List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[GhostofJimJess]

You know a while back I was watching a new player and thinking he wouldn't make it, always got caught with the ball for a start, and didn't do much, but they persevered with him, it was Liam Baker.

I know the feeling. I was on the verge of saying the same about Maurice Minor after the first praccy match this year - the one that went for about 17 quarters. Held my tongue thankfully - can't believe he's become a regular now.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I think we are getting the balance of youngsters spot on right now.

Name me which players not regulars in the senior team have a right to feel disgruntled with their non-selection during 2022 thus far.



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[TheOptimum18]

I think we are getting the balance of youngsters spot on right now.

Name me which players not regulars in the senior team have a right to feel disgruntled with their non-selection during 2022 thus far.

Generally, I agree with this sentiment.

Although I do think Dow is a little stiff, but considering he came back from injury, understandable. Though I do think he should come in for Ross this week.

The one that I do think deserves an AFL game though is Cumberland. Feel like he has had multiple goal kicking performances now in the VFL, and can play as a marking target.

 

[Dr Tigris]

we've got a hell of a lot of work to do if we are gonna challenge for the flag this year.

Completely agree.

But the reason we've lost a lot of game isn't that we aren't good enough. It's losing our mojo for a quarter, or a few stupid brain explosions like against the Swans. What worries me is that it often our leaders that do those stupid things.

But, except for Melbourne, we could have own every game.

So if we do win this year we snuck it in, not won through dominance. But I reckon there's Melbourne, then day light, then Brisbane, then the rest easing off one another tot eh crap at the bottom. We can pinch it, but it'd be luck and timing our run that got us there.

 

[Falcon3518]

Completely agree.

But the reason we've lost a lot of game isn't that we aren't good enough. It's losing our mojo for a quarter, or a few stupid brain explosions like against the Swans. What worries me is that it often our leaders that do those stupid things.

But, except for Melbourne, we could have own every game.

So if we do win this year we snuck it in, not won through dominance. But I reckon there's Melbourne, then day light, then Brisbane, then the rest easing off one another tot eh crap at the bottom. We can pinch it, but it'd be luck and timing our run that got us there.

I think the Sydney game cost us top 4. At best we will finish 5-6 and win 1 final imo. If this happens, we keep Dusty and Dusty wins goal of the year with the kick in the hawks game the season is a success for me. What about you guys?

 

[tunksy]

Completely agree.

But the reason we've lost a lot of game isn't that we aren't good enough. It's losing our mojo for a quarter, or a few stupid brain explosions like against the Swans. What worries me is that it often our leaders that do those stupid things.

But, except for Melbourne, we could have own every game.

So if we do win this year we snuck it in, not won through dominance. But I reckon there's Melbourne, then day light, then Brisbane, then the rest easing off one another tot eh crap at the bottom. We can pinch it, but it'd be luck and timing our run that got us there.

Your last line is spot on. Gotta time the run right. If we are playing consistently at our best in the last quarter of the year teams will be looking at us..

I'm hopeful defensively we start to really settle and become hard to score against again.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Your last line is spot on. Gotta time the run right. If we are playing consistently at our best in the last quarter of the year teams will be looking at us..

I'm hopeful defensively we start to really settle and become hard to score against again.

Our pressure is spotty. Against the swans at times they couldn't move the ball. Amazing stuff. But then they started moving it in zig zags and we slacked off.

But at our best we can compete with anyone. At our best - not at our normal like 2017-2020.

 

[Dr Tigris]

I think the Sydney game cost us top 4. At best we will finish 5-6 and win 1 final imo. If this happens, we keep Dusty and Dusty wins goal of the year with the kick in the hawks game the season is a success for me. What about you guys?

Meh. That'd be a pass year, but not what I want.

I think top 4 is wide open still. But we've made it very hard for ourselves now.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Generally, I agree with this sentiment.

Although I do think Dow is a little stiff, but considering he came back from injury, understandable. Though I do think he should come in for Ross this week.

The one that I do think deserves an AFL game though is Cumberland. Feel like he has had multiple goal kicking performances now in the VFL, and can play as a marking target.

