List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[_RT_]

Just like Lambo he’s a needed player

Never said he wasn't, just pointed out that he hasn't played most of the year.

 

[Daka]

We need a mini rebuild, I have not moved on this since the start of the year.

Some of our players just can't run out 4 quarters it's old age/playing new kids. we aren't playing many kids tbh. not as much as we could be.

 

[TigerTime88]

Still think Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lambert (body cooked) and Edwards should all move on at the end of the year.

Castagna, Tarrant, McIntosh should all be relegated to being placed behind young kids. Time for a new generation. Still enough experience there to guide them.

 

[Daka]

Still think Cotchin, Riewoldt, Lambert (body cooked) and Edwards should all move on at the end of the year.

Castagna, Tarrant, McIntosh should all be relegated to being placed behind young kids. Time for a new generation. Still enough experience there to guide them.

You can't retire them all at once though you lose too much experience at once, Lambert, Edwards will be the most likely to go.
Riewoldt playing on next year is almost a certaintly.
Cotch has had his good games & poor games but has looked better than Edwards.

So I'd assume 2 go and 2 stay on the list.

 

[_RT_]

You can't retire them all at once though you lose too much experience at once, Lambert, Edwards will be the most likely to go.
Riewoldt playing on next year is almost a certaintly.
Cotch has had his good games & poor games but has looked better than Edwards.

So I'd assume 2 go and 2 stay on the list.

I think we can have them all go if we want to establish the next generation and take the backwards step needed to then go forward again. Otherwise weface the prospect of missing the window and then finding ourselves in no mans land.

 

[fargothegreat]

I think we can have them all go if we want to establish the next generation and take the backwards step needed to then go forward again. Otherwise weface the prospect of missing the window and then finding ourselves in no mans land.

Yeah for me this year is a bit of a last hoorah, and then we need to speed up the regeneration of the list. Can't be like Hawthorn and take five years to even start rebuilding.

I'm totally comfortable with losing all of Caddy, Lambert, Edwards, Cotch and Jack at the end of the year.

 

[_RT_]

Yeah for me this year is a bit of a last hoorah, and then we need to speed up the regeneration of the list. Can't be like Hawthorn and take five years to even start rebuilding.

I'm totally comfortable with losing all of Caddy, Lambert, Edwards, Cotch and Jack at the end of the year.

As I said yesterday it's very easy to get caught up in being on the fringes of the top 8 and thinking we're a chance if we can get everything to go right we can steal a flag or that we're thereabouts that a bit of a top up at the end of the year can see us go again. When you do that you end up like Hawthorn as you said, wasting 5 years in no mans land continually topping up that when you finally realise that you're no longer a contender, you find yourself going backwards even more as you then start the rebuild with no real leadership around to support the younger players.

Right now we have that good balance between experience and developing types and we can achieve the long term goal of developing the kids, while also playing competitive footy which IMO helps develop the kids more than playing uncompetitive games. Some will suggest that this is the wrong way to go about it and that to truly rebuild we need to completely bottom out so we get access to the genuine top talent in the draft, but I believe we can build a premiership winning list, by having a quite even spread of talent across the board, then adding the finishing pieces through trade & free agency.

 

[Mr Magic]

You can't retire them all at once though you lose too much experience at once, Lambert, Edwards will be the most likely to go.
Riewoldt playing on next year is almost a certaintly.
Cotch has had his good games & poor games but has looked better than Edwards.

So I'd assume 2 go and 2 stay on the list.

I tend to agree.

Lumping Reiwoldt in with these others is ridiculous and I am not Tasmanian blowing up favouritism.

The fact is JR is generational, the others largely are not.

JR is not reliant on his speed so much rather his craft. JR does not interfere with the other forwards like Lynch and including Gibcus that are different types.

JR cannot be replaced anywhere near as easily as the others.

