Richmond 2012

[zeeCFC]

Hi Zee: not setting you up just so others can bash your answer: but serious question - where do you think Carlton will win the match on this line up of teams? From a Carlton point of view, where;s your strengths and weaknesses on this match-up?

Round 1 looks like having our fittest and strongest defence in years, Henderson has been the pick of the crop over the summer. He's probably the guy we need most to take it up another level.

Our midfield will be much of the same except for the addition of Kane Lucas on the wing and a fit and firing Kreuzer. Robinson also looks bigger and his steady improvement over the years should continue. Lucas' inclusion means Scotland will be floating around doing as he pleases and we should also see Kade Simpson on a wing of his own, conserving much more energy. Last time Lucas and Simpson played together, Simmo got 40+ possessions.

Up forward we'll be dangerous as usual, not going to make predictions on Hampson at FF as I haven't seen enough to make a proper statement on.

The win for us will come from our midfield at least breaking even and us being good enough up forward against your attack which hasn't quite had enough time together to become a good unit.

Finally I just can't imagine how you could turn around the result of round 15 2011.


My opinion on your positives for 2012:

- Cotchin will be Ablett like soon. My favourite player after Bartel outside of the Blues.

- Martin will support Cotch very well and will be good enough to at times take the tag off Cotch like Murph does with Judd.

- Deledio gives you that third elite and reminds me of Gibbs in that we both hope our guys will translate form on the flanks into the midfield.

- Vickery and Jack are a great pair of KPFs.

Improvements needed IMO:

- Tall defenders are weak.

- Ruck division even with the Mullet is still poor.

- Better small forwards needed (love Nahas though)


So yeah, good luck for 2012. Don't think you'll beat us, but who knows! I sincerely hope you smash the Demons and North though.

 

[santa claws]

I'm not discounting the fact that they're potentially already on our list, but I think we still need improvement from Rance and that third tall (Grimes currently the obvious option) as well as a quality CHB you refer to (again, potentially Post).

If we jagged ourself a gun CHB but saw no improvement from the other two, I think we're still a little way off having a truly solid back 6.

And the fact that some mock rd1 teams are listing Morris playing on Garlett or worse still, Betts, worries me. It highlights that we're still a small, quick defender light on. Again, Morris (or another on our list already) may be the answer. I just think for rd 1 a first gamer playing on a tricky goal sneak like that is a bit of a concern...

some real good posting #80. Not far removed from what i think in the main.
can i ask a question what option do we have other than morris to play a shut down role on garlett and betts.
yep it is a concern that we are forced to play a first gamer on one of them but a positive is that 1st gamer is 23.

the only defensive players we have are morris dea batchelor some would say newman. white king jackson are also defensive players but for obvious reasons these blokes cant play back on those types.
yep we dont really have an option but play morris and see what he can do.

your views on list management/recruiting are spot on. there is people still there who have had 5 to 7 yrs and yet we are forced to trade for ruckmen, kpds, rookie experienced players like miller because of a dearth of senior forwards, chase 23 yr old nedium sized defenders, look for a big fb, we still dont have a high quality sml forward, and we only have two decent kpfs one of whom was taken as a ruckman.
this all over the last 5 or 6 yrs.
yep list management has been ordinary to say the least and the main culprit is still there and few question his worth.

our head of recruiting has similar knocks about him.
not saying these blokes arent an improvement on what we have had before them, just saying i think we need to improve again.

the irony is our supporters every yr talk as though we have achieved something and refuse to even entertain the idea that perhaps we havent achieved anything because we havent done well in critical areas.

if we got it right the proof will be in the pudding. cameron and jackson imo have had ample time to show therir worth in probably the two most critical areas of any club and still the questions keep coming about exactly what they have achieved and done well.

 

[Damo80]

can i ask a question what option do we have other than morris to play a shut down role on garlett and betts.
yep it is a concern that we are forced to play a first gamer on one of them but a positive is that 1st gamer is 23.

He may well be the best option, and therein lies my concern... that a 23 year old recruit taken out of the SANFL system, playing game #1 is our answer to shut Eddie Betts.

He may do well - he may be our (shorter) version of Duigan and be a great success story stepping up seamlessly into the big league... I still see it as one of the indicators we've got a way to go, which is the context of my "concern".

In terms of overall list management, I'm possibly a little more forgiving (and to be honest, would appear to give it a fair bit less thought overall than others, such as yourself do!), but my overall thought is we're moving in the right direction, slowly. My one key concern is that our lack of ruck, and kpd options are nothing particularly new, yet we seem to keep recruiting guys who are small/medium half back flank types more than anything else.

