Richmond 2012

[The Chiefton]

A fit connors is in the best 25 but overall good effort

I agree, but only and I mean ONLY when he applies himself like he did when he got the arse for 5 or 6 weeks in 2010. Was a real weapon for a period there, but with blokes like Deledio, Newman, Houli, possibly Batchelor and Edwards... I can't see him getting a regular gig until form warrants selection or heaven forbid, injury.
Hope he can make it though because he's too much of a talent to be languishing in the VFL.

 

[jihg]

Why do people want to draft players to then play them in different positions I can't recall the last time we made that work. It's amazing that we have a guy who won the Coleman as a ff and a runner up in the same position and people want to to move him ludicrous.

 

[The Cotch]

This would be my round one team assuming we pick up Maric and McCarthy....



FB: Morris Grimes Rance

HB: Batchelor Astbury Newman

C: Deledio Cotchin Houli

HF: Riewoldt Griffiths Edwards

FF: Nahas Vickery Maric

R: Maric Foley Martin

INT: Conca, Grigg, Jackson, McCarthy

 

[lesrythmes]

We're REALLY in trouble if we're assuming 2 delistees that aren't even guaranteed a rookie spot yet are starting round 1!

 

[The Cotch]

Why? They both fill a list need, they're both mature, and they're both ready to play. Do you want to win round one or not?

Hardwick said the development stage is over, so if we recruit these guys, they're recruited to play.

 

[lesrythmes]

Highly doubt that. If they're recruited as rookies the whole point is to develop them towards being AFL standard, or delist if they don't come along as hoped. Few players in that position get games instantly.

If Maric only got 21 games in 3 seasons for a team who were embarrassing that entire time, then got delisted, what suggests he's ready to walk into our 22 straight after?

 

[santa claws]

I agree with you, but do you agree that for the first time in years it is impossible to pick our best 22????

i think the best 22 is easy to pick.when you only really have 25 to pick from and many of those below standard.placing them in position is a bit harder though
im still forced to select what i would kindly term ordinary players in the top 22.
its easy to give unproven kids a game as they have better attributes and less weaknesses.

 

[Morro]

i think the best 22 is easy to pick.when you only really have 25 to pick from and many of those below standard.placing them in position is a bit harder though
im still forced to select what i would kindly term ordinary players in the top 22.
its easy to give unproven kids a game as they have better attributes and less weaknesses.

I actually think your whole post confirms my thought as opposed to debating it and the highlighted section actually makes no sense to me. For a start, how do you know if they have less weaknesses until they actually prove what they are capable of?

With so many on our list in the "unproven" category, a best 22 is more open to debate than ever.

 

[_RT_]

Updated side based on the new direction we're heading i.e. winning over development:

B: Dylan Grimes 20 193cm 87kg 8 games Alex Rance 22 194cm 93kg 44 games Chris Newman 29 183cm 82kg 192 games

HB: Bachar Houli 23 180cm 82kg 48 games Jayden Post 21 195cm 93kg 22 games Jake Batchelor 19 188cm 78kg 16 games

C: Daniel Connors 23 186cm 84kg 27 games Dustin Martin 20 187cm 86kg 43 games Reece Conca 19 185cm 78kg 17 games

HF: Trent Cotchin 21 185cm 83kg 61 games Tyrone Vickery 21 200cm 95kg 45 games Shaun Grigg 23 190cm 84kg 64 games

F: Brad Helbig 19 185cm 77kg 10 games Jack Riewoldt 23 195cm 93kg 90 games Ben Griffiths 20 198cm 99kg 9 games

R: Ivan Maric 25 200cm 102kg 77 games Brett Deledio 24 188cm 88 kg 150 games Nathan Foley 26 178cm 80kg 110 games

I/C: Matt Dea 20 186cm 84kg 7 games Steven Morris 22 185cm 84kg 0 games Shane Edwards 23 182cm 78kg 89 games

SUB: Pick 15 or 26

EMG: David Astbury 20 195cm 92kg 22 games Robin Nahas 23 176cm 70kg 55 games Pick 15 or 26

Backs: I have given Post first crack at CHB in what is a make or break year for him. Rance and Grimes make up the other 2 talls down back. Houli and Batchelor maintain their HBF spots where both showed some pretty good form last year. Newman is the general down back who primary role is to sweep up and set up the rebound from D50. With Dea and Morris on the bench there is also the ability to push Newman or Houli up the ground later in games to change things up if needed.

