Redo the 2004 Draft

[Sedat!]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Griffen has played in 5 finals and has been his team's best player in 3 of them (of which 2 were victories). Only Buddy has a comparable record at the business end of the season. The cream rises in September.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Cloke should be Top 5 in every single list, without doubt - He's won a Best and Fairest and "Best Finals Player" in a side that went to prelim.

Other than Buddy and Roughead, nobody on the list has acheived that much, and I'd argue he's ahead of Roughy - Let Cloke play next to Buddy Franklin and he'd kick that many goals too.

Vinnie I think you've got a good point there. Amazing how low some people have him.

So you think it's unfair that, on what we've seen, Tambling isn't considered a "very good player"?

Your bias never ceases to amaze me.


That's just a rubbish argument. This is a 21yr genuine KPP, a power forward, who just kicked 75 goals playing at CHF in the premiership team. This done whilst, even by your own admission, at least probably 70% of forward entries were being directed through Buddy. You're prepared to talk up Tambling on the back of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING..."is a very good player"..."developing into an A-Grader":...yet a player like Roughy, who given his size and style of play could be forgiven for taking years to fully develop, you're at pains to talk down?

Try and show me another player who, with all things considered (age, position, 'type' of player, achievements-to-date etc), could've shown more promise and more reason for optimism.

Go on, try.

Try.

The posts you quoted were from several months ago, so take that into account.

Looking back I do believe I let my bias get the better of me. I know Roughead is a promising player who has runs on the board - I do think he has had an easy ride though which only means it's hard to find his true measure.

He could have kicked 70 goals in a poor team this year, but he happened to be in the top team with arguably the best player in the comp by his side. You can only work with what you've got, and he performed to a high standard.

I stand by the "Franklin Factor" making life easy for Roughead. But in hindsight I do regret the intensity I argued it, and in the heat of the battle my bias crept up with the Tambling talk too. I think when I see other people undervalue him so much it makes me want to overvalue him so when they look at it, they might go "okay maybe he's somewhere in between..."

My top-20*

1. Franklin
2. Roughead
3. Deledio
4. Lewis
5. Cloke
6. Griffen

Even you have your bias.

Honestly, with your brain taking charge, would you not trade Lewis for Griffen?

Roughead over Deledio is also against popular opinion and in favour of your club.

Tambling not in your top 20?

You either did that as a shot at me or you will change your opinion when you see more of him next year

But I do believe Roughead has had it easy, and Tambling still gets undervalued because of Buddy. To what extent, well, the answer to that question really depends on who you barrack for

 

[__aria__]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Hm lets have a look.

1. Franklin
2. Deledio
3. Roughead
4. Cloke
5. Van Berlo
6. Griffen
7. Lewis
8. Smith
9. Egan
10. Pratt
11. Williams
12. Prismall
13. Rosa
14. Knights
15. Monfries
16. LeCras
17. Taylor
18. Bate
19. Tambling
20. Moore

 

[Macca19]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Not that I find these threads in any way productive, but I would have thought a Rising Star winning, top 10 brownlow finishing midfielder whos averaged 18.5 disposals a game through his career named Danyle Pearce would have maybe been mentioned at least once in this thread.

 

[__aria__]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

you're right I would definitely have him ahead of a lot especially Tambling but I didn't put him in because I think we are only doing the players that went in the ND

 

[OneEyedHawk]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

The posts you quoted were from several months ago, so take that into account.

15th September. Only 2 matches have been played since that post.

Looking back I do believe I let my bias get the better of me. I know Roughead is a promising player who has runs on the board - I do think he has had an easy ride though which only means it's hard to find his true measure.

He could have kicked 70 goals in a poor team this year, but he happened to be in the top team with arguably the best player in the comp by his side. You can only work with what you've got, and he performed to a high standard.