Yeah, I put in him down as one of my "ins" this time last week but got shot down a bit on the "Changes" thread. Felt a bit vindicated when he came into the 23 just before game time. I reckon he's the type of player who will be far better when he's surrounded by class - he's got some tricks and knows where the big sticks are, that's for sure.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Generally, I agree with this sentiment.

Although I do think Dow is a little stiff, but considering he came back from injury, understandable. Though I do think he should come in for Ross this week.

The one that I do think deserves an AFL game though is Cumberland. Feel like he has had multiple goal kicking performances now in the VFL, and can play as a marking target.

Dow was given loads of CBA’s earlier in the season and showed great promise before injury hit. And since returning from injury the team has gotten back Prestia, Dusty and now has Short playing more midfield - plus Cotch is playing some really good footy. I don’t think he has being dominating VFL to command a return to the team …… so he has been unlucky but wouldn’t feel slighted.

Cumberland perhaps a touch … but Richmond does have the second best offence in the competition and whilst he has played a few handy VFL games, he has not quite demanded a spot. Last week showed he’s clearly on the cusp of selection.

Other than that we’ve seen spasmodic VFL performances from Stack, RCD, Miller, Sonsie, Clarke etc…. whereby they have not really put their names ‘up in lights’ for selection on a regular
basis. So none of them would feel slighted by not being in the team.

So I do hear a lot of comments of ‘play the kids’ and ‘look to the future’ …. but there simply aren’t any kids demanding games who aren’t seeing regular AFL action already. If you are a young kid and perform at VFL and then hold your own at AFL level you will get games (eg. Dow early in year before injury, Gibcus, MRJ, Ralphsmith was in before breaking ribs then straight back in after a dominant VFL game etc…). And if on the cusp you will be given a taste but may not stay in if you don’t really perform and there is a squeeze at selection (eg. Stack who had 5 touches and no goals in a 100-point win, Biggy who didn’t quite look at the level yet, Miller who looked all at sea v Adelaide).

So I think the club is handling the old v new balance perfectly right now. But I’m supportive of more kids getting games in the back-end of the year if our season is cooked - but not right now if a seasoned player is a better option.


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[_RT_]

Why does it have to be either/or?

We are not going to get another chance at a flag with these ageing guns. We just need to have them on the park and stay on the park.

At the same time we had a decent draft hand last year and another promising one this year which should set us up well for the future.

Would you seriously want to put games into RCD (btw a spud), Dow, Biggie, Ryan, Cumberland, Miller, etc. ahead of a fit Cotchin, Tarrant, Riewoldt, Grimes, Edwards? Surely not?

We all accept there's likely to be a dip once these guns bow out, but hell, if we can have another flag in 2022, I'm more than happy to watch the development of the team over the ensuing years as a noin-finalist.

We've put games into kids this year and the only time they've played ahead of Cotchin Tarrant Grimes Edwards and co is when they have been injured/rested so it is more likely to continue to happen as the season unfolds as we will no doubt continue to have injuries and/or suspensions, plus the odd 'managed' game for the older guys when we've got a short turn around and they pull up sore. The only time I've said we should play the kids over the older guys, if fit, is if the older guys form isn't warranting selection in the senior side.

As I said last night, I'm looking at things from a long term viewpoint rather than a short term as I don't see us being a premiership contender unless a lot of things go right in terms of injuries & discipline and consistency improves, and some teams ahead of us have some issues that bring them back to the pack. As it stands we have a 1-4 record against teams that have been or are in the 8, with the win being against Collingwood (who are about the same level as us in terms of being mid table). In our losses we gave up 7 goals in a quarter to Carlton to get overran, conceded 10 goals in the second half against the Saints, against Melbourne it was 31-14 scoring shots and we lost by 22, had they converted it would have been a 10 goal loss and last weekend against Sydney we were outscored in the second half 63-36.

So in terms of this year, I'm happy with us sitting on the fringe of the 8 while we've been putting games into those players who started the season with under 30 games, because I believe that down the track when the older guys have moved on those younger guys will be much better placed to step into the void. For me seeing Dow RCD Ross Miller Gibcus Maurice and the like being played in games and having an impact regardless of the result, because the more they get exposed to that the better.

