Discussion Retooling for next year

[Falchoon]

What do we need to go a step further?

Backline; If maxy goes on, Dempster and Maguire come back the backline would seem fine, leave as is.

Centre; We need at least 2 extra options, Harvey is gone and hopefully Armitage goes to the next level, but Armitage, Hayes and Ball are essentially all the same player, where is the line breaker, I don't know if Dal Santo is that player. Kerr would be extremely handy, but Cousins would be injury prone. realistically a Kerr trade had to include Dal Santo, do it.

Rucks; Ok

Forwards; Our first option is good, and kosi is a decent third option but where is our second option? There will be nothing available in the draft so surely it has to be Goddard. Play Riewoldt closer to goal and Goddard at CHF, he's 191cm and 95kg which is identical to Pavlich, not quite as mobile but with better skills, he can mark and kick and fix a glaring hole. Particularly if Maguire is back.

What we do need, one at either end is some mongrel, Hamill style. Watching the Hawks fans boo Hayes last night was disgusting for brushing into Hodge, if the shoe was on the other foot Hodge would have buried Hayes, we need the opposition to hear footsteps. It's fine to bring in a Fiora, Birss, Geary, McQualter, Eddie, Gardiner etc as the rotating 18th - 24th best players but they're all the same, we need a mongrel big body or 2, it's a massive weakness of ours that a Chance Bateman can hassle Dal Santo all night and not get flattened at least 3 times.

 

[Signd Sealed Saint]

True, our players do not protect each other. Especially our good ball users who aren't exactly tough nuts, you watch if Gary Ablett doesn't get the protection he does and cops as much as Dal every week he won't be the "tough" player that everyone thinks he is. Quite a few players need to put on some weight in the preseason, last night it was boys v men. Which is disappointing since some of our senior players couldn't handle the physicality of Hawthorn.

I disagree with the backline, we need a KPB, Max will retire next year, he was going to retire this year and go into property (G-train is doing this with him from what i hear) but i reckon he'll play on since he should've been AA instead of Tom "I'm only AA coz i play for Geelong" Harley, who does shitall apart from being third man up. I think we got 14 or somewhere around that mark so we should be able to get a reasonable young backmen, give him some game time because someone's sure to go down with injury

We need a decent second option that can take a grab on the lead which Kosi can't do due to his workrate, but if he's willing to pull his finger out and do some work, he will turn into a great forward. But this seems very unlikely atm, so i think maybe give some game time to Macca and see how he goes. He can ruck a bit too since King will be older next year and needs to be used more sparingly. That way we can always have two talls in the foward line presenting. Hopefully Jarryd Allen can get more games as well, he'll develop into something eventually.

Our midfield is of concern tho, we need more quality in there to play finals next year. Steven looks to be a ripper but he needs time, Armo will step up next year, he'll give us that mongrel but needs time in the gym. Luke Miles could get a game or two next year, he's killing the VFL, looks a good prospect, I'd keep him on the rookie list and see how he goes. Don't know why Howard got a new contract, he's looked all at sea at AFL level but the club obviously sees something in him. We have linebreakers in Gram, Dal and BJ to a certain extent but that depends on how Maguire, Dempster and Baker goes. BJ is probably not going to play for the first month or so tho due to his punch to Mitchell so we'll have to see how our team is working then to assess.

Some players need to go

Princess Fiona: Do I need to explain?
McQualter: Tags himself out of the game but does nothing else
Gardiner: Tries hard but isn't AFL standard
Rix: Same as above
Van Rheen: Not gonna get a game
Chivers: Same as above
Ferguson: Might get a game but don't see him having any impact
Harvs: Retiring after a magnificant career
G-Train: Retiring as well

We'll need to pick up a fair few players but i don't think those guys above are up to it. Birss is in question also since Lyon obviously doesn't like him, but i think he deserves a game and certainly before Fiona.