I stand by the "Franklin Factor" making life easy for Roughead. But in hindsight I do regret the intensity I argued it, and in the heat of the battle my bias crept up with the Tambling talk too. I think when I see other people undervalue him so much it makes me want to overvalue him so when they look at it, they might go "okay maybe he's somewhere in between..."

Is one of those things that you could argue either way. Being 2nd target and attracting the 2nd best backman vs getting far fewer forward entries directed through you.

As you say though, you can only judge someone on what they've done, and he was terrific this year.

Oh, and he kicked 75, not 70 goals.

Even you have your bias.

Honestly, with your brain taking charge, would you not trade Lewis for Griffen?

I wouldn't, no, then again he's one of my very favourite players. Tough as anything, and uses the ball beautifully. I can definitely see why others would take Griffen first, he does has massive upside, but at this stage I wouldn't swap. I can see how that would be construed as bias though.

Roughead over Deledio is also against popular opinion and in favour of your club.

Lids would be welcome any time at Hawthorn, but I value the big blokes pretty highly, and there wouldn't be many players I'd trade for Roughy. I wouldn't hesistate for a second to take him at number 2.

Wouldn't surprise me if he ends up a more valuable player than Buddy.

Tambling not in your top 20?

You either did that as a shot at me or you will change your opinion when you see more of him next year

Probably a bit of both.

I don't think, on exposed form, he's done much to warrant being very far up that list...maybe could've snuck in at 18-20.

That's not to say he won't be a good player, i think he will, but just hasn't shown it yet.

But I do believe Roughead has had it easy, and Tambling still gets undervalued because of Buddy. To what extent, well, the answer to that question really depends on who you barrack for

I'm afraid you better get used to it, as unfair as it is, we also put up with it for years with Hodge/Judd. Even more unfairly though IMO, as Hodge had had a fairly solid start to his career. Eventually, if/when he consistently starts delivering, like Hodge did, then he'll be acknowledged for being the player he is, regardless of where he went in the draft.

 

[markr]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

I really rate Cloke, but it's hard to argue that he didn't have an average year, while others around him continued their improvement. Yes he was injured, but when you're rating him against very good players that is going to drop him a little. In the same way that Judd is no longer considered the best player in the competition, even though everybody recognizes that he may get back there next season.

 

[iGNITER]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

I would probably take gun KPP players before mids.

1. Franklin (obvious reasons)
2. Roughead (VERY good player - can play both forward and back)
3. Cloke (good contested mark very important player at collingwood - i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the draft.......... except for buddy lol)
4. Deledio (best mid from the draft)
5. Griffen (very good player will be special - love how he breaks the lines with dash)
6. Egan (underrated defender - easily in geelongs 22)
7. Lewis (tough mid who can rack up possies and uses the ball well)
8. Van Berlo (can run all day and is in adelaides top few mids)
9. Williams (will develop into a very good kpp player IMO can play at either end but will be mainly used as a defender)

 

[Sedat!]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

I would probably take gun KPP players before mids.

1. Franklin (obvious reasons)
2. Roughead (VERY good player - can play both forward and back)
3. Cloke (good contested mark very important player at collingwood - i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the draft.......... except for buddy lol)
4. Deledio (best mid from the draft)
5. Griffen (very good player will be special - love how he breaks the lines with dash)
6. Egan (underrated defender - easily in geelongs 22)
7. Lewis (tough mid who can rack up possies and uses the ball well)
8. Van Berlo (can run all day and is in adelaides top few mids)
9. Williams (will develop into a very good kpp player IMO can play at either end but will be mainly used as a defender)

Simply hasn't made it onto the park enough to warrant such a high position. Less than 20 game career to date and whilst he has shown great promise in those handful of games, Dogs fans would just love to see him on the park for an extended period.

 

[budge11]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

I would probably take gun KPP players before mids.