I mentioned it in the Ellis/Morris thread, but around a quarter of our list would seem to be primarily suited to, or have been regularly played in this role. Seems like an imbalance to me.

 

[Damo80]

So yeah, good luck for 2012. Don't think you'll beat us, but who knows! I sincerely hope you smash the Demons and North though.

Hard to argue with your thoughts... although I think labelling the ruck division with the inclusion of Maric as "poor" is a touch harsh. Replace that with "average" and I'd probably agree!

I hope we play out of our skins and knock you off, but have to agree, you should still have the edge on us (and continue to do so for another season or two in all likelihood).

I honestly think Carlton are a good example for us Tigers supporters to look at. There is a lot of optimistic Tiger talk that next year we make the 8, the following year we're pushing top 6 (if not top 4), then we're flag threats from there-out. Would be nice, but if you look at the example of the Blues, it's probably going to be a slower, more gradual process.

Cheers!

 

[Rustof]

Going by games played in 2011. This would be our best 22.

2011


FB 	Newman		Rance		McGaune

HB	Deledio		Batchelor	Houli

C	Edwards		Cotchin		Grigg

HF	King		Miller		Martin	

FF	Nahas		Riewoldt	Vickery

FOLL	Graham		Foley		Jackson

I/C	Conca		Tuck		White

SUB	Helbig

Here's what I'd like to see with a few adjustments for new players and position changes.

2012

FB 	Morris/Dea	Rance		Grimes

HB	Ellis		McGaune/Post	Houli

C	Deledio		Cotchin		Newman

HF	King/A.Maric	Miller		Martin	

FF	Nahas		Riewoldt	Vickery

FOLL	I.Maric		Foley		Jackson

I/C	Conca		Tuck/Grigg	Batchelor

SUB	Arnot/Webberley/Elton/Edwards

For defence...


Hopefully Post shows some improvement during the NAB cup to warrant a selection. A Rance-like 2011 would be very nice to make CHB his home.

Morris and Dea. Can only afford to have 1 in our side IMO. Shutdown mid defender with average disposal. Morris would be bit faster, Dea a bit bigger.


Midfield...


With guys like Deledio, Newman, Batchelor and Conca spending more time in the middle, it's hard to find a spot for Edwards and Grigg. Neither Grigg or Edwards can really go down back and they aren't that dangerous up forward.

I guess Grigg would be fighting for a spot against Tuck or Jackson.
Where as Edwards would be in competition with Conca, Batch ad Newman.

Deledio is the obvious upgrade on both so he gets to stay in there regardless.

If Newman and Batchelor aren't able to perform/last through the middle then possibly Ellis and Houli could get a few rotations through the middle.


As for the forward...


King and A.Maric are two I'm not too sure on. On one hand you have King who you know will bust his gut and run both ways, constantly providing pressure... On the other you have Maric who'll use his footy smarts to crumb packs and use his very good foot skills to hit team mates or the scoreboard. If Maric can show a good defensive side to his game during the NAB cup I'd probably have him ahead.

All the other spots in our forward seem just about set. If Derickx, Griffiths or Elton seem to be smashing it in the VFL then they could possibly take the position of Miller but as it stands he's still our 3rd best tall forward.

Regarding the sub...


Would be nice to see Arnot possibly come on late in the 3rd. Lay some big tackles, rattle a few of the opposition mids. Could be a good impact player until he gains the tank for a full match.

Elton as well, probably not able to play a full game, certainly not big enough. If brought in towards the end of a game where the defenders are a bit tired, he could gain some AFL experience without the full intensity.

Webberley/Edwards would be there if we wanted someone able to run out a full game in case we suffered an injury early on.

 

[delediofan3]

By the way things are going we are very much in contention for a finals spot, with the Pies going down, this could be our chance.
Even when they've got Pendlebury and Daisy Thomas in the side along with Shaw, Swan (probably wasn't his best night, hasn't had a good one yet) they couldn't beat the Dees.

 

[Goldust]

Going by games played in 2011. This would be our best 22.

2011


FB 	Newman		Rance		McGaune

HB	Deledio		Batchelor	Houli

C	Edwards		Cotchin		Grigg

HF	King		Miller		Martin	

FF	Nahas		Riewoldt	Vickery

FOLL	Graham		Foley		Jackson

I/C	Conca		Tuck		White

SUB	Helbig

Here's what I'd like to see with a few adjustments for new players and position changes.

