was in far worse shape than anything North's was over the last 5 years, and we needed both his footballing talent and his leadership (although popular consensus from non-Carlton BigFooty folk is his leadership is a joke for some unknown reason). It was a clear void that needed to be filled, and it's no different to Geelong bringing in Ottens, or Collingwood bringing in Ball & Jolly.

Carlton has gone backwards this year - no doubt about it. The call on Ratten is a huge one, I'd hate to be making it as the playing list is a critical stage, and this decision will have a massive effect on what we get out of this 'generation' of players. I hope we get it right.

So you're saying 2 out of 3 of your big name trades were duds - and what did you give up for them - pick 11 and pick 24 ( when Dayne Beams was available at 29, hanneberry at 30, for starters) and picks 56 and 68 (which given shane Savage was taken at pick 75 and cornelius at pick 57). So I guess thats a cross for Carlton.

As for NM, most of their team was born in 1987 or after, making a team coming into their prime. Look at Carlton, if you will, Judd, Waite, simpson, Scotland etc were born 84 or before.

That's all right you can trade away anotherdraft pick or two to top up your list.

 

[BrunoV]

People questioning the calibre of the draftees at the time of being drafted must also look at the developmental process that they went through and not just think they came into being as the players they are now.

Not to toot my clubs horn, but lets take Lenny Hayes as an example, he came into a club that was fading into bottom 4 finishes, but still had players like Rob Harvey, Nathan Burke Andrew Thompson etc to learn from, Riewoldt had Stewie Loewe to learn from (kicks like him too sadly).

The point is that draft talent has to be shaped correctly and Carlton in the mid 2000's had nobody to teach the players about how to go about it at AFL level besides Kouta who was already shot by then and couldn't lead by example, who's to say if Carlton drafted Cotchin instead of Kruezer that Cotchin wouldn't be a soft plodder and Kruezer wouldn't be the new Polly Farmer. Who's to say that Gibbs wouldn't have become an elite midfielder with a booming kick at Geelong and Joel Selwood might have gone the way of Adam. It doesn't start and end on draft day.

Agree (with the bold in particular).

Drafting and recruiting are chronically misunderstood. It is like some clubs have the cheat notes and can tell whether a potential draftee with be able to handle the physical and mental demand of playing.

Any smart club takes these uncontrollable and unpredictable variables out of play as much as possible by investing heavily in high quality strength and conditioning programs and in player development more generally.

 

[royals1922]

While I know you're thrilled about North currently sitting in 8th spot after a dream draw, but Carlton has played the last three finals series and was three points away from a preliminary final last year so it just can't be that bad. .

So you are crowing about the fact that Carlton nearly got to a prelim. Fantastic work, fantastic, it means that carlton have won as much in the last few years as say, melbourne.

But let's assume you are correct, where's that big KPF - oh that's right he's playing for the Eagles and will likely be for some years yet.

But Carlton can say they were 3 points,that's right, 3 points away from a prelim.....

 

[Lord Nicholson]

So you are crowing about the fact that Carlton nearly got to a prelim. Fantastic work, fantastic, it means that carlton have won as much in the last few years as say, melbourne.

Or, y'know, any club that isn't Geelong, Collingwood, or Hawthorn.

The performance at Subiaco last year is not to be scoffed at. It was a bloody impressive game of football that could have gone either way. In fact, so clearly arduous was it that Geelong was always going to roll whoever won the week later. But that is what the Blues were capable of doing and on the back of it a lot of people had tipped them for the flag this year.

If North managed the same feat this year there would be just as much carry-on.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

Happens all the time.

Sanderson

 

[Duffman95]

So you're saying 2 out of 3 of your big name trades were duds - and what did you give up for them - pick 11 and pick 24 ( when Dayne Beams was available at 29, hanneberry at 30, for starters) and picks 56 and 68 (which given shane Savage was taken at pick 75 and cornelius at pick 57). So I guess thats a cross for Carlton.

As for NM, most of their team was born in 1987 or after, making a team coming into their prime. Look at Carlton, if you will, Judd, Waite, simpson, Scotland etc were born 84 or before.

That's all right you can trade away anotherdraft pick or two to top up your list.

I'm not sure what the point of your last line is, all I did was point that some trades work and others don't.