I don't want to find ourselves in a situation where we have a heap of experienced guys pull the pin and we don't have ready made replacements already on the list to step in and fill the void, whether they'll be at the same level as Cotchin Edwards Riewoldt Lambert who knows, that will be worked out once they take their spot in the side, but by giving them the foundation we're doing now I believe we'll be well placed.

If by some chance things were to go our way and we pinched a 4th flag with this group then that's a bonus, but the one thing I don't want to to repeat what happened following our last era of success where we went 37 years before we tasted premiership success again.

 

[db26]

I'm not worried about last year's crops drafted , but we need to make the call on Ross , Rcd , Stack , Parker , Cumberland , Martyn if any good enough to go forward I have doubts. Ross has had games and Parker , but I want to see Cumberland , Martyn and Rcd aswell as well as Stack.

 

[Masotiger]

We've put games into kids this year and the only time they've played ahead of Cotchin Tarrant Grimes Edwards and co is when they have been injured/rested so it is more likely to continue to happen as the season unfolds as we will no doubt continue to have injuries and/or suspensions, plus the odd 'managed' game for the older guys when we've got a short turn around and they pull up sore. The only time I've said we should play the kids over the older guys, if fit, is if the older guys form isn't warranting selection in the senior side.

As I said last night, I'm looking at things from a long term viewpoint rather than a short term as I don't see us being a premiership contender unless a lot of things go right in terms of injuries & discipline and consistency improves, and some teams ahead of us have some issues that bring them back to the pack. As it stands we have a 1-4 record against teams that have been or are in the 8, with the win being against Collingwood (who are about the same level as us in terms of being mid table). In our losses we gave up 7 goals in a quarter to Carlton to get overran, conceded 10 goals in the second half against the Saints, against Melbourne it was 31-14 scoring shots and we lost by 22, had they converted it would have been a 10 goal loss and last weekend against Sydney we were outscored in the second half 63-36.

So in terms of this year, I'm happy with us sitting on the fringe of the 8 while we've been putting games into those players who started the season with under 30 games, because I believe that down the track when the older guys have moved on those younger guys will be much better placed to step into the void. For me seeing Dow RCD Ross Miller Gibcus Maurice and the like being played in games and having an impact regardless of the result, because the more they get exposed to that the better.

I don't want to find ourselves in a situation where we have a heap of experienced guys pull the pin and we don't have ready made replacements already on the list to step in and fill the void, whether they'll be at the same level as Cotchin Edwards Riewoldt Lambert who knows, that will be worked out once they take their spot in the side, but by giving them the foundation we're doing now I believe we'll be well placed.

If by some chance things were to go our way and we pinched a 4th flag with this group then that's a bonus, but the one thing I don't want to to repeat what happened following our last era of success where we went 37 years before we tasted premiership success again.

I get your drift.

But let me start where you finished. The 37 years in the abyss for us didn't come from not playing youth. It came from a stupid desire for retribution against a foe who raided us, therefore we chose to raid them. Sent us broke and incapable of moving into the professional era. Different era, different attitudes.

We can still have one eye on the future whilst we focus on a best possible outcome in the present. I'm all for resting our ageing guns and giving the next generation a taste of what they should expect, but when the business end of the season arrives and if our best players are available we play them. 2022 will be our last chance at glory with this team. The 2 variables for us are: 1) have our best players available, and 2) have them playing at their best. If these 2 variables are met we can win it this year. Our best is as good as anyone's.

In terms of next year and beyond, our club is in a very strong position. We would bounce back very quickly. No doubt many of our guns that have taken us on a magnificent ride will bow out in the next 2 years. But our football department is well funded. Recruitment, development, other support structures are all there. We are a financially viable entity. A far cry from the dreaded stench of death we reeked after our 1982 GF loss.

Have faith mate, we're going to be strong in the foreseeable future. Our biggest enemy is ourselves.

 

[Mr Magic]

I get your drift.

But let me start where you finished. The 37 years in the abyss for us didn't come from not playing youth. It came from a stupid desire for retribution against a foe who raided us, therefore we chose to raid them. Sent us broke and incapable of moving into the professional era. Different era, different attitudes.