2012

FB 	Morris/Dea	Rance		Grimes

HB	Ellis		McGaune/Post	Houli

C	Deledio		Cotchin		Newman

HF	King/A.Maric	Miller		Martin	

FF	Nahas		Riewoldt	Vickery

FOLL	I.Maric		Foley		Jackson

I/C	Conca		Tuck/Grigg	Batchelor

SUB	Arnot/Webberley/Elton/Edwards

For defence...


Hopefully Post shows some improvement during the NAB cup to warrant a selection. A Rance-like 2011 would be very nice to make CHB his home.

Morris and Dea. Can only afford to have 1 in our side IMO. Shutdown mid defender with average disposal. Morris would be bit faster, Dea a bit bigger.


Midfield...


With guys like Deledio, Newman, Batchelor and Conca spending more time in the middle, it's hard to find a spot for Edwards and Grigg. Neither Grigg or Edwards can really go down back and they aren't that dangerous up forward.

I guess Grigg would be fighting for a spot against Tuck or Jackson.
Where as Edwards would be in competition with Conca, Batch ad Newman.

Deledio is the obvious upgrade on both so he gets to stay in there regardless.

If Newman and Batchelor aren't able to perform/last through the middle then possibly Ellis and Houli could get a few rotations through the middle.


As for the forward...


King and A.Maric are two I'm not too sure on. On one hand you have King who you know will bust his gut and run both ways, constantly providing pressure... On the other you have Maric who'll use his footy smarts to crumb packs and use his very good foot skills to hit team mates or the scoreboard. If Maric can show a good defensive side to his game during the NAB cup I'd probably have him ahead.

All the other spots in our forward seem just about set. If Derickx, Griffiths or Elton seem to be smashing it in the VFL then they could possibly take the position of Miller but as it stands he's still our 3rd best tall forward.

Regarding the sub...


Would be nice to see Arnot possibly come on late in the 3rd. Lay some big tackles, rattle a few of the opposition mids. Could be a good impact player until he gains the tank for a full match.

Elton as well, probably not able to play a full game, certainly not big enough. If brought in towards the end of a game where the defenders are a bit tired, he could gain some AFL experience without the full intensity.

Webberley/Edwards would be there if we wanted someone able to run out a full game in case we suffered an injury early on.

WOULDN'T surprise me to see Webberly as an almost exclusive sub player! His fresh legs and run late in the game is the way we seem to be going!

 

[partycorolla]

By the way things are going we are very much in contention for a finals spot, with the Pies going down, this could be our chance.
Even when they've got Pendlebury and Daisy Thomas in the side along with Shaw, Swan (probably wasn't his best night, hasn't had a good one yet) they couldn't beat the Dees.

Settle down. It's round 2 of the NAB cup. I wouldn't read too much into glorified praccy matches. We have an incredibly tough draw early and we should be hoping that the boys are competitive during the early rounds against some of the power teams of the comp. Melb and WCE are must win games IMO and they are far from certainties.

Also the pies took pretty much everyone off at half time other than Pendles and left Daisy in the F50. I read nothing into the result at all, other than Melb are going to be more competitive (physically) under Neeld than they were under Bailey.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Yes Melbourne will be interesting this year and possibly the next...

All those draft picks plus the new Coaches and recruiting staff..

Would'nt be suprised they have hocked their silver ware to finance their last throw of the dice here for success/Stynes...very interesting...

 

[TigerTime88]

I think i read above that Morris is faster than Dea?! Correct me if I am wrong but I am fairly sure Dea ran a 2.89 for a 20m and the coaching staffs one concern with morris during pre season was whether he had enough leg speed. Got that from a source inside the club. Would think Dea is comfortably quicker, however I would like to see him play a decent game of footy before Dea gets anywhere near best 22. He hasn't produced anything like what Morris produced all year in the SANFL.

Would like to see both of them played on ballantyne at stages tonight to see how they go against one of the comps best small forwards.

My best 22 would be:

Newman Rance Grimes

Houli Post Ellis/Morris/or Dea

Deledio Cotchin Conca

Martin Miller Nahas

Maric Riewoldt Vickery

Maric Tuck Foley

King, Batchelor, Jackson SUB: Grigg/Webberley

 

[santa claws]

a big part of the debate about 2012 has been age and games played.
i keep on asking myself where is the quality in our leadership group.
purely from an age perspective heres a list of those who should be at the forefront of our season.
i broke it down to 3 categories which made up just over 50% of our list.

28+ - king, newman, tuck, miller, moore lti, one could argue we would not miss most of these players if they went tommorrow. they all have their critics and imo only newman has been decent consistently and tuck brings something we dont have but need.

