Opinion Recruiting Inside knowledge works?

[Temploar]

Was just casually having a bit of a think at 4am.

In 2009 we recruited Darren Jolly who was a premiership player as well as Luke Ball who had played in the Grand Final that year.
We won the premiership in 2010.

In 2012 we recruited Quinten Lynch who was a premiership player as well as Clinton Young who had played in the grand final that year.

As well as getting some extra experience, do you think our coaching staff has secretly had an ulterior motive and recruited these two players for an extra bonus reason, and that's to get inside knowledge.

Think about it, Jolly and Ball would have contributed to our 2010 premiership win in more ways than one.
Jolls would have shared his experience on how the Swans won the flag in 2005 and Ball would have shared his inside knowledge on what the Saints did in 2009.

I think we're going to get a decent amount of info out of Q Stick and Clinton as well, and that may well contribute to a 2013 premiership win.

It's a long way away, but just something to think about for now

 

[rustyg70]

Wellingham will also help West Coast though.

 

[Cory]

You'll get more out of Young then you will with Lynch imo, Hawthorn were the second best team all year.

 

[mattys123]

Wellingham will also help West Coast though.

Intelligence isn't Sharrod's strength though.

 

[Hva sher a]

Wellingham will also help West Coast though.

not sure if Dawes will do the same for the Dees.
nor Tommy Young for the Dogs

 

[Cory]

Wellingham will also help West Coast though.

He'll be more busy living the indie life with ash smith.

 

[blaze036]

I don't think u'll get more out of a player than what is already known.

Opponent strategy's are easy to see on the field

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Firstly, from someone who was pretty much asleep as the new year clicked over, let me commend you on your Pie-commitment. Meditating on Collingwood at 4 am is taking it to another level.

It seems like every year teams have to contend with the fact that other sides will be on to their strategies. After 2010 it was like all our assistants were running off to other clubs with their USB sticks containing power points on every aspect of our intellectual property/game plans. The changeover and transition in staff now seems so continual (players and officials) that its almost not worth being precious at the end of every season. It's like Clubs have to virtually re-invent or at least tweak their style every year OR if you are a Geelong, just keep doing what you're doing even better.

Players seem to be leaving for two main reasons:

1. Go home factor: 'I miss Mum and Dad or my besties or my hot girlfriend from back in the hood' (Wellers)
2. Nobody loves me factor: 'I had a bad year made a few stuff ups and suddenly I get bronxed every week, bagged out on footy threads and my place in the team is up for grabs' (Dawes, Young)

Theoretically Wellers could be both of the above: go home factor plus Bucks and Buddy don't love me as much anymore (?)

 

[HappyRed]

I think most strategies are obvious, maybe finding out the rival clubs philosophy's may be an advantage. Finding out how they deal with on-field pressures. Mental stuff. Considering Bucks wants our boys to be "Animals" in 2013. I hope we are really firing up others teams on field, whether its through sledging or constant niggling.

I like sledging. You can't say it doesn't agitate players. Anything to take a player of his perfect game.

 

[Knightmare]

You do go to the players for some knowledge.

We added Young and Lynch specifically because they fit with our current players and add something different as players who will fit into our best 22 without a problem. It's just a bonus they come from good, competitive clubs and that knowledge will without a doubt be utilised as Mick did with Ball and Jolly.

Same will be done with Russell at Carlton, with Carlton a top 8 team this year you'd think. He was taken because he fills a need but again just a bonus that he comes from a club that we have had trouble playing against this year and again might have some insight into specific player tendencies and what players like/dislike.

 

[Swooop]

Good thoughts Tempest, as it turns out these guys come from the powerful clubs and the ones who really trouble us.

Game plans evolve to varying degrees but individual IP on the playing patterns and idiosyncrasies of their ex teammates will be pretty useful I reckon.

Hearing about Carlton's strategies of how they pantsed us last year would be interesting as well.

 

[Smoky]

We recruited Jolly - The best ruckman since Monky.

We recruited Ball - Legend.


Inside knowledge says they are both awesome players...

