List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[Mr Magic]

I think the club needs to be smart strategically.

If we are striving to win 10 premierships in the next 15 to 20 years, what is the best way to approach such a task?

Gibcus and Clarke obviously enhances this the more development time they receive amongst others

In the old days we would be bringing in players from everywhere and stuff it up putting the cart before the horse

Logically it would be easier to win ten premierships over twenty years than ten premierships in a row because to do the later everyone and his dog or her dog would be against you and doing must things just to defeat you

 

[_RT_]

Are we all at least able to acknowledge the club did the right thing in going to the well one more time with Cotch, Jack etc…. ? We are in this season up to our eyeballs …. and with a bit more luck would be equal top right now.

That doesn’t mean things won’t turn as the season rolls on, but I think it’s time for those calling for us to head to the bottom 4 for draft picks and ‘play the kids’ to admit they’re just a little excited about what we might be able to conjure this season.

FWIW I don’t think we will win the flag, but given clubs can spend decades at a time not even in the finals I’m glad we rolled the dice.

8-5 and looking forward to a huge game against the Cats is a hell of a lot better than 5-8 and already scouting our likely draftees…..

Well done Dimma and the club for giving our club legends one final shot at Premiership glory… they deserved it !!


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Of course I am excited, but it's not because we've given the older guys another shot at a flag, it's more to do with us becoming less reliant on those older guys to put us in that position. Guys like Cotchin Martin Edwards Riewoldt Lambert & Grimes are no longer the reason why we win or are in winning positions, it is the likes of Short Bolton Baker Broad Vlastuin & Daniel who are leading the way, it's kids like Ross Ralphsmith Gibcus Dow & Maurice among others who have come in this year and started to have more influence in games that will hold us in good stead for the years to come that has me excited and if we make the 8 and get finals experience into some of those players that haven't tasted it yet then it becomes an even better season for us regardless of whether we taste premiership success again or not.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Golden State Warriors just won again.

How does this relate to RFC?

Well the dynamics of success are interesting.

In the NBA they have things like luxury taxes and their wages bill is one of the highest to the point other competitors become resentful. This is to the point there is talk they will have to trade out A Wiggins because players like Curry, D Green a K Thompson are seen as legacy club legend pieces of the fabric etc..

Again, how does this relate to RFC? Well apart from equalisation through the draft etc.. too much success breeds resentment from others against you. So the point being for overall success over the journey it would be wise RFC went to the draft for gains simply to mitigate other risks and boost the chances of the most success for the club over the spectrum of opportunities possible given how the forces work. Whether it is losing coaches and whatever else reduces the ability to keep punching at the highest level all the time so winning premierships year after year is unrealistic given the more success you have the more forces you create to go against your interests

So if not rebuild, refreshment with youth is clearly the smarter approach because it allows newcomers to develop and grow and rise while a experienced level of talent exists to teach and capture more success into the future after a interim dip period

It's crazy they have wiseman. Kuminga. Moody. That can't get a game

 

[tiger_tough]

We're 6th on the live ladder.

 

[JR82]

Of course I am excited, but it's not because we've given the older guys another shot at a flag, it's more to do with us becoming less reliant on those older guys to put us in that position. Guys like Cotchin Martin Edwards Riewoldt Lambert & Grimes are no longer the reason why we win or are in winning positions, it is the likes of Short Bolton Baker Broad Vlastuin & Daniel who are leading the way, it's kids like Ross Ralphsmith Gibcus Dow & Maurice among others who have come in this year and started to have more influence in games that will hold us in good stead for the years to come that has me excited and if we make the 8 and get finals experience into some of those players that haven't tasted it yet then it becomes an even better season for us regardless of whether we taste premiership success again or not.

In '19 we had a similar situation & found these guys to be players, we seem to be finding the guys u mention this yr

 

[Marcel Proust]

I'm deeply concerned about the balta injury.

Then again if you can win flags without rance

 

[Mr Magic]

You know, I am still trying to digest the new rules.

The six six and stand seems to have placed a greater emphasis on the midfield.

Melbourne reliant on Oliver, Trac and Viney.

Freo seem to have improved. Not sure how apart from fitness, Brayshaw, Serong, Brodie.

Are Geelong sticking fat because their midfield is not too bad while they can defend and have a forward line and backline?

Maybe we just need a refresh. Maybe we just need to be a little stronger in certain areas and it will make a big difference so refresh might be the go

Are rotations and endurance more important now?