Carrying on as if JR is part of some recyclement program is ridiculous and most know generally I am always banging on about the youth and development

COtch has also been okay this year and we do not have many like him either,

The fact is we have had some youngsters that have not developed as well as we would have hoped. I have not seen much of them but it appears Cumberland has done more than Martyn and yet Martyn is on the main list is he not? Why Ross also seems to be on his last legs. Kicking the ball out of bounds on the weekend, yeah nah, I am not sure he will reach a higher ceiling. I suppose Jack Ross is 21 but if he was 23 I would show him the door for sure. To me Jack Ross takes too long kicking the ball and really should sort out his kicking style if possible. Frankly I have doubts he ever will be good enough. A guy like Ralphsmith has clearly shown more and his goal from a fair way out was very encouraging and cause to keep persevering with in his development as a comparison. There is a expectation Ralphsmith should improve with more physical development and maturity as he is only 20 with a fair frame

I think Dimma does not spin the magnets enough, however I am encouraged by him giving Gibcus a go. Dimma is not as bad as Leon Cameron I think Leon was too conservative, too status quo, and did not reinvigorate the group enough to the point he stifled development at GWS probably. I look at McVeigh at the GWS and they are instatnly improved with Himmelberg into the backline and other shifts just to experiment and show a different look. GWS development under Leon was far too rigid and restrictive which probably impeded the players opportunity and mentality

I do give Dimma credit moving some players around has assisted in refreshing and stimulating the group which has been pleasing to see like Short in the middle at times and Rioli in the backline

 

[TigerTime88]

You can't retire them all at once though you lose too much experience at once, Lambert, Edwards will be the most likely to go.
Riewoldt playing on next year is almost a certaintly.
Cotch has had his good games & poor games but has looked better than Edwards.

So I'd assume 2 go and 2 stay on the list.

I disagree because there is still a heap of experience.

Prestia, Lynch, Nank, Grimes, Broad, Short, Rioli ect.

 

[tiger_tough]

Well Weitering won't be there when we play blues. Huge few weeks coming up, we should still be aiming for top 4.

 

[Mr Magic]

The thing with this rebuild refresh argument is it is all about premierships. Fremantle rolling Melbourne the way they did suggests we still could jag one if the stars align in the next few years.

I think going hard rebuild is the wrong play for us at the moment, but we could do with some tweaking

 

[Noidnadroj]

Sydney had The Love Bite Hickey out and he's been outstanding all year.

Which allowed Ladhams to ruck all night… and he played a career best game … he’s got 2 x career best games now …. Both against us.


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[Noidnadroj]

Was merely pointing out he has missed more than half the season, so it's not like he has been integral to how they have gone this year.

Lambert has clearly shown just how important he is to our structure and the way we play. Hickey is much the same for the Swans when up and running is important to their structure and how they play.

No one mentioned Blakely as he was a late out like Pickett was for us and agree he was a big loss, hence Mills going back to fill the role once the Swans realised they were missing his creativity from D50.

Agree regarding us gambling on the older blokes being able to go to the well one more time and having the same impact. As I just wrote above, it's easy to get caught up with us being on the fringes of the 8 and thinking maybe, just maybe, they can achieve the final flag together, but our record clearly says that's not the case.

Against teams in the top 8 we are 0-4 with a % of 78 and sit 14th of 18 sides. Against the bottom 8 we're 4-1 with a % of 148 and rank 7th of 18 sides. Clearly we're a middle of the table side and I continue to believe that we should be prioritising the development of the kids over chasing a dream as we can hurt our long term future by doing so.

Prioritising the development of the kids …. we were a whisker away from being 7-4 and a game off 4th going into the bye, with 4 x MCG matches coming up.

But you want to knock on I assume Riewoldt, Cotchin, Lambert and Edwards door and tell ‘em ‘post bye we’re going with the kids’.

A lot of people have short memories… we made 2 x finals series in 35-years. All I hoped for for 3+ decades was being competitive each week and not the punchline to opposition supporter jokes.