Yeah, I am saying that two of our trades were duds and it has been costly - no doubt. We had Kreuzer, Hampson and Jacobs at the time, so why we went after Warnock still mystifies me. And three years ago we had a KPP weakness and a strong midfield, so we brought in Brock for a first rounder when no-one else would have paid that much for him, and Kane Lucas was taken in the first round (who now can't get a game, much to the bewilderment of most Carlton supporters). Frustratingly, had we used picks 11 & 12 more wisely that year, we would start to see the fruits now after 50+ AFL games with a more consistent supply of talent with regards to the age-spread. Similarly, the players that came through together a few years ago as a tight, young group that you mention have fallen off a cliff recently (eg. Jordan Russell).

However I guess not everything we've done can be a mistake if we've made finals the last three years, but importantly now we are at a critical point in the clubs development (after this years failings) and what we do really determines our next three years and any chance of a flag with this current group. And for the record, I really hope we don't go after the quick fix this time with playing list. Back on the original topic of the coach - is Ratten the right man? I don't know from my desk at work. If he isn't he should go right now & we should start looking for the best now, if he is the man we need to properly support him so he can do his job and get the most of this list (which does have talent, but clearly isn't the finished product).

 

[royals1922]

Or, y'know, any club that isn't Geelong, Collingwood, or Hawthorn.

The performance at Subiaco last year is not to be scoffed at. It was a bloody impressive game of football that could have gone either way. In fact, so clearly arduous was it that Geelong was always going to roll whoever won the week later. But that is what the Blues were capable of doing and on the back of it a lot of people had tipped them for the flag this year.

If North managed the same feat this year there would be just as much carry-on.

Maybe,maybenot but people are forgetting the main issue. Should Ratten go - possibly- but Ratten is not the sole cause of this year. The problem is/was more systemic and getting a new coach, whoever it is,may not achieve what Carlton supporters expect.

Their player identification has been average, exacerbated by some average player development and the team has been given the bandaid treament with top up players for years.

Do Carlton supporters want ratten also trawl through every tape of the young under 18s or do you pay someone for that.

Whoever get's the position, if Ratten goes, will get a poisoned chalice.

 

[The 747]

Agre

Agree (with the bold in particular).

Drafting and recruiting are chronically misunderstood. It is like some clubs have the cheat notes and can tell whether a potential draftee with be able to handle the physical and mental demand of playing.

Any smart club takes these uncontrollable and unpredictable variables out of play as much as possible by investing heavily in high quality strength and conditioning programs and in player development more generally.

It amazes me that our recruiting department is able to generate a stream of AFL standard players (not saying they are the same calibre as the 1999-2001 crop though) from having picks 15-50 yet some clubs struggle to get a couple of quality players from a bunch of top 10 picks.

There is definetly something to the theory that having too many top picks seem to make clubs a bit lazy in picking and developing talent.

 

[Scotland]

Just lol. I love how this keeps coming up. Actually i dont it gets pretty tiring hearing this.

It was a semi final. It was last year. And Carlton lost.

The winner of the SF progresses to the PF, so Carlton were in fact 3 points away from the PF...

Anyway, I'm sure Carlton will blame 2012 on injuries, just like they did in 2011.

 

[royals1922]

I'm not sure what the point of your last line is, all I did was point that some trades work and others don't.

Yeah, I am saying that two of our trades were duds and it has been costly - no doubt. We had Kreuzer, Hampson and Jacobs at the time, so why we went after Warnock still mystifies me. And three years ago we had a KPP weakness and a strong midfield, so we brought in Brock for a first rounder when no-one else would have paid that much for him, and Kane Lucas was taken in the first round (who now can't get a game, much to the bewilderment of most Carlton supporters). Frustratingly, had we used picks 11 & 12 more wisely that year, we would start to see the fruits now after 50+ AFL games with a more consistent supply of talent with regards to the age-spread. Similarly, the players that came through together a few years ago as a tight, young group that you mention have fallen off a cliff recently (eg. Jordan Russell).

However I guess not everything we've done can be a mistake if we've made finals the last three years, but importantly now we are at a critical point in the clubs development (after this years failings) and what we do really determines our next three years and any chance of a flag with this current group. And for the record, I really hope we don't go after the quick fix this time with playing list. Back on the original topic of the coach - is Ratten the right man? I don't know from my desk at work. If he isn't he should go right now & we should start looking for the best now, if he is the man we need to properly support him so he can do his job and get the most of this list (which does have talent, but clearly isn't the finished product).

First of all I'm not and have not been trolling.

an example - back in 2005 finished 7th and then perpetuated the Jonathon Hay/McConnell/Rawlings trade fiasco ( in which NM gave up picks 13, 18, 29 and 46 and got 15 games out of their traded for players) in order to top up their list.