 

[Danw0w]

At the moment I think we just need a refresh. Edwards and Lambert look like they are going to likely retire with Cotchin and Jack not too far off. Hopefully we can trade in Taranto (or Hopper) and trust in our recruiting to find another bargain (easier said than done). We resign Liam Baker

3

Liam Baker

Age

28

Ht

173cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.7

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

7.9

5star

M

3.2

3star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.7

3star

D

14.6

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

7.9

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

3star

CL

0.5

3star

D

14.4

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

8.2

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

1.8

4star

CL

1.2

4star

and Dan Rioli and keep Dusty and our team looks really good, although lacking in a bit of depth. Hopefully our 2021 draftees improve in the off season and other fringe blokes as well. If RCD can have a breakout year, that would be absolutely huge.

 

[Mr Magic]

At the moment I think we just need a refresh. Edwards and Lambert look like they are going to likely retire with Cotchin and Jack not too far off. Hopefully we can trade in Taranto (or Hopper) and trust in our recruiting to find another bargain (easier said than done). We resign Liam Baker and Dan Rioli and keep Dusty and our team looks really good, although lacking in a bit of depth. Hopefully our 2021 draftees improve in the off season and other fringe blokes as well. If RCD can have a breakout year, that would be absolutely huge.

I think premiership assaults for us between 2023-2026 is plausible.

Dusty doing his thing, the youngsters improving, Geelong even if they jag it this year have to hit the cliff in the next couple simple because so many of their players are older.

Lot of teams are fairly even and Melbourne could lose a few to and they are not looking as convincing either.

We have some older guys but I do not think we are as reliant on them as others apart from Dusty who can still be a serious threat forward. JR is still doing his thing. I think it is realistic. Mundy is still going around for Freo FFS, so I think it is not a big stretch at all

 

[_RT_]

We are pretty much exactly where I expected us to be this season. Somewhere in the middle 6 fighting for a spot in the lower part of the 8 where we would be trying to make finals while starting the transition to the next generation. As it stands we've played 13 players who started this season with fewer than 30 games to their names. Those players are: Ross Parker Ralphsmith Mansell Gibcus Dow Rioli RCD Miller Cumberland Clarke Sonsie & Nyoun. Some of them have staked a claim for being part of the next generation, while some of them still have question marks over their futures, we can see that we've truly begun the rebuilding process that will hopefully lead to the next era of success. Nothing is guaranteed in this game and there will be more pain to come as we continue to go through the rebuild, but it's what is going to make the journey to that success enjoyable as we'll get to witness the next generation of stars blossom.

 

[Football Tragic]

We are pretty much exactly where I expected us to be this season. Somewhere in the middle 6 fighting for a spot in the lower part of the 8 where we would be trying to make finals while starting the transition to the next generation. As it stands we've played 13 players who started this season with fewer than 30 games to their names. Those players are: Ross Parker Ralphsmith Mansell Gibcus Dow Rioli RCD Miller Cumberland Clarke Sonsie & Nyoun. Some of them have staked a claim for being part of the next generation, while some of them still have question marks over their futures, we can see that we've truly begun the rebuilding process that will hopefully lead to the next era of success. Nothing is guaranteed in this game and there will be more pain to come as we continue to go through the rebuild, but it's what is going to make the journey to that success enjoyable as we'll get to witness the next generation of stars blossom.

The ironic thing is though, that we really should be much higher up the ladder other than a few minor blemishes of composure from, predominately, those same young players you listed above. So while we are heavily into a 'Refresh' phase, we are relying more and more on the next tier of talent rather than the stars that won us the three flags.

We don't have any other choice other than transition our more experienced star slowly into retirement over the next few years but, we need to keep rotating these younger players through, to both see who has what it takes and to give them the valuable experience at the top level they need.

This year I think we have found another crop of talent this way - Gibcus, Cumberlan, Miller, Ralph-Smith, Clarke and potentially Sonsie. That's a decent year for development in my book when you add Baker, Balta, Bolton, Soldo and Ross from the last few years as well.

The results may be up and down at the moment but the strategy of rotating youth through is working.

 

[JR82]

The ironic thing is though, that we really should be much higher up the ladder other than a few minor blemishes of composure from, predominately, those same young players you listed above. So while we are heavily into a 'Refresh' phase, we are relying more and more on the next tier of talent rather than the stars that won us the three flags.

We don't have any other choice other than transition our more experienced star slowly into retirement over the next few years but, we need to keep rotating these younger players through, to both see who has what it takes and to give them the valuable experience at the top level they need.