(Inside knowledge is worth Jack... anyone remember how little impact Carlton had on us after Trent Hotten handed over our playbook.)

Awesome Collingwood Premiership players.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

We recruited Jolly - The best ruckman since Monky.

We recruited Ball - Legend.


Inside knowledge says they are both awesome players...

(Inside knowledge is worth Jack... anyone remember how little impact Carlton had on us after Trent Hotten handed over our playbook.)

Awesome Collingwood Premiership players.

... or how much value Jack Anthony provided Subiaco in dissecting our game plan.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

... or how much value Jack Anthony provided Subiaco in dissecting our game plan.

I think that was one of Jack's problems, dissecting a game plan.
So yeah, nothing to fear there.

 

[Markfs]

There's some theory that called something and I cant be stuffed looking it on the net....but it says that when you're trying to find out why something happens, the simplest reason is usually the one that has the greatest likelihood of fitting...

so we recruited the boys in 2012 because they were available as free agents and they were alike to the players that we traded...

as for Jolly, we got him because he indicated that he wanted to come back to Melbourne and our ruckman at the time was on his last legs and the kid we recruited the year before was just not working out...

as for ball, we got him because he had a fight with his coach and he said he wanted to play with us...so that made him relatively cheap...

as for the 007 stuff and stealing intellectual property etc....well...it sounds sexy...

 

[sd26]

There's some theory that called something and I cant be stuffed looking it on the net....but it says that when you're trying to find out why something happens, the simplest reason is usually the one that has the greatest likelihood of fitting...

Occam's razor - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

[KJpie]

You do go to the players for some knowledge.

We added Young and Lynch specifically because they fit with our current players and add something different as players who will fit into our best 22 without a problem.

Hey KM!

Do you see Lynch playing more at FF or CHF when not in the ruck? My initial thoughts based on team balance is that Lynch is better suited to FF and Cloke CHF, it also separates the rucks more so (that said I accept the roles are not traditional as per days gone by). If that is indeed the case then Lynch a 2012 33 goal FF would play in the position Trav did in 2012 where he kicked 66 goals playing mostly FF as well as occasionally going on long searching leads up the ground.
I guess another option available is for them to swap position's at will? I assume that due to flexibility both players possess, one could play a decoy or blocking role etc when it suits as well as the option available of Jolly resting deep forward whilst Lynch is in the ruck?

On Lynch in the ruck I have posted prior that I was surprised to see that he was shorter (192) than both Maxy and Goldy, that said he is a big unit at 103 kg's. I would have thought his strength as a second ruck was his bulk and to play body on body in ruck contests, now with the new ruck rule that states it is forbidden to make contact prior to the bounce around the ground surely that will advantage the taller 2nd ruck's with exceptional vertical leaps? Based on Jolly taking Center ruck duties approx 75% of the time or more, that will leave Lynch to take a lot of the ruck duties in the forward line as well as at stoppages around the ground ensuring he is exposed to the new rule big time. It will be interesting to see how he and the coaches adapt! Your opinion?

 

[Knightmare]

Hey KM!

Do you see Lynch playing more at FF or CHF when not in the ruck? My initial thoughts based on team balance is that Lynch is better suited to FF and Cloke CHF, it also separates the rucks more so (that said I accept the roles are not traditional as per days gone by). If that is indeed the case then Lynch a 2012 33 goal FF would play in the position Trav did in 2012 where he kicked 66 goals playing mostly FF as well as occasionally going on long searching leads up the ground.
I guess another option available is for them to swap position's at will? I assume that due to flexibility both players possess, one could play a decoy or blocking role etc when it suits as well as the option available of Jolly resting deep forward whilst Lynch is in the ruck?

On Lynch in the ruck I have posted prior that I was surprised to see that he was shorter (192) than both Maxy and Goldy, that said he is a big unit at 103 kg's. I would have thought his strength as a second ruck was his bulk and to play body on body in ruck contests, now with the new ruck rule that states it is forbidden to make contact prior to the bounce around the ground surely that will advantage the taller 2nd ruck's with exceptional vertical leaps? Based on Jolly taking Center ruck duties approx 75% of the time or more, that will leave Lynch to take a lot of the ruck duties in the forward line as well as at stoppages around the ground ensuring he is exposed to the new rule big time. It will be interesting to see how he and the coaches adapt! Your opinion?