1. Franklin (obvious reasons)
2. Roughead (VERY good player - can play both forward and back)
3. Cloke (good contested mark very important player at collingwood - i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the draft.......... except for buddy lol)
4. Deledio (best mid from the draft)
5. Griffen (very good player will be special - love how he breaks the lines with dash)
6. Egan (underrated defender - easily in geelongs 22)
7. Lewis (tough mid who can rack up possies and uses the ball well)
8. Van Berlo (can run all day and is in adelaides top few mids)
9. Williams (will develop into a very good kpp player IMO can play at either end but will be mainly used as a defender)

I agree with pretty much all of that but my order would be:
1. Franklin
2. Roughead
3. Deledio
4. Griffin
5. Egan
6. Cloke
7. Lewis
8. Van Berlo
9. Pratt
10. Williams

 

[Little Jerry]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

I would probably take gun KPP players before mids.

1. Franklin (obvious reasons)
2. Roughead (VERY good player - can play both forward and back)
3. Cloke (good contested mark very important player at collingwood - i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the draft.......... except for buddy lol)
4. Deledio (best mid from the draft)
5. Griffen (very good player will be special - love how he breaks the lines with dash)
6. Egan (underrated defender - easily in geelongs 22)
7. Lewis (tough mid who can rack up possies and uses the ball well)
8. Van Berlo (can run all day and is in adelaides top few mids)
9. Williams (will develop into a very good kpp player IMO can play at either end but will be mainly used as a defender)

He is not underrated. Its just that his bad run with injuries would bring his worth down

 

[nugget_12]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

If it's not limited to the ND then surely Will Thurstfield would get a gig in the top 20.

He was pick 1 in the 04 rookie draft and is probably our best or second best defender and well rated by quite a lot on BF

 

[Colin Grigson]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

16?? Where's the love for Bate????

Finished 3rd in our BF last year, had an ordinary year this year, but he's still better value than a few of the blokes you've listed in front of him!!!

Some of them, i.e. Williams & Smith can't even get out on the park! & Prismall hasn't done an awful lot either...

 

[__aria__]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

yeah big question marks over jess smith
needs to play round 1 or there are big worries

 

[comrade]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

I believe a player from my team should be higher than a player from your team.

 

[TigerGlory]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Griffen is rated far to low in most of these lists.

Should be top 3 with Deledio and Franklin easily.

After that, its all guesswork. Roughead and Cloke would round out the Top 5 in my opinion.

 

[Ablettttttt!]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

16?? Where's the love for Bate????

Finished 3rd in our BF last year, had an ordinary year this year, but he's still better value than a few of the blokes you've listed in front of him!!!

Some of them, i.e. Williams & Smith can't even get out on the park! & Prismall hasn't done an awful lot either...

thats melbourne though

 

[cs61]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

How I think it would go in the open draft

1. Franklin
2. Roughead
3. Deledio
4. Griffen
5. Lewis.
6. Cloke
7. Egan
8. Van Berlo
9. Clinton Young (rookie selection that should be taken into account)
10. Pratt

I personally think Lewis could be higher than Griffen, but only because I see him all the time and realise how good he is. I think he is probably quite a bit under-rated, whilst still aware of me being perhaps quite a bit biased.

 

[Colin Grigson]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

thats melbourne though

"ughhh"..

what's that gurgling sound?? sounds like someone's choking...

i'd better go and check it out

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Do Hawk fans realise they are the only ones putting Roughead over Deledio or Lewis over Griffen/Cloke

Seems to be common trend.

They bag others for being biased then put Hawk players higher than anyone else would have them.

 

[mdc]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Do Hawk fans realise they are the only ones putting Roughead over Deledio or Lewis over Griffen/Cloke

Seems to be common trend.

They bag others for being biased then put Hawk players higher than anyone else would have them.

Roughead is probably the most underrated player in the AFL.

Can play in any KP spot, kicked 70 goals without being the primary target, and even when not getting much of the ball he provides a presence. Would take him over Deledio every time.

As for Lewis vs. Griffen, Lewis is the better player atm. It's just Griffen has more upside.