25 - 27yo. - foley, jackson, mcguane, i maric. sheesh just one of proven decent quality and hes had lots of injury and not been at his best for a few yr.

incrdible isnt it we have just 9 players aged 25 or more and only two of them come with no real baggage or knocks.

22 - 24yo - nahas, edwards, webberley, white, connors, graham, grigg all reek of mediocrity. it leaves houli whos had one decent yr, rance who has his critics, post whos done nothing to date, morris and derickx whos are mature recruits and done zilch to date, that leaves just two of real quality in deledio and riewoldt.
14 players in this group and so many potential failures.

23 players make up the 22 and over list. the trouble so few good consistent thru to high quality players on the list.so many inconsistent nd unproven players needing to step up.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Whats your point here Santa...that the Tigers are crap?!?1...or are improving...

 

[santa claws]

Whats your point here Santa...that the Tigers are crap?!?1...or are improving...

well ive never said we were any good.

the real point is when you look at the age and experience structure of the list and then look at the quality thats spread thru it as well. finals really should not happen this yr.

we are heavily reliant on kids under 22 and who have mostly played few games.
apart from a few, the real quality though unproven in a lot of cases, is in our early development categories.

just going thru other sides to see where we are at at the same stage. ie geelong 2004 haw 2007 stkilda 2004 carlton 09 the yrs they made finals after rebuilds.

it just seems to me we are 12 months behind where these sides were at when they made finals, looking at quality, spread of talent, age, experience, structure etc.

just trying to get people to think more about these things rather than placing high expectations on a list that most indicators says is not finals ready yet.

one area most do not want to know about is mature recruits. more and more it seems we desperately need to target mature players for critical roles. sheesh just 9 players aged 25 or older and most of those could go at seasons end says we have to address this at some stage and soon.

 

[Ferdinand Lewis]

one key concern is that our lack of ruck

1. Maric
2. Derickx
3. Browne
4. Graham
5. Elton
6. Post.
7. Vickery/Griffiths

We may not have 'good' ruckman but at least we have potential decent young players on the list for this postion. Better than in recent years having many poor 25-28 year old players.

, and kpd options are nothing particularly new

If we are going to play 3 key back talls
#1 Rance
#2 Grimes
#3 Post

That leaves Astbury as our first choice KDP @ Coburg. McGaune is an average player but is not bad as a 5th choice option. All are young players who are not yet in the prime of. You could even make a case for MCGaune.

Once again we dont have Pavlich or Scarlett FB/CHB but the list is in a stronger postion than past in this area. PivaWright and BenDarrou both 18 yoa not far off 100kg. Moore is the darkhorse and could be our #1 defender is he gets fit..

I would assume Griffiths, Elton, OHanlon will be used forward.

we are heavily reliant on kids under 22 and who have mostly played few games.

This is what rebuilding via the draft is about.

 

[theflea]

well ive never said we were any good.

the real point is when you look at the age and experience structure of the list and then look at the quality thats spread thru it as well. finals really should not happen this yr.

we are heavily reliant on kids under 22 and who have mostly played few games.
apart from a few, the real quality though unproven in a lot of cases, is in our early development categories.

just going thru other sides to see where we are at at the same stage. ie geelong 2004 haw 2007 stkilda 2004 carlton 09 the yrs they made finals after rebuilds.

it just seems to me we are 12 months behind where these sides were at when they made finals, looking at quality, spread of talent, age, experience, structure etc.

just trying to get people to think more about these things rather than placing high expectations on a list that most indicators says is not finals ready yet.

one area most do not want to know about is mature recruits. more and more it seems we desperately need to target mature players for critical roles. sheesh just 9 players aged 25 or older and most of those could go at seasons end says we have to address this at some stage and soon.

i for 1 dont see us in the finals this year. about 10th is about right but if we do make it its probably a year or 2 early. we are relying on our 24 and unders but if it works they are all of the same age to come thru together. i dont know about the mature players as yet but i do remember you wanted us to go for tim mhor but from what ive seen he not much chop. that may change just my 1st impressions.

 

[TigerTime88]

We just really need to nail our first 3 picks which will be inside 40 in this next draft.

Some more silky HFF/Mid types and also a KPD with our first pick.

 

[Danog]

B: Grimes Rance Newman
HB: Houli Post Batchelor
C: Conca Martin Deledio
HF: Nahas Miller Foley
F: Maric Riewoldt Vickery
Foll: Maric Cotchin Jackson
Int: Tuck Grigg Edwards Sub: Ellis

 

[Rayzorwire]

I read nothing into the result at all, other than Melb are going to be more competitive (physically) under Neeld than they were under Bailey.