It will be interesting to see whether Lynch is more of a FF or CHF. I think it could be a balance of both but because he will be playing those minor ruck minutes I suggest he will be playing a role a touch higher up the ground as Dawes did this year most. In saying that though like Dawes, Lynch is a touch better as a deep forward and Cloke probably better suited playing a role higher so I do feel a balance needs to occur and might help cause some matchup issues.

I don't see Jolly resting up forward, or at least having not really done it much in the past I don't see a drastic change happening here though it might to a minor extent be integrated into his game this year with Lynch a stronger ruckman than Dawes. Jolly's strength is more when he pushes forward of the contest to provide a marking target in the front half so I still see him best suited as a pure ruckman as opposed to a ruckman who rests forward just because his hitout numbers are so good and his taps to advantage so meaningful and important to making the midfield most effective.

Lynch isn't much shorter than Dawes (193cm) or L.Brown also 193cm so it can be done and he has shown it in the past. The key with Lynch is his size, body work and ruck tecnique which are all sound so as a no.2 ruckman he can play that role for those minor minutes and contest which is about all young need in a forward who plays those minor ruck minutes.

It will be interesting to see how the new ruck rules work out. I still see physical size as an advantage through the ruck as you'll still get banged up (so Goldsack/Maxwell still won't suddenly become better no.2 ruck options) but it should favour Nic Naitanui and those super tall ruckmen with that leap or height edge. It may not be so fun/easy for Jolly next season but with the way he mixes up his approaches to the ruck contest even as a mostly grounded ruckman (no leap) he can still be effective as with any other presently strong ruckman.

I think you have the ruck % around right. I'd probably go Jolly a slightly higher % minutes through the ruck and have around 85% ruck minutes with 15% on the bench but I do see the club looking to reduce his ruck minutes so it will more likely than not be closer to 75%.

 

[forwardflanker]

Jolly resting in the forwardline = Lynch having to ruck more which isn't really desirable.

I'd expect Lynch to play similar to the way he did at WC which was as a leading forward who also would play up the field a bit. He isn't that good at wrestler for a guy of his bulk, but he can kick em from outside 50 and he is decent below his knees for a big guy.

On the other hand wrestling is one of the Clokes strengths. the way I see it if we didn't want Cloke playing deep at full forward all year we would have kept Dawes and kept a 2-3 tall forwardline. With a 1-2 tall forwardline we can't afford to play Cloke up the field more like we did a few years ago.

 

[KJpie]

It will be interesting to see whether Lynch is more of a FF or CHF. I think it could be a balance of both but because he will be playing those minor ruck minutes I suggest he will be playing a role a touch higher up the ground as Dawes did this year most. In saying that though like Dawes, Lynch is a touch better as a deep forward and Cloke probably better suited playing a role higher so I do feel a balance needs to occur and might help cause some matchup issues.

I don't see Jolly resting up forward, or at least having not really done it much in the past I don't see a drastic change happening here though it might to a minor extent be integrated into his game this year with Lynch a stronger ruckman than Dawes. Jolly's strength is more when he pushes forward of the contest to provide a marking target in the front half so I still see him best suited as a pure ruckman as opposed to a ruckman who rests forward just because his hitout numbers are so good and his taps to advantage so meaningful and important to making the midfield most effective.

Lynch isn't much shorter than Dawes (193cm) or L.Brown also 193cm so it can be done and he has shown it in the past. The key with Lynch is his size, body work and ruck tecnique which are all sound so as a no.2 ruckman he can play that role for those minor minutes and contest which is about all young need in a forward who plays those minor ruck minutes.

It will be interesting to see how the new ruck rules work out. I still see physical size as an advantage through the ruck as you'll still get banged up (so Goldsack/Maxwell still won't suddenly become better no.2 ruck options) but it should favour Nic Naitanui and those super tall ruckmen with that leap or height edge. It may not be so fun/easy for Jolly next season but with the way he mixes up his approaches to the ruck contest even as a mostly grounded ruckman (no leap) he can still be effective as with any other presently strong ruckman.