 

[djs_23]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Roughead is probably the most underrated player in the AFL.

Can play in any KP spot, kicked 70 goals without being the primary target, and even when not getting much of the ball he provides a presence. Would take him over Deledio every time.

Well said sir. You're dead right. FWIW we Hawks rate him very highly.

 

[OneEyedHawk]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

Do Hawk fans realise they are the only ones putting Roughead over Deledio or Lewis over Griffen/Cloke

Seems to be common trend.

They bag others for being biased then put Hawk players higher than anyone else would have them.

Please don't ever, ever accuse anyone else of bias.

At any rate, here's just a sample of some neutral supporters from this thread. Surprising really, is so out of character for you to be so selective/biased...

1. Lance Franklin
2. Jarryd Roughead
3. Brett Deledio
4. Ryan Griffen
5. Jordan Lewis

here's how i would have it
2-4 are pretty even

1. Lance Franklin
2. Ryan Griffen
3. Jarryd Roughead
4. Brett Deledio
5. Travis Cloke
6. Nathan Van Berlo
7. Jordan Lewis
8. Chris Knights
9. Matthew Egan
10. Daniel Pratt
11. Ivan Maric
12. Brent Prismall
13. Richard Tambling
14. Jesse W. Smith
15. Angus Monfries
16. Matthew Bate
17. Sean Rusling
18. Tom Williams
19. Mitch Morton
20. Brad Moran

Roughead kicked 70 goals this year.

Wouldn't be many other drafts that had guys who kicked this many, and they weren't No. 1. However Buddy kicked over 100.

You could argue that Roughy would've kicked 100 if he wasn't in the same team as Franklin.

I think in hindsight, Franklin & Roughead would be 1 & 2. I'd be happy to have Roughead over Griffen. KPPs who kick that many goals aren't easy to come by.

The Hawks may have drafted a flag or two that year.

I would probably take gun KPP players before mids.

1. Franklin (obvious reasons)
2. Roughead (VERY good player - can play both forward and back)
3. Cloke (good contested mark very important player at collingwood - i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the draft.......... except for buddy lol)
4. Deledio (best mid from the draft)
5. Griffen (very good player will be special - love how he breaks the lines with dash)
6. Egan (underrated defender - easily in geelongs 22)
7. Lewis (tough mid who can rack up possies and uses the ball well)
8. Van Berlo (can run all day and is in adelaides top few mids)
9. Williams (will develop into a very good kpp player IMO can play at either end but will be mainly used as a defender)

I agree with pretty much all of that but my order would be:
1. Franklin
2. Roughead
3. Deledio
4. Griffin
5. Egan
6. Cloke
7. Lewis
8. Van Berlo
9. Pratt
10. Williams

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

So out of 9 pages you found about 3-4 non-Hawks who put Roughead over Deledio

Lewis over Griffen is the more obvious error though and that's coming from an impartial point of view this time.

Btw I freely admit that being a Tiger supporter I'm comprimised in 2004 trade talk.

But I was 100% right - popular opinion places Deledio over Roughead.

9 pages of lists in this thread is proof.

 

[OneEyedHawk]

Re: 2004 Draft Re-Done

So out of 9 pages you found about 3-4 non-Hawks who put Roughead over Deledio

Lewis over Griffen is the more obvious error though and that's coming from an impartial point of view this time.

Btw I freely admit that being a Tiger supporter I'm comprimised in 2004 trade talk.

But I was 100% right - popular opinion places Deledio over Roughead.

9 pages of lists in this thread is proof.

WTF are you on about?

You didn't say "popular opinion places Deledio over Roughead". In your typically overstated, biased way, you said that Hawk fans were the only ones rating the Hawks player highest. That's a fair backflip to now say you were 100% right as "popular opinion" has Deledio over Roughead.

Not unexpected though I guess.

Do Hawk fans realise they are the only ones putting Roughead over Deledio or Lewis over Griffen/Cloke