We are more chance of winning the 2022 flag than we were of winning the 2017 flag at 5-4 coming off our 4th straight loss, so I want them to keep going 100% at this season until its cooked.

We are playing some great footy and have done all season … we just sprinkle it in with too much crap. But that doesn’t have to be permanent. Most of the crap is self inflicted and not relating to ability or selection. It’s 50m penalties, free kicks in front of goal, poor decisions etc…. It’s
not due to Cotchin being 31 or Riewoldt being 33.

Anyway… I’ve seen enough garbage in my time amongst 17 x 5-year plans involving kids and draft picks and ‘potential’. We’ve got a team who can win every week, make finals and has a flukers chance of a flag …. don’t turn your back on that as there are zero guarantees we won’t spend another decade out of the finals.



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[Dr Tigris]

Prioritising the development of the kids …. we were a whisker away from being 7-4 and a game off 4th going into the bye, with 4 x MCG matches coming up.

But you want to knock on I assume Riewoldt, Cotchin, Lambert and Edwards door and tell ‘em ‘post bye we’re going with the kids’.

A lot of people have short memories… we made 2 x finals series in 35-years. All I hoped for for 3+ decades was being competitive each week and not the punchline to opposition supporter jokes.

We are more chance of winning the 2022 flag than we were of winning the 2017 flag at 5-4 coming off our 4th straight loss, so I want them to keep going 100% at this season until its cooked.

We are playing some great footy and have done all season … we just sprinkle it in with too much crap. But that doesn’t have to be permanent. Most of the crap is self inflicted and not relating to ability or selection. It’s 50m penalties, free kicks in front of goal, poor decisions etc…. It’s
not due to Cotchin being 31 or Riewoldt being 33.

Anyway… I’ve seen enough garbage in my time amongst 17 x 5-year plans involving kids and draft picks and ‘potential’. We’ve got a team who can win every week, make finals and has a flukers chance of a flag …. don’t turn your back on that as there are zero guarantees we won’t spend another decade out of the finals.



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Funny, you've said what I think.

Right now we are looking like the sort of team that might pinch a premiership, if we can clean our crap up.

And we are probably at least half way towards a good rebuild. Looks good to me

 

[tunksy]

Funny, you've said what I think.

Right now we are looking like the sort of team that might pinch a premiership, if we can clean our crap up.

And we are probably at least half way towards a good rebuild. Looks good to me

we've got a hell of a lot of work to do if we are gonna challenge for the flag this year.

 

[Noidnadroj]

we've got a hell of a lot of work to do if we are gonna challenge for the flag this year.

Agreed. But we’ve been in a position to win every game this season at 3/4 time. Many of those games we’ve been without multiple ‘best-10’ players whether that be : Lynch, Balta, Dusty, Grimes, Prestia, Vlastuin or Lambert.

If Lynch and Balta play v Swans we win easily. I realise every team has injuries, but we just need a little more luck post-bye and I’d be confident we can go on a run …. where it ends who knows.


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[_RT_]

Prioritising the development of the kids …. we were a whisker away from being 7-4 and a game off 4th going into the bye, with 4 x MCG matches coming up.

But you want to knock on I assume Riewoldt, Cotchin, Lambert and Edwards door and tell ‘em ‘post bye we’re going with the kids’.

A lot of people have short memories… we made 2 x finals series in 35-years. All I hoped for for 3+ decades was being competitive each week and not the punchline to opposition supporter jokes.

We are more chance of winning the 2022 flag than we were of winning the 2017 flag at 5-4 coming off our 4th straight loss, so I want them to keep going 100% at this season until its cooked.

We are playing some great footy and have done all season … we just sprinkle it in with too much crap. But that doesn’t have to be permanent. Most of the crap is self inflicted and not relating to ability or selection. It’s 50m penalties, free kicks in front of goal, poor decisions etc…. It’s
not due to Cotchin being 31 or Riewoldt being 33.