We can still have one eye on the future whilst we focus on a best possible outcome in the present. I'm all for resting our ageing guns and giving the next generation a taste of what they should expect, but when the business end of the season arrives and if our best players are available we play them. 2022 will be our last chance at glory with this team. The 2 variables for us are: 1) have our best players available, and 2) have them playing at their best. If these 2 variables are met we can win it this year. Our best is as good as anyone's.

In terms of next year and beyond, our club is in a very strong position. We would bounce back very quickly. No doubt many of our guns that have taken us on a magnificent ride will bow out in the next 2 years. But our football department is well funded. Recruitment, development, other support structures are all there. We are a financially viable entity. A far cry from the dreaded stench of death we reeked after our 1982 GF loss.

Have faith mate, we're going to be strong in the foreseeable future. Our biggest enemy is ourselves.

"2022 will be our last chance at glory with this team" I am not buying that.

I think we have a better chance in 2023 and 2024

The reasons are simple, the 2021 draftees have another preseason and year of development complementing our existing crew. Not to mention other development like Ralphsmith. Who is going to drop off?, JR, yeah nah, JR will still be going strong

 

[Masotiger]

"2022 will be our last chance at glory with this team" I am not buying that.

I think we have a better chance in 2023 and 2024

The reasons are simple, the 2021 draftees have another preseason and year of development complementing our existing crew. Not to mention other development like Ralphsmith. Who is going to drop off?, JR, yeah nah, JR will still be going strong

I hope you're right, but I think it's wishful thinking on your behalf.

Our 2021 draftees are nowhere near replacing the likes of Cotchin, Edwards, Lambert, etc. who will be calling it quits at seasons end.

Realistically, we're 4 to 5 years off challenging again after this year.

 

[_RT_]

I get your drift.

But let me start where you finished. The 37 years in the abyss for us didn't come from not playing youth. It came from a stupid desire for retribution against a foe who raided us, therefore we chose to raid them. Sent us broke and incapable of moving into the professional era. Different era, different attitudes.

We can still have one eye on the future whilst we focus on a best possible outcome in the present. I'm all for resting our ageing guns and giving the next generation a taste of what they should expect, but when the business end of the season arrives and if our best players are available we play them. 2022 will be our last chance at glory with this team. The 2 variables for us are: 1) have our best players available, and 2) have them playing at their best. If these 2 variables are met we can win it this year. Our best is as good as anyone's.

In terms of next year and beyond, our club is in a very strong position. We would bounce back very quickly. No doubt many of our guns that have taken us on a magnificent ride will bow out in the next 2 years. But our football department is well funded. Recruitment, development, other support structures are all there. We are a financially viable entity. A far cry from the dreaded stench of death we reeked after our 1982 GF loss.

Have faith mate, we're going to be strong in the foreseeable future. Our biggest enemy is ourselves.

I agree with your middle paragraph where we play our best 22 where all are available and in form, however we both are smart enough to realise that it's unlikely to happen when the whips are cracking at the end of the season, so we're going to need younger players ready to go for when that eventuates which is why I've enjoyed seeing so many of them getting opportunities because if we do need them I believe they'll be ready to step up.

As I've said all along this season, I don't believe we're a premiership threat, at best I think we can make the 8 maybe win a final or 2 if everything goes right but can also repeat last years finish if we have a bad run of injuries or our form drops off a little. That's how finely balanced I see it.

 

[Mr Magic]

I hope you're right, but I think it's wishful thinking on your behalf.

Our 2021 draftees are nowhere near replacing the likes of Cotchin, Edwards, Lambert, etc. who will be calling it quits at seasons end.

Realistically, we're 4 to 5 years off challenging again after this year.

I am not buying that and Cotch should not call it quits. We can win another premiership without Edwards and Lambert I think

 

[Masotiger]

I agree with your middle paragraph where we play our best 22 where all are available and in form, however we both are smart enough to realise that it's unlikely to happen when the whips are cracking at the end of the season, so we're going to need younger players ready to go for when that eventuates which is why I've enjoyed seeing so many of them getting opportunities because if we do need them I believe they'll be ready to step up.