I'd be very surprised if they don't really start going somewhere under Neeld, we already know he's got an amazing football brain and by all accounts, he's a great communicator and a very hard taskmaster.

 

[richcogs]

B: Grimes Rance Newman
HB: Houli Post Batchelor
C: Conca Martin Deledio
HF: Nahas Miller Foley
F: Maric Riewoldt Vickery
Foll: Maric Cotchin Jackson
Int: Tuck Grigg Edwards Sub: Ellis

That team is spot on!

 

[Woefully Inept]

Coburg had a practice match on Saturday, 4 Richmond boys played

Graham and Browne dominated the ruck, but once the ball was on the ground in the wet conditions, it was tough for them
Griffiths played 3 quarters, mainly at CHB, didn't really get involved at all
Darrou played in defence, didn't have a lot of huge moments, but looked alright

 

[santa claws]

i for 1 dont see us in the finals this year. about 10th is about right but if we do make it its probably a year or 2 early. we are relying on our 24 and unders but if it works they are all of the same age to come thru together. i dont know about the mature players as yet but i do remember you wanted us to go for tim mhor but from what ive seen he not much chop. that may change just my 1st impressions.

tim mohr, wilkes, warnock, austin, tom lee, there were lots. the point is we need to go down that path weather they work out or not. we are talking picks we usually pass on in the nd or a psd pick or even rookie list them.any two of the above would help enormously with depth and or experience in defense.

im still shaking my head at the state of the backline. its not something that has happened over night. its been an on going concern for many yrs. yet we had an opportunity to at the least build some depth and backup for what is a very young unproven inexperienced defence.
to top that off, having acknowledged the problem and then failed to trade for a big defender we couldnt even take a promising tall defender in the nd knowing the situation of the defense. this is a lack of list management and vision.

 

[nathanchelsea]

houli/rance/newman
grimes/post/batchelor

deledio/cotchin/foley
maric/martin/jackson

edwards/riewoldt/maric
nahas/vickery/derickx

conca/ellis/grigg sub:morris

Sub will most likely rotate through players like edwards, maric, morris, ellis.

Pretty solid team looking for round 1 actually think we can knock off Carlton they seem to be playing pretty bad and look like injuries are hitting them a little Judd under prepared.

Few players were hard to choose Tuck could eaisly come in but I just dont think he fits with the quality that is already there in the midfield, also newman and batchelor may see some midfield time this year espically batchelor.

Look to rotate midfielders through the foward line for rests (Martin, Cotchin, Jackson even a bit of Deledio???) Only area that may arise is our defense vs big fowards for carlton wont be much of a issue but players like Franklin, Cloke etc may cause huge problems.

 

[Ferdinand Lewis]

B: Grimes Rance Newman
HB: Houli Post Batchelor
C: Conca Martin Deledio
HF: Nahas Miller Foley
F: Maric Riewoldt Vickery
Foll: Maric Cotchin Jackson
Int: Tuck Grigg Edwards Sub: Ellis

my only issue with this is Miller.

would rather Derickx/Griffiths.

Ellis is very stiff to miss the 21.

 

[theflea]

tim mohr, wilkes, warnock, austin, tom lee, there were lots. the point is we need to go down that path weather they work out or not. we are talking picks we usually pass on in the nd or a psd pick or even rookie list them.any two of the above would help enormously with depth and or experience in defense.

im still shaking my head at the state of the backline. its not something that has happened over night. its been an on going concern for many yrs. yet we had an opportunity to at the least build some depth and backup for what is a very young unproven inexperienced defence.
to top that off, having acknowledged the problem and then failed to trade for a big defender we couldnt even take a promising tall defender in the nd knowing the situation of the defense. this is a lack of list management and vision.

i understand your pov and agree it would be good but we need to pick the right 1. mhor and was pre listed by gws,wilkes is rubbish. warnock i could live with but i get your argument and i agree with as long as we get it right. the only thing we can guess is the club didnt think there was 1 good enough.i do agree we have lacked the forsight in drafting defenders.also im sure we asked about players in the trade period but there wasnt any 1's on offer that were any good. im all for trading for a defender as long as they are good enough.unfortunately there is just not that many big defenders around.

 

[Goldust]

B: Grimes Rance Newman
HB: Houli Post Batchelor
C: Conca Martin Deledio
HF: Nahas Miller Foley
F: Maric Riewoldt Vickery
Foll: Maric Cotchin Jackson
Int: Tuck Grigg Edwards Sub: Ellis

That's likely what we'll see round one!