Anyway… I’ve seen enough garbage in my time amongst 17 x 5-year plans involving kids and draft picks and ‘potential’. We’ve got a team who can win every week, make finals and has a flukers chance of a flag …. don’t turn your back on that as there are zero guarantees we won’t spend another decade out of the finals.



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We got to this point in the season with the following players who started the season with under 30 games playing this year:

Gibcus 9
Ross 9
Ralphsmith 6
Aarts 6
Maurice 5
Dow 5
Parker 5
Miller 3
RCD 2
Mansell 2
Nyoun 1

That's 11 'kids' we've put games into on the way to a 6-5 record and nowhere have I said we don't aim to win as many games as possible. As I said it's easy to get caught up in the short term view of we're on the fringe of the 8 with our best 22 all but ready to go post the bye and we could steam into the finals and fluke a flag. However I'm looking at the bigger picture, which a lot of fans are unable to do, I find the best development for these kids is putting them in games like we played on Friday night, like ANZAC Eve, like the upcoming games against Port Carlton & Geelong, like when we played Carlton Collingwood & Essendon where they played in front of 60k+ people and got to experience what that atmosphere was like.

Remember back in those barren years between 1982-2013 there weren't many of those games that our players got to experience, so when they got to play in them we invariably shat the bed and got thumped in those games. Now when we play in those games the side knows what to expect and even when we've got a handful of kids playing in the games we're rarely thumped in fact our last 2 10 goal losses were 2019 against Geelong when we had a fair few injuries and last year which was the beginning of the end of the threepeat dream.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

I keep bringing this up. We only have 3 useable picks really. ATM they are 10, 20, 28, and then pick 82. Perhaps we could split 20 into two picks and get back into the 3rd round.
I'd say senior leavers should be Caddy, Lambert, Edwards and should be tapped on the shoulder if they seem like they are gearing up to go again (assuming all out of contract 2022). But I feel they know and will retire and that might include Cotch, is my feeling.
There are 4 spots already and we haven't even looked at possible younger players that may not be recontracted - Parker, Martyn as a start.

Six players - so Jack with no real KPF coming though, and we know he wants to play on, very likely a 2023 player.

If none of RCD, Ross and Dow take that next step to becoming impactful (ie 20+ 'good' possies in the seniors), we will be bottom 6 for a few seasons and the rebuild will be forced.

 

[tunksy]

Agreed. But we’ve been in a position to win every game this season at 3/4 time. Many of those games we’ve been without multiple ‘best-10’ players whether that be : Lynch, Balta, Dusty, Grimes, Prestia, Vlastuin or Lambert.

If Lynch and Balta play v Swans we win easily. I realise every team has injuries, but we just need a little more luck post-bye and I’d be confident we can go on a run …. where it ends who knows.


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which goes to show we need a heck of a lot of luck on the injury front too.

too many of our best 22 players have missed large chunks of games since 2021

 

[TigFan1966]

You know a while back I was watching a new player and thinking he wouldn't make it, always got caught with the ball for a start, and didn't do much, but they persevered with him, it was Liam Baker

3

Liam Baker

Age

28

Ht

173cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.7

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

7.9

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.7

3star

D

14.6

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

7.9

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

3star

CL

0.5

3star

D

14.4

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

1.8

4star

CL

1.2

4star

. So new players need a chance to acclimatize to the extra pressure. Some do and some don't but you need to give them a good try to find out.

 

[Forensi Tiger]

Agreed. But we’ve been in a position to win every game this season at 3/4 time. Many of those games we’ve been without multiple ‘best-10’ players whether that be : Lynch, Balta, Dusty, Grimes, Prestia, Vlastuin or Lambert.

If Lynch and Balta play v Swans we win easily. I realise every team has injuries, but we just need a little more luck post-bye and I’d be confident we can go on a run …. where it ends who knows.