 

[Defacto]

i couldnt agree more with the comments so far.

i think theres too much left to too few and unfortunately it shows when we get a few injuries or when some players have a rough night. easy for teams to shut us down.

i think raph clarke has saved his career this year and is coming along nicely like jones is... both very promising players.

xavier needs some good time in the VFL next year to harden up.

trade fiora he's useless. birs is a bit slow but i think he's a good second tier player to give us some depth. some of the young kids are a worry. not too sure on charlie gardiner.

michael gardiner is going to be great value when he's not injured hopefully we have him for another couple of years.

i think we need to fast track the development of some players. it'd be great to see gwilt play like he did during the adel prelim in 05. eddy showed some good glimpses and mcqualter last week against collingwood wasnt bad. but lets face it we need these guys at a senior level now and not at a development level. they really should be establishing themselves like jones and raph. theyve got one more year imo.

montagna needs to improve (had an ordinary year). we missed baker this year. ball is someone we need back. but i agree we really need a quick midfielder to break the lines.

i agree with chucking goddard at CHF. keep kosi in the ruck and running around the ground, if he cant ruck then get rid of him. king is doing great so were right there (in the ruck dept).

schneider and milney are great. reiwolt needs more support from another big forward and better delivery. frustrating player lately through.

backline will be fine when goose gets back. need to start looking for a replacement for maxxy.

we just need to get more depth. bloody frustrating to see teams like hawthorn and geelong surpass us after so much promise.

i dont think kerr is the answer. dal santo has one more year to prove him self. time to apply the pressure on him.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

It appears that we may expect some significant changes.

Saints coach Ross Lyon labelled the performance as embarrassing and said the team's shortfalls will not be ignored.

"We certainly didn't bring any honour to each individual or our fans or our club tonight, so it won't be swept under the carpet," he said.

"We've got to add talent, we've got to add systems, we've got to add work ethic.

"We're in the business of getting better and we've got to bridge the gap clearly.

"All year there 's been a gap to the top three. We thought we'd bridged it closer than what we delivered tonight.

"We'll keep working and anyone who doesn't work or isn't mentally strong we'll weed out and we'll improve everything at the club."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/21/2370031.htm?section=sport

Has Lyon seen enough from players like Dal Santo, Koschitzke, Armitage and Fiora ?

There were quite a few with bad games last night. But there were different reactions - both from such players and their teammates. Gilbert had a shocker and was clearly beaten by Williams. It happens. But Gilbert cared, he was clearly not happy with himself (I had the impression he was close to tears at times) and at least kept running and trying. Both Hudghton and Fisher went over to encourage him a few times during the match. I haven't seen similar reactions from or shown towards some of the other under-performers.

On the other hand, we have a player with undoubted mental strength and countless best on ground performances for Casey (and solid performances for St Kilda when picked) who, again, could not get a game. I can only assume that Lyon sees a certain lack of speed and / or talent that prevents him from playing Birss. Well, I would disagree on this and would not be surprised if Lyon, deep inside, regrets having largely ignored Birss throughout the season (and this is not meant to say that Birss will solve or would have solved all our problems).

Lyon has learned a lot and has grown in standing (he is right in saying that a prelim is nothing to be proud of, but it will have silenced many of his critics). He obviously has the support of the board (even had it during the difficult early rounds this year) and may now take some tough decisions to further form the club according to his views.

Next year will be start of a new post Robert Harvey era anyway - I would not be surprised to see a few other substantial changes, too, not only for the playing group, but also in other areas of the club. I don't know about you, but I have a good feeling about next year (but then again, I have always been a glass half full type person...).

 

[Signd Sealed Saint]

I'm actually genuinely excited about next year. Something i haven't been able to say too often. Can't wait to see Armitage, McEvoy and Steven develop/starting to develop and no more duds like Fiora. I doubt we'll repeat the prelim performance but it's an exciting time for St Kilda fans right now

 

[holllywood]

Am excited bout next year.

Expect McEvoy to develop along nicely but still 3-4 years till i think he will be able to stamp his authority on matches (hopefully wrong though)

cannot wait for Steven! may put a cheeky on him for NAB rising star.

 

[dan0z]

I keep hearing everyone saying that we need to find a replacement for max.. imo that is exactly what st kilda are doing with sam gilbert.
I think some of you guys are selling him short, this is only his second year and he had an injury setback earlier this year..
I see a lot in this kid, i know he may have been touched up last night but he tried his guts out and i can only see him improving..

I think our defence has now become one of our strengths with r clarke, s fisher, max, gilbert all in great touch.. with dempster and goose still to return next year.

We have one of the best forwards around in reiwoldt, he has taken another step the last couple of weeks.. great marking and great kicking, very good to watch.. needs some help though with kosi not standing up..

midfield is the worry.. was beaten hands down last night..
we will be a bit better with a fit luke ball but it still needs some more flare.
expext rossco to have a chat to cuz, kerr, and andy lovitt later this week..