As I've said all along this season, I don't believe we're a premiership threat, at best I think we can make the 8 maybe win a final or 2 if everything goes right but can also repeat last years finish if we have a bad run of injuries or our form drops off a little. That's how finely balanced I see it.

Really?

Why not?

There's no reason why the 2 variables I mentioned in my previous post can't happen. Many premiership teams over the years have gone into the ultimate game of the season at full strength.

 

[Forensi Tiger]

which players are now not as good as they were in 2020 and/or can’t get better any more?

Dusty
Cotch
Lambert
Prestia
Edwards
Riewoldt
Nankervis
Mcintosh
Vlastuin
grimes
Lynch?

These can’t get better
Castagna
Broad
Pickett
Graham
Soldo

I reckon 11 of our best 22 have all played their best footy in the past and another 5 ain’t gonna improve.

I am pessimistic about us this year and definitely also about 2023/4

 

[_RT_]

Really?

Why not?

There's no reason why the 2 variables I mentioned in my previous post can't happen. Many premiership teams over the years have gone into the ultimate game of the season at full strength.

Because we have a large number of older players who are consistently picking up soft tissue injuries or in Lamberts case structural issues with the hip. So unless we are extremely lucky I don't see us having our best 22 on the park when the whips are cracking and I think most would acknowledge that it's unlikely as well.

 

[Mr Magic]

which players are now not as good as they were in 2020 and/or can’t get better any more?

Dusty
Cotch
Lambert
Prestia
Edwards
Riewoldt
Nankervis
Mcintosh
Vlastuin
grimes
Lynch?

These can’t get better
Castagna
Broad
Pickett
Graham
Soldo

I reckon 11 of our best 22 have all played their best footy in the past and another 5 ain’t gonna improve.

I am pessimistic about us this year and definitely also about 2023/4

I think that is too negative

Dusty, Cotch, Prestia who has had a few injuries, JR, Nank, McIntosh, Vlastuin, Grimes, Lynch, Broad possibly, Pickett, Graham can maintain a high standard, throw in Bolton, Balta, improved Gibcus, Ralpsmith and others in the draftees including Short, Rioli etc,, we can sneek it in 2023 and possibly 2024

I have not given up on the likes of Stack, RCD and Biggy yet. Cumberland is another that might improve along with the recent draftees, we do not know how MJ will kick on yet. I am not looking at this through a Geelong lens. I think we are not necessarily Geelong because we would be relying on the youngsters for the rise and improvement moreso apart from getting players in from outside

 

[Noidnadroj]

"2022 will be our last chance at glory with this team" I am not buying that.

I think we have a better chance in 2023 and 2024

The reasons are simple, the 2021 draftees have another preseason and year of development complementing our existing crew. Not to mention other development like Ralphsmith. Who is going to drop off?, JR, yeah nah, JR will still be going strong

Up until the last month I also thought 2022 was our last hurrah, but I’m also not convinced based on what I’ve seen the first 11-games…. Here are things I wasn’t confident of going into this season but I’ve seen enough now to be convinced :

1. Cotchin is playing terrific footy and I was certain this season would be his last, but I see no reason why he can’t play good footy next season. He’s received coach’s votes in 3-4 games this season. A bonus for 2023.

2. As above for JRoo. Playing good footy and on his way to a 35-40 goal season. Can’t see why 2023 won’t be similar as he looks good physically.

3. Tom Lynch. I thought his best footy was behind him but was Coleman leader before injury and playing the best footy of his career.

4. Ralphsmith and Dow. Dow showed some excellent signs early before getting injured. Ralphsmith is going to be a player. Both were unknowns going into 2022 but I’m convinced now they have some real quality and will be staples in the team 2023 on.

5. Gibcus. Looks a 10+ year gun. Will be staggered if he’s not a star player from very early in career.

6. MRJ. Didn’t look like he was up to AFL level but has shown good early signs and will only get better, so add to Dow and Ralphsmith as players with question marks who can impact at AFL level.