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I bet there have been a few teams over the years who thought they were closer than they were because of a few close games lost and injuries. It’s hard to figure out what’s real and what’s hope

 

[Mr Magic]

We got to this point in the season with the following players who started the season with under 30 games playing this year:

Gibcus 9
Ross 9
Ralphsmith 6
Aarts 6
Maurice 5
Dow 5
Parker 5
Miller 3
RCD 2
Mansell 2
Nyoun 1

That's 11 'kids' we've put games into on the way to a 6-5 record and nowhere have I said we don't aim to win as many games as possible. As I said it's easy to get caught up in the short term view of we're on the fringe of the 8 with our best 22 all but ready to go post the bye and we could steam into the finals and fluke a flag. However I'm looking at the bigger picture, which a lot of fans are unable to do, I find the best development for these kids is putting them in games like we played on Friday night, like ANZAC Eve, like the upcoming games against Port Carlton & Geelong, like when we played Carlton Collingwood & Essendon where they played in front of 60k+ people and got to experience what that atmosphere was like.

Remember back in those barren years between 1982-2013 there weren't many of those games that our players got to experience, so when they got to play in them we invariably shat the bed and got thumped in those games. Now when we play in those games the side knows what to expect and even when we've got a handful of kids playing in the games we're rarely thumped in fact our last 2 10 goal losses were 2019 against Geelong when we had a fair few injuries and last year which was the beginning of the end of the threepeat dream.

I do not understand why we are not playing more kids?

Has anyone heard of the baby bombers?

I we win a premiership in 2023 will JR and Cotch play on in 2024?

How old was Mundy playing in that fabulous Freo team on the weekend?

 

[Masotiger]

Really torn between loading up with the best 22 and making a charge (short term view) and finding a way to keep blending in younger players like Maurice Ralphsmith Gibcus Ross Dow RCD Miller to continue building for the future(long term view).

It's easy to get caught up with being on the fringe of the top 8 and thinking maybe just maybe if we get all our best players on the park at the same time for a reasonable run of games that we could be a genuine threat for the flag.

On the flip side having the chance to develop the next generation to hold us in good stead moving forward is also quite tempting as it will set us up for sustained success, instead of going the path that sides like Brisbane Essendon Hawthorn did post their dominant eras since the start of the 2000s. Essendon have gone over 15 years since they won a final, Brisbane played finals once between 2004-2019, while Hawthorn have played 1 finals series since the end of the run in 2016. We've experienced the droughts that just go on and on, where the side is never really a threat and I don't want to go back to that having tasted what it's like to be a consistent finals side.

Why does it have to be either/or?

We are not going to get another chance at a flag with these ageing guns. We just need to have them on the park and stay on the park.

At the same time we had a decent draft hand last year and another promising one this year which should set us up well for the future.

Would you seriously want to put games into RCD (btw a spud), Dow, Biggie, Ryan, Cumberland, Miller, etc. ahead of a fit Cotchin, Tarrant, Riewoldt, Grimes, Edwards? Surely not?

We all accept there's likely to be a dip once these guns bow out, but hell, if we can have another flag in 2022, I'm more than happy to watch the development of the team over the ensuing years as a noin-finalist.

 

[Mr Magic]

Why does it have to be either/or?

We are not going to get another chance at a flag with these ageing guns. We just need to have them on the park and stay on the park.

At the same time we had a decent draft hand last year and another promising one this year which should set us up well for the future.

Would you seriously want to put games into RCD (btw a spud), Dow, Biggie, Ryan, Cumberland, Miller, etc. ahead of a fit Cotchin, Tarrant, Riewoldt, Grimes, Edwards? Surely not?

We all accept there's likely to be a dip once these guns bow out, but hell, if we can have another flag in 2022, I'm more than happy to watch the development of the team over the ensuing years as a noin-finalist.

RCD has to be showing more than Ross in Sydney surely

 

[Masotiger]

RCD has to be showing more than Ross in Sydney surely

Unfortunately don't see either as significant members of our team post the likes of Cotchin, Edwards, Prestia. Both limited.