They came 14th the next year and have since then rebuilt through the draft. In 2007 to 2008 they made finals, including a prelim but continued rebuilding through the draft with 3 poorish seasons after the prelim.

Now Ratten maybe A problem but I do not believe he is THE problem. It is a systemic problem that only games in talented young players can fix. And no new coach can wave a magic wand and instantly give players experience.

 

[Lord Nicholson]

Sanderson

Actually, I think that's a choice example of when a coach has had to go - what has happened this year demonstrates that the Crows were somewhat squandered potential in the last few years of Craig's tenure.

Even though Craig was always bullish about that group, it's quite different to the Ratten situation since you cannot conclusively say that they are necessarily playing the way they are because Ratten is coach. It's his responsibility, though, and that's why the sword of Damocles hangs over most coaches chairs. If not all.

Maybe,maybenot but people are forgetting the main issue. Should Ratten go - possibly- but Ratten is not the sole cause of this year. The problem is/was more systemic and getting a new coach, whoever it is,may not achieve what Carlton supporters expect.

Their player identification has been average, exacerbated by some average player development and the team has been given the bandaid treament with top up players for years.

True, but that's why if they go after Malthouse the length of the contract is critical. I'd say 2 years, really, but the question is if Malthouse would accept.

With the advent of free agency you don't know if there are just a few cogs that need to be filled and then the whole thing runs smoothly. I think given Carlton's position and having shown what they can do under duress in finals they would be looking at that rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Perhaps it's something as simple as mere communication, something that Malthouse has never seemed to have an issue with.

I think the criticism of their drafting is a touch extreme, because some of them look like worldbeaters when the team as a whole functions, which is true of about 85% of AFL players. All this guff about Josh Hill's resurrection for instance... he's playing in a vastly superior unit. I believe that's the case for a significant portion of Carlton's list, that they're only as good as what's around them, but I don't think that's extroardinary at all. The questions being asked of them now weren't being asked in Rd 3, anyway.

 

[BlueDW]

Amazing, the commentators were complaining of the humidity, i checked the weather on the net and it said 82% humidity. Oh well i guess they had to talk about something, Carlton were playing so badly they must've have been in shock and didn't feel the cold?

It is a funny little stadium, a real party atmosphere...I live in Brisbane, so I didnt fly up, it was a warmish day, but in winter up here mate, as soon as the sun goes down in winter, typically the heat disappears...it was cold, and Dermie is a wanka!

 

[The Goon]

It must be that time of year again when some Coach is sacrificed on the alter of expediency and made a scapegoat for the unprofessional acts of their players. Carlton have a good history of sacking guys so Ratten has every right to be worried.

One thing to any new coach - get rid of Judd as your Captain. Poor onfield performances also indicate poor leadership amongst the players. Judds Captaincy has been a complete failure and he seems like he is a poor leader of men.

My impression of a sacrifice on the altar of expediency.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Just lol. I love how this keeps coming up. Actually i dont it gets pretty tiring hearing this.

It was a semi final. It was last year. And Carlton lost.

As Vin Diesel would say - It doesn't matter if you lose by an inch or a mile; Losing's losing

Not only that, but Carlton were something like 4 goals down midway through that last quarter with the game seemingly well in control. The 3 point margin was achieved after a flurry of goals when West Coast took their foot off the pedal, and also the ball bounced nicely for Jeff Garlett, so there was also some luck involved.

I also hated hearing that Carlton didn't have Kreuzer or Gibbs or Waite, so those inclusions would have automatically ensured a victory. Football isn't played on paper, and even if it was, West Coast had their share of omissions too.

I guess the excuse for Carlton this year will be those 8 extra scoring shots they had.

 

[HARKER]

Not only that, but Carlton were something like 4 goals down midway through that last quarter with the game seemingly well in control. The 3 point margin was achieved after a flurry of goals when West Coast took their foot off the pedal, and also the ball bounced nicely for Jeff Garlett, so there was also some luck involved.

I also hated hearing that Carlton didn't have Kreuzer or Gibbs or Waite, so those inclusions would have automatically ensured a victory. Football isn't played on paper, and even if it was, West Coast had their share of omissions too.

In summary, football isn't played on paper but luck is more likely the determining factor in a teams fortunes. Beauty

 

[Hodgepodge]

The attendance at the game against StKilda will be interesting and could decide Ratten's future.