Retire: Rob harvey, g train

delistings: charlie gardiner, Leigh fisher

On the edge: andy mcqualter, aaron fiora

Posible trade: Kosi

 

[beejay]

we need another tall forward when kozi goes missing we struggle big time n roo cant do both go deep and lead up. i think our backline is now stronger then our forward line which is a change. we still need that pace in the midfield because we get shown up everytime we play a quick team. i think we are really banking on mcevoy developing into that gun kozi type role player where he can dominate ruck and forward and so when kingy retires him n kozi in tandem would be a brilliant combo.

 

[GLORY_GLORY]

we need a kpp bad fullback or fwd dont care get me one...

 

[GLORY_GLORY]

do people think harry taylor would have been as good with us as he was with geelong this year... hmmm this deserves a thread but cant make one i am new...

 

[Squizz]

Every time Sam F and BJ get near the forward line (nowhere near enough) they show they are natural forwards. Both are ripper kicks, which we lack up forward. We need to bolster the speed in the midfield to reduce reliance on Ball & Hayes (now that Harvs won't be there to help out) and find a key backman that (1) releases these guys into the forward line and (2) provides cover for Goose and Max.

 

[The Punter]

The points about Gilbert are well made. He kept at it on Saturday night, and in the second half was probably in our best five or six. But he got smashed in the first half.

For those who want to trade Kosi, I ask, what could we get for him?

Firstly, let's look at those ruckmen who are better than Kosi on this year's performance.

Cox, Sandliands, Petrie, Hale, Hille, Hudson, Ottens, Charman. That's eight guys.

No one at Adelaide, Carlton, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Richmond or Sydney was better than he was this year. Kosi's year was probably on a par with Simmonds or Fraser, but that's about it. And he can kick a goal.

If we trade Kosi, we won't get value back for him. He's overrated, and therefore everyone thinks if he's not performing to that standard, then we should trade him. It's a little the same with Dal Santo, but watch him poll 10 Brownlow votes tonight (he'll get two BOGs v Rich and v Haw. plus the odd vote here and there).

Here is what the Round 1 2009 side should look like IMO (keeping in mind that Goddard will miss at least this game and Dempster is injured):

B Geary Hudghton Gilbert
HB Gram S Fisher R Clarke
C Jones Dal Santo Montagna
HF X Clarke Riewoldt Maguire
F Milne Koschitzke Schneider
Foll King Hayes Ball
Int Baker Armitage Blake Steven
Em McEvoy Eddy Birss

I think Goddard plays primarily in the middle next year. He'd probably come in to that side for Baker.

 

[Squizz]

Whilst Kosi's got 10 times the heart of Simmonds and Fraser, I'd have them (exchange) in a heartbeat.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

The points about Gilbert are well made. He kept at it on Saturday night, and in the second half was probably in our best five or six. But he got smashed in the first half.

For those who want to trade Kosi, I ask, what could we get for him?

Firstly, let's look at those ruckmen who are better than Kosi on this year's performance.

Cox, Sandliands, Petrie, Hale, Hille, Hudson, Ottens, Charman. That's eight guys.

No one at Adelaide, Carlton, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Richmond or Sydney was better than he was this year. Kosi's year was probably on a par with Simmonds or Fraser, but that's about it. And he can kick a goal.

If we trade Kosi, we won't get value back for him. He's overrated, and therefore everyone thinks if he's not performing to that standard, then we should trade him. It's a little the same with Dal Santo, but watch him poll 10 Brownlow votes tonight (he'll get two BOGs v Rich and v Haw. plus the odd vote here and there).

Here is what the Round 1 2009 side should look like IMO (keeping in mind that Goddard will miss at least this game and Dempster is injured):

B Geary Hudghton Gilbert
HB Gram S Fisher R Clarke
C Jones Dal Santo Montagna
HF X Clarke Riewoldt Maguire
F Milne Koschitzke Schneider
Foll King Hayes Ball
Int Baker Armitage Blake Steven
Em McEvoy Eddy Birss

I think Goddard plays primarily in the middle next year. He'd probably come in to that side for Baker.

I agree with most things you've said Punter...except the fact that to close the gap on the top 2 we need add more midfield depth (with more pace).
It was clearly evident in the 2 finals we lost that we just don't have the mids capable of running out games at full pace.