This year I think we have found another crop of talent this way - Gibcus, Cumberlan, Miller, Ralph-Smith, Clarke and potentially Sonsie. That's a decent year for development in my book when you add Baker, Balta, Bolton, Soldo and Ross from the last few years as well.

The results may be up and down at the moment but the strategy of rotating youth through is working.

This is the massive positive from the year. Next yr our results may be a bit up/down & have us in a similar position but from the next yr on we should be able to rise again. We did the same thing in mid '19 & those guys were getting pumped then but are now taking over as our snr core, our B&F should reflect this IMO & has been for the last yr or 2 anyway. This new wave beneath the '19 core have been in pretty much every game this yr. This should mean we don't "bottom out" & will pay off sooner than our salty oppo fans would like.

 

[banzai]

This is the massive positive from the year. Next yr our results may be a bit up/down & have us in a similar position but from the next yr on we should be able to rise again. We did the same thing in mid '19 & those guys were getting pumped then but are now taking over as our snr core, our B&F should reflect this IMO & has been for the last yr or 2 anyway. This new wave beneath the '19 core have been in pretty much every game this yr. This should mean we don't "bottom out" & will pay off sooner than our salty oppo fans would like.

We still have areas to fix if you want a strong season from 2024 onwards. By then Prestia and Lynch will be hitting the cooked stage. Our future defence looks good but we need a couple of gun mids and gun forwards asap. Until we can fix our forward line we aren't challenging for anything. We need 2 gun key forwards, if we have to draft them we are realistically 5-6 years away from challenging.

 

[tigerdan]

We are pretty much exactly where I expected us to be this season. Somewhere in the middle 6 fighting for a spot in the lower part of the 8 where we would be trying to make finals while starting the transition to the next generation. As it stands we've played 13 players who started this season with fewer than 30 games to their names. Those players are: Ross Parker Ralphsmith Mansell Gibcus Dow Rioli RCD Miller Cumberland Clarke Sonsie & Nyoun. Some of them have staked a claim for being part of the next generation, while some of them still have question marks over their futures, we can see that we've truly begun the rebuilding process that will hopefully lead to the next era of success. Nothing is guaranteed in this game and there will be more pain to come as we continue to go through the rebuild, but it's what is going to make the journey to that success enjoyable as we'll get to witness the next generation of stars blossom.

I think the lesson from our bad years is that you can't just "play the kids" if they are surrounded by dud players, especially if those dud players never played in successful teams. This is what's stuffing up Essendon.

You either go the top up route and try for a flag or bust, or you transition rookies into the lineup as best you can. The problem with flag or bust is if you don't get that flag you end up with a completely ****ed up list shortly after. The transition route is obviously what we are doing and even though we have glaring problems with key forwards and big bodied midfielders, we're probably nailed our long term backline. Gibcus and Balta are really learning from the best.

The interesting thing will be whether we go the unrestricted free agent route come this trade period. Last year's draft strategy worried me a bit because we didn't address key forwards nor big bodied midfileders (but I think Gibcus was an inspired pick). I don't think the club is stupid and nor do I think they made ad hoc picks. So maybe they do plan to pull another free agent.

I will spew if we finish 9th but we've been bloody stiff this year. Happy with the kids that have been blooded and the only thing that's disappointed me is the continued naming of Aarts.

 

[Mr Magic]

I think the lesson from our bad years is that you can't just "play the kids" if they are surrounded by dud players, especially if those dud players never played in successful teams. This is what's stuffing up Essendon.

You either go the top up route and try for a flag or bust, or you transition rookies into the lineup as best you can. The problem with flag or bust is if you don't get that flag you end up with a completely *ed up list shortly after. The transition route is obviously what we are doing and even though we have glaring problems with key forwards and big bodied midfielders, we're probably nailed our long term backline. Gibcus and Balta are really learning from the best.

The interesting thing will be whether we go the unrestricted free agent route come this trade period. Last year's draft strategy worried me a bit because we didn't address key forwards nor big bodied midfileders (but I think Gibcus was an inspired pick). I don't think the club is stupid and nor do I think they made ad hoc picks. So maybe they do plan to pull another free agent.

I will spew if we finish 9th but we've been bloody stiff this year. Happy with the kids that have been blooded and the only thing that's disappointed me is the continued naming of Aarts.

Would you prefer we finished 10th, 11th, 12th or 13th?

I laugh when I saw, JOH show Naughton this is what a real forward does.