7. Dan Rioli and Short. Rioli’s move has meant Short can play midfield where he has shown he can play a role. So our midfield that looked very light on is not so bad with Dow and Short new inclusions as well as Cotchin looking revitalised.

8. Other top-30 draftees. All look to have great potential. Would be very surprised if at least 2 of them aren’t making an impact from 2023…. Sonsie yet another player who makes me less worried about our future midfield .

9. The three B’s. Baker, Balta and Bolton have all stepped up again and will be prime age and experience to play their best footy from 2023 onwards. None of them have turned 25yo yet.

10. Prestia’s return. Was very worried we’d never get more than a handful of games each season. His early season injury had me thinking it was almost career over. But perhaps his new training regime has helped him as he has proven he’s still elite.

So I was convinced 2022 was our last hurrah. But I think we just lose Caddy and probably Edwards and Lambert.

The club has done an outstanding transition on the run and with any luck we can do a Geelong of 2012 onwards, where everyone thought they’d implode as they lost over a few seasons Mooney, Ling, Chapman, Bartel, Corey, Enright, Mackie, Stevie J, Taylor etc…. but the end just never came. Unlike the Cats we will obviously fill the trophy cabinet on the way through ….

Bring on 2023!


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[GhostofJimJess]

Up until the last month I also thought 2022 was our last hurrah, but I’m also not convinced based on what I’ve seen the first 11-games…. Here are things I wasn’t confident of going into this season but I’ve seen enough now to be convinced :

1. Cotchin is playing terrific footy and I was certain this season would be his last, but I see no reason why he can’t play good footy next season. He’s received coach’s votes in 3-4 games this season. A bonus for 2023.

2. As above for JRoo. Playing good footy and on his way to a 35-40 goal season. Can’t see why 2023 won’t be similar as he looks good physically.

3. Tom Lynch. I thought his best footy was behind him but was Coleman leader before injury and playing the best footy of his career.

4. Ralphsmith and Dow. Dow showed some excellent signs early before getting injured. Ralphsmith is going to be a player. Both were unknowns going into 2022 but I’m convinced now they have some real quality and will be staples in the team 2023 on.

5. Gibcus. Looks a 10+ year gun. Will be staggered if he’s not a star player from very early in career.

6. MRJ. Didn’t look like he was up to AFL level but has shown good early signs and will only get better, so add to Dow and Ralphsmith as players with question marks who can impact at AFL level.

7. Dan Rioli and Short. Rioli’s move has meant Short can play midfield where he has shown he can play a role. So our midfield that looked very light on is not so bad with Dow and Short new inclusions as well as Cotchin looking revitalised.

8. Other top-30 draftees. All look to have great potential. Would be very surprised if at least 2 of them aren’t making an impact from 2023…. Sonsie yet another player who makes me less worried about our future midfield .

9. The three B’s. Baker, Balta and Bolton have all stepped up again and will be prime age and experience to play their best footy from 2023 onwards. None of them have turned 25yo yet.

10. Prestia’s return. Was very worried we’d never get more than a handful of games each season. His early season injury had me thinking it was almost career over. But perhaps his new training regime has helped him as he has proven he’s still elite.

So I was convinced 2022 was our last hurrah. But I think we just lose Caddy and probably Edwards and Lambert.

The club has done an outstanding transition on the run and with any luck we can do a Geelong of 2012 onwards, where everyone thought they’d implode as they lost over a few seasons Mooney, Ling, Chapman, Bartel, Corey, Enright, Mackie, Stevie J, Taylor etc…. but the end just never came. Unlike the Cats we will obviously fill the trophy cabinet on the way through ….

Bring on 2023!

Brilliant post mate. Couldn't agree more, especially re Cotch.

 

[Madtiger2006]

If Reiwoldt Cotchin and Lambert retire we should trade Dusty. We desperately need the best tall forward in the draft. We should also try get Walker from Adelaide

 

[tunksy]

If Reiwoldt Cotchin and Lambert retire we should trade Dusty. We desperately need the best tall forward in the draft. We should also try get Walker from Adelaide

walker can gagf. racist campaigner of a bloke. absolute muppet.

i do hope youre taking the piss