I think you have the ruck % around right. I'd probably go Jolly a slightly higher % minutes through the ruck and have around 85% ruck minutes with 15% on the bench but I do see the club looking to reduce his ruck minutes so it will more likely than not be closer to 75%.

Cheers KM,
No inclination to play either Max or Goldy as 2nd ruck's, they were simply mentioned Re: height comparison's with Lynch. Agree Re: Jolly not being rested at FF, I feel those days are just about over. That said whilst Jolly is resting on the bench and Lynch is moved into the ruck our forward setup will be short on marking power and once again extremely reliant on Cloke. With the plethora of key backs available it may be time to experiment with swinging Brown from defense into attack for spells or maybe even Reid to a lesser degree pending defensive match ups?? Hopefully Gault can continue to develop rapidly to provide more competition for that 2nd ruck position and ultimately provide that taller leaping ruckman that may be advantaged by the new ruck rule. He will need to find a KP to call his own though or be able to swing between KP posts.
Their decades apart but Gault reminds me of Graham Moss to a degree.

 

[KJpie]

Jolly resting in the forwardline = Lynch having to ruck more which isn't really desirable.

I'd expect Lynch to play similar to the way he did at WC which was as a leading forward who also would play up the field a bit. He isn't that good at wrestler for a guy of his bulk, but he can kick em from outside 50 and he is decent below his knees for a big guy.

On the other hand wrestling is one of the Clokes strengths. the way I see it if we didn't want Cloke playing deep at full forward all year we would have kept Dawes and kept a 2-3 tall forwardline. With a 1-2 tall forwardline we can't afford to play Cloke up the field more like we did a few years ago.

Agree Re: Jolly best rested on the bench & Lynch being possibly the best fit as the leading FF. Dawes simply at that stage of his career did not have the tank to play in the ruck and then make multiple leads from FF.

I think Cloke though gets to caught up at times and wrestles too much, he then gets incredibly frustrated by the umpires and it tends to affect his game. Hopefully Lynch at FF whilst on the lead from the square will allow Cloke more scope to drop back to the goal square but also do what he does best in my opinion and go on searching leads with his vice like hands.

 

[Knightmare]

Cheers KM,
No inclination to play either Max or Goldy as 2nd ruck's, they were simply mentioned Re: height comparison's with Lynch. Agree Re: Jolly not being rested at FF, I feel those days are just about over. That said whilst Jolly is resting on the bench and Lynch is moved into the ruck our forward setup will be short on marking power and once again extremely reliant on Cloke. With the plethora of key backs available it may be time to experiment with swinging Brown from defense into attack for spells or maybe even Reid to a lesser degree pending defensive match ups?? Hopefully Gault can continue to develop rapidly to provide more competition for that 2nd ruck position and ultimately provide that taller leaping ruckman that may be advantaged by the new ruck rule. He will need to find a KP to call his own though or be able to swing between KP posts.
Their decades apart but Gault reminds me of Graham Moss to a degree.

I don't think our forwardline will be too short, or at least lacking enough talls. We have the marking smalls but even when Lynch moves into the ruck we still have Cloke then likely one, perhaps two of Paine/Goldsack/Macaffer depending on form which is still plenty of height in that front half. For me it's all about really getting those best 22 players in and looking to integrate them in a way that can work. Goldsack depite not being a key forward really looked very reasonable as a target when Dawes shifting into the ruck then Paine has a real presence to him and Caff also particularly in his junior days and in his first couple of seasons was a real marking forward to I don't see that as a huge issue.