Gotta play the kids, nothing to lose. This concept of winning premiership after premiership is just too hard and unrealistic, have to get the youth in to give yourselves a chance going forward

 

[TigFan1966]

We still have the basis of a great team even if Cotch, Jack, Dusty pull out, the difference between a great team and a mediocre one is just a few players, no need for a complete rebuild. Wouldn't hurt a minor change to our game plan IMO.

 

[juss]

Do a bit of a clean out/ retire this off-season, hit the draft with 3 good picks, then in 3-5 years try and challenge again with

Gibcus Balta Vlastuin
Rioli Miller Stack
Banks Ross Clarke
Rioli Jr Cumberland Bolton
Ryan Baker Short etc

There's gaps especially with talls that we need to draft, and a few big mids, but other than that, that's potentially a good side in another few years with whoever else we pick up.

 

[Mr Magic]

We still have the basis of a great team even if Cotch, Jack, Dusty pull out, the difference between a great team and a mediocre one is just a few players, no need for a complete rebuild. Wouldn't hurt a minor change to our game plan IMO.

Lol, I think many do not appreciate how good a team we will be when our lessor lights like Art, Castagna and Martyn will leave.

We have been anchored down for those not good enough too long. Even Cotch, JR and Dusty might sneak a premiership with more youth and class when the lessor lights leave.

The truth is we have some very average players on our list, other teams do to. We have not had good draft picks for a long time apart from last year

 

[59Stanley]

The lad Mansell can play and seriously play hopefully we get to see him again soon. We have a decent crop of juniors but we need a gun mid or two and a forward

 

[CASEYS9420]

I'm hoping Dusty makes it back for Jack, Edwards & Lamberts last game against the Bummers R23, just get everyone healthy for 1 last game, have Berg to go out on a high note too.

 

[Del65166]

Do a bit of a clean out/ retire this off-season, hit the draft with 3 good picks, then in 3-5 years try and challenge again with

Gibcus Balta Vlastuin
Rioli Miller Stack
Banks Ross Clarke
Rioli Jr Cumberland Bolton
Ryan Baker Short etc

There's gaps especially with talls that we need to draft, and a few big mids, but other than that, that's potentially a good side in another few years with whoever else we pick up.

I see 3 retirements this year and next year.. (Grimes, Cotch, Jack R next year) Big mids like Hobbs or Ward have the body to play straight away, and those type are available every year. Our first pick should get one. Or use cap space to buy a Tarranto this year or Hopper next year. I'd develop Balta/Gibcus/Miller as a KPF 3 /back up ruck in 2023. Soldo/Nank not quite mobile enough I'm not sure Balta has the smarts though. If not Bauer?

 

[juss]

I see 3 retirements this year and next year.. (Grimes, Cotch, Jack R next year) Big mids like Hobbs or Ward have the body to play straight away, and those type are available every year. Our first pick should get one. Or use cap space to buy a Tarranto this year or Hopper next year. I'd develop Balta/Gibcus/Miller as a KPF 3 /back up ruck in 2023. Soldo/Nank not quite mobile enough I'm not sure Balta has the smarts though. If not Bauer?

I'd do something completely outrageous and left field for this club, and draft an actual KPF and play them as a KPF

 

[tigerdan]

Would you prefer we finished 10th, 11th, 12th or 13th?

I laugh when I saw, JOH sure Naughton this is what a real forward does.

Gotta play the kids, nothing to lose. This concept of winning premiership after premiership is just too hard and unrealistic, have to get the youth in to give yourselves a chance going forward

No one remember where any team finishes unless its premiers, runnersup or spoon. So to answer the question, categorically 13th (but i still hope for 8th and then finals).

9th will make us the laughing stock. **** that.

But yeah, some mystifying selections of Aarts and George. Young players do get burned out but shit players don't get better.

 

[DickieKnee]

I see 3 retirements this year and next year.. (Grimes, Cotch, Jack R next year) Big mids like Hobbs or Ward have the body to play straight away, and those type are available every year. Our first pick should get one. Or use cap space to buy a Tarranto this year or Hopper next year. I'd develop Balta/Gibcus/Miller as a KPF 3 /back up ruck in 2023. Soldo/Nank not quite mobile enough I'm not sure Balta has the smarts though. If not Bauer?

Cotchin is an interesting one. He is currently on 281 games played. If he plays all remaining games this year it will leave him with 14 to reach 300 next season, not guaranteed by any stretch with his aging body.

 

[Mr Magic]

I'm hoping Dusty makes it back for Jack, Edwards & Lamberts last game against the Bummers R23, just get everyone healthy for 1 last game, have Berg to go out on a high note too.

JR is not retiring, especially when other spuds are far worse