Look at our runners:

1). Montagna - awesome
2). Dal Santo - seems content to cruise around. hurts weaker teams
3). Hayes - inside, hard nut
4). Ball - inside Hard Nut
5). Gram - been good all year. Had a bad night on saturday
6). Goddard - more a utility than a runner. Hasn't got the tank to go 4 qtrs
7). Eddy - tagger, found it tough chasing Mitchell
8). McQualter - tagger, doesn't get any of his own ball
9). Jones - tagger/utility. been a real positive this year
10) Fish - Again, more of a utility
11) X - injury prone. teetering on the edge i'm afraid.
12) Raph - Utility
13) Schneider - front-runner.Good at what he does
14) Fiona - Lamentable. Shirks contests, wont put head over the ball
15) Armitage - looks the goods. needs more time to build his engine.

Not a real lot there to write home about, compared to:

a) Abblett, Corey, Ling, Bartel, Kelly, Wojinski, Selwood, Mackie, Chapman, Enright, Varcoe etc

b) Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Crawf, Bateman, Osbourne, Hodge, Rioli, Brown, Young etc

That is the difference between the 2 teams.

Imagine Rooey being fed by those 2 midfields!!

 

[Defacto]

you're exactly right the problem is we have wayyy to many utilities than actual midfielders.

 

[The Punter]

Half Back Pocket - about six of those guys you have named for both Geelong and Hawthorn are midfielders. The rest are just guys who can pinch hit there for a little while.

For me, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Montagna & Armitage are midfielders, and should play there. If Goddard doesn't have the tank now, I'd suggest he start running right away.

The ball-winning midfielders tend to go earlier in the draft, and considering we are probably a ruckman and a key position defender short, they'll be our first two draft picks unless our plan is to take a late-round flyer on Alex Silvagni. I get the feeling this year if we draft a midfielder, he'll be more Brad Howard than David Armitage.

I think our midfield problems lie with not being able to use Dal Santo, Montagna & Gram effectively. Look at how Hawthorn used Clinton Young on Saturday night - 18 first half possessions, none contested. They got the ball out to him, and if Ball, Hayes, Goddard & Armitage can get the ball out to the afore mentioned three outside players consistently, then we'll be a long way to becoming a Grand Final team.

We're a marking forward short, and almost all of our poor performances in the second half of the year (bar Geelong) have been when Riewoldt and Kosi have been our only real 190cm+ marking targets. I like the idea of Maguire forward. He can take a grab, knows how to impose defensive pressure, and he's a long, accurate kick.

Backline would look better if Dempster was fit, but should be fine anyway. Raph Clarke was our player of the finals series, and Gilbert will learn from 3 finals as well. Max and Sam Fisher superb, but ideally you would like to have Dempster along with maybe a Gram or Geary there long term.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I keep hearing everyone saying that we need to find a replacement for max.. imo that is exactly what st kilda are doing with sam gilbert.
I think some of you guys are selling him short, this is only his second year and he had an injury setback earlier this year..
I see a lot in this kid, i know he may have been touched up last night but he tried his guts out and i can only see him improving..

I think our defence has now become one of our strengths with r clarke, s fisher, max, gilbert all in great touch.. with dempster and goose still to return next year.

We have one of the best forwards around in reiwoldt, he has taken another step the last couple of weeks.. great marking and great kicking, very good to watch.. needs some help though with kosi not standing up..

midfield is the worry.. was beaten hands down last night..
we will be a bit better with a fit luke ball but it still needs some more flare.
expext rossco to have a chat to cuz, kerr, and andy lovitt later this week..

Retire: Rob harvey, g train

delistings: charlie gardiner, Leigh fisher

On the edge: andy mcqualter, aaron fiora

Posible trade: Kosi

Dead right about Gilbert. You can't just buy a can with a Max Hudgeton in it , and IMO full backs are one of the longest developing positions.

Dempster may be out for a while, but Attard should be back next year, and he was doing OK 2007.
Everyone talks about the improvement of McQualter made after being de-listed last year. IMO he has improved from being inadequate to barely adequate. The more barely adequeate players we have on the team the more the whole team will be barely adequate.

The thing is the draft picks are not for next year ( unless we are really lucky or really desperate ) and we have midfielders from previous picks in the pipeline. So I think it is true that we should look for KPP for forwards or backs.

It would be good to develop the kind of forward line/strategy the dogs have , rather than our old , " kick it to the tall guy" strategy.

 

[Sir Robert]

Mods can we have this thread and the Gone one combined?