I'm probably ok with that whole key defence group. I see our tall group as being:
Ruck: Jolly (1s), Witts (2s), Hudson (2s)
Key forward (including ruck/fwd types): Cloke (1s), Lynch (1s), Paine (2s), Grundy (2s), Gault (2s), Richmond (2s), Eddy (VFL but quality and should play most games).
Key defence: Reid (1s), Brown (1s), Keeffe (2s), Frost (2s), Hartley (2s)

Keeffe I suspect coming off injury will have a slow start to the season so I'd be keeping that key defence group as is. I'm expecting Keeffe to again become a regular post Maxwell with Reid to shift into that role allowing the 3 key defenders to fit into the one team. Frost may surprise and I see where you are coming from in saying one of the key defenders could shift forward and with his athleticism he might make things interesting, but with more than enough key forwards with those rotational rucks then Eddy also at VFL level and the key forward stocks are also plentiful with Paine, Grundy and Gault all acceptable depth options as key forwards.
The other factor with those key defenders is that they are just so much better suited behind the ball. Reid is an All Australian key defender and a poor forward. Keeffe early season was just incredible down back playing some very impressive roles on some high profile key forwards yet as a key forward while he can play a role just isn't nearly as effective with Brown much the same and again better suited as a key defender. The difference between their play as key forwards and defenders is just so large that it's just not worth moving them forward even to accomodate eachother in the team. Additionally I'd rate all of Cloke/Lynch/Paine/Grundy and Gault as superior to all of Reid/Keeffe/Brown as forwards.

Gault I think can continue his development. He is that late bloomer and add his coachability and work ethic and if given another year he can really become something wherever we want him to develop. While it's probably wrong to describe that no.2 ruck position as being that Leigh Brown role I think Gault is best suited to playing that very same role L.Brown previously played in those minor ruck minutes then as a versatile forward who can not only present as a marking target but also play higher up the field but for different reasons with his ability to find the footy and use it well for a player of his size. I'm probably against the grain but I see Gault as that no.2 ruckman behind Grundy long term with Witts probably the depth guy but it could work out any number of ways and with Darcy Moore hoping coming in, through the 2014 draft maybe the long term landscape changes again and needs to be re-evaluated. But as you mentioned Gault is capable both forward and back so he is that ultimate swingman who can be whoever you want him to be which is never such a bad thing to have in reserve or perhaps even integrated into the team and able to cover injuries as requred in game.

I'm not old enough to have seen Moss but I see Gault's game as something similar to a Jordan Roughead or a Shaun McKernan if a slightly more skilled version who can find more of the ball more up the field with a better tackling game.

 

[Knightmare]

Agree Re: Jolly best rested on the bench & Lynch being possibly the best fit as the leading FF. Dawes simply at that stage of his career did not have the tank to play in the ruck and then make multiple leads from FF.

I think Cloke though gets to caught up at times and wrestles too much, he then gets incredibly frustrated by the umpires and it tends to affect his game. Hopefully Lynch at FF whilst on the lead from the square will allow Cloke more scope to drop back to the goal square but also do what he does best in my opinion and go on searching leads with his vice like hands.

This is a very good call. With Cloke this year much of the time he was just too stagnant. In a matchup v say Hawthorn for example he'll be caught wrestling with Brian Lake who has the strength to break even and then when Cloke looks threatening a Gibson can cut in as the 3rd man to get a spoil as required.
Glass at West Coast can do the same. Rutten at Adelaide and so on.

Cloke while I don't like his ability to find targets up the field by foot when he goes on the longer leads, I don't like him playing full forward because he just doesn't move his man around enough and work him over as he has always been able to do then gets caught in wresting matches where a 3rd man can always come in and get the stop which happened too much in 2012. Additionally I feel he is more threatening pushing into the forward half where the opposition doesn't have that same time to set up on him which is generally why I like Cloke more at CHF and playing that role higher up the field. It just makes us that bit more dangerous and makes Cloke more productive.

 

[Temploar]

Turns out my theory was a failure.

The free agency 'bargains' we got didn't turn out so well this year.
Lynch has provided nothing for us and Young was out injured most of the year.

I still hold hopes for Young to have an impact next year but Lynch is done for.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Lynch has just been ok... Reid has been a better forward than Dawes and we got a decent pick in return. Young has been an abject failure but he may prove not to be a complete waste. With another preseason into Seedsman, if we get Thomas back fit next year, I don't even see Young getting a game.

So yeah, free agency hasn't been great for us so far.