I agree Gilbert is our future FB. End of story. Unfortunately Maguire's goal kicking is shizen so he's stuck back IMO.
Goddard or S Fisher (Maguire back hopefully) forward would be ideal. Especially Fish, as Goddard resting forward will allow us better delivery when he's in the guts and he will be an asset when dropping back to help out.

 

[borderbarry]

A number of our highly regarded players go missing in the tough games - Dal Santo, Montagna, Gram. We need players to stand up in those games. For mine, the club should go all out to get a high draft pick and get a young mid who will play well next year. We should bite the bullet and get rid of the players who will not help us win a Premiership.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm thinking that Dal and Kosi are not our worst players but at the same time the expectations may be too high.
Dal for forward pocket. Kosi rucking midfielder.

 

[ChrisFooty]

A number of our highly regarded players go missing in the tough games - Dal Santo, Montagna, Gram. We need players to stand up in those games. For mine, the club should go all out to get a high draft pick and get a young mid who will play well next year. We should bite the bullet and get rid of the players who will not help us win a Premiership.

No that simple. We would not get really high draft picks for players such as kosi and Montagna. Better to keep them.

 

[Persevering Saint]

For whatever reason, Beeg won't go down to the forward line, despite the fact that he clearly should. His dream has been to be a midfielder, and he's realising that dream now, so. The problem is, as great as he is, he's not going to solve the problems we need to solve in the midfield - he's not the type of player to do that.

If he WAS in the forward line, he'd be actually solving the problem we have there. Simply put, we need a semi-tall,strong, goal-kicking forward with good defensive/mongrel capabilities. We need a new Hamill. Goodard can kick straight, and VERY long.

He would be a perfect running half-forward while Roo is at FF. When Kosi gets tired of running around as a ruck-rover, shove him at FF, get Roo running around, and have Beeg again as true half-forward. Occassionally, have ALL THREE in the forward line, and stretch the living daylights out of the tall defenders. Then when points are scored and kick-ins are taken, watch as Goddard orchestrates turnover after turnover. Defensive players would fear/loath having to play on Goddard - they would know they would be sore by the end of the night.

 

[beejay]

unfortunately i think we need a botu 3 goddards! 1 for defence, 1 for midfield and 1 for forward line. i think with our defensive stocks finally strengthening a bit with dempster and raph and gilbo i think bjs best possie is rotating through midfield and forward line because its clear as day as when kozis not in the forward line we struggle cos roo gets double teamed and we have no other height or potency in marking targets and end up kicking to milne 1 on 1!

 

[Squizz]

We have trouble with other teams who have guys who can kick from outside 50m with set shots.

Yet we have one of these guys and don't use it - got me gobsmacked and has all year for those who have been listening to old man Squizz.

He is smart enough to float back to help out when required, and hurt on the rebound. Conceded some goals this year via free kicks and trying to create, so for mine he should never have been played in defence.

We delisted Wall who was a 197cm defender, which I never agreed with. We have failed to try Rix in the role at Casey which I also think was a blight on the decision-making. We _ucked up in the way we brought Goose back - don't listen to the players, look at the scans!!!

We have tried Gwilt and Fiora back there when it is not their gig. Bloody hell, we even threw Dal back there thinking somehow it would help him. Ditto Fergie. Even Woody has been tried as a backman without success.

Can't we just hang onto the ones we had or pick one up? Would hope Miles will be retained but not holding my breath.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

unfortunately i think we need a botu 3 goddards! 1 for defence, 1 for midfield and 1 for forward line. i think with our defensive stocks finally strengthening a bit with dempster and raph and gilbo i think bjs best possie is rotating through midfield and forward line because its clear as day as when kozis not in the forward line we struggle cos roo gets double teamed and we have no other height or potency in marking targets and end up kicking to milne 1 on 1!

Look at the Doggies: No key forwards, marking presence...they just move the ball quicker through the midfield.

The Cats are the same: multiple goals through - Stevie J, Chappy, Stokes, Varcoe, Bartel, Ablett etc - all of them are shrimps.

It all comes back to the speed of the ball moving through the midfield into the forward line.

We have the best athlete (equal with Buddy) playing the game, who is unstoppable on his day. We just gotta give him better opportunities.

If the mids (RUNNERS is probably a better term for them!) don't want to bust their gut running both ways, then we will never bridge the gap to Geelong/Hawthorn