Midfield: My centre line probably surprises most of you but I think that Connors and Conca could well be the outside line breakers that we've been missing. Both appear to be quite damaging by foot when given time and space and playing on the wings of the G most weeks will certainly give them that space. They should also be able to pick their way through presses. I've opted for Martin in the guts over Cotchin but it doesn't really matter which one you go with as they are as good as each other. The idea behind having Cotchin starting out of the middle is that in the middle of quarters when the opposition are using their second stringers in the guts, we would be having the luxury of a fresh Cotchin to throw in there. I've opted to throw Lids in the square as I think its about time he actually start grabbing games by the scruff of the neck and controlling them from where it all starts. He has size endurance speed and skills that will make him a very difficult opponent to match up on and with guys like Martin Foley Cotchin roaming through there its no longer an easy choice for the opposition to simply tag Lids.

Forwards: Jack Vickery & Griffiths are the 3 talls that we'll build our forward line around and in all honesty it doesn't matter where you put them on the team sheet as they rotate around so much. Cotchin Grigg and Helbig are my options for the smaller roles purely because they more capable of pushing up into the midfield than the likes of Nahas and King. With Cotchin Martin and Deledio rotating through the midfield/forward line we have plenty of goalkicking midfield options. Those 3 are more than capable of matching the goal tallies of Nahas and King from last year and given the opportunity I believe that Helbig Conca Connors and even Grigg could also be quite handy goalkickers.

Bench/SUB/Emgencies: As mentioned I've gone with Dea and Morris on the bench to give them a chance to develop as backs and maybe even the occasional run through the middle. I went with Edwards as the 3rd bench option as I don't mind him as another mid/forward option, depending on form though you could easily swap him with Nahas or one of the 2 first round draftees. At this stage I've opted for them to be the starting sub as a way to ease them into AFL. Astbury gets the gig as the tall emergency as he has the ability to play back or forward as needed.

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

Cotchin Grigg and Helbig are my options for the smaller roles purely because they more capable of pushing up into the midfield than the likes of Nahas and King. .

I am wondering why Helbig has been rated above Nahas. I watched the Freo game again last week and felt Nahas's run up and down the ground all game was impressive. I am yet to see Helbig perform at the level yet?? Unless by 'more capable' you are basing it purely on future potential?

 

[_RT_]

I am wondering why Helbig has been rated above Nahas. I watched the Freo game again last week and felt Nahas's run up and down the ground all game was impressive. I am yet to see Helbig perform at the level yet?? Unless by 'more capable' you are basing it purely on future potential?

Granted he played well there at times last year but for me it primarily comes down to size. Helbig is 10cm taller and should be at least 10kg heavier than Nahas come the start of next season. Add to that Nahas has no opposite foot and is easily brushed aside in contests and I just don't see him as a viable long term midfield option.

 

[Livonski]

If Helbig forces Nahas out then well and good. But I reckon Nahas has got good goal sense and is lightning quick which scares the crap out of defenders and also helps him break the press when pushing up the ground.
I agree his frame is light and can see him pushed aside but so far his improvement has been significant and who knows if he's peaked? Helbig might be the answer down the track but on form Nahas is ahead. And we're picking on form now according to the boss.

 

[santa claws]

If Helbig forces Nahas out then well and good. But I reckon Nahas has got good goal sense and is lightning quick which scares the crap out of defenders and also helps him break the press when pushing up the ground.
I agree his frame is light and can see him pushed aside but so far his improvement has been significant and who knows if he's peaked? Helbig might be the answer down the track but on form Nahas is ahead. And we're picking on form now according to the boss.

yep on form moore over grimes if fit. on form miller over griffiths just to name a few.

 

[Livonski]

Moore vs Grimes? Don't think the form stacks up after a combined year and a half out. Or were you just taking the P?

 

[Madtiger2006]

yep on form moore over grimes if fit. on form miller over griffiths just to name a few.

Moore hasn't played for 18 months. No form there. Grimes should get first gig, As for Griffiths, he was in form when we lost to bombers, he was quiet against the cats but who wasn't.

 

[tigs2010]

yep on form moore over grimes if fit. on form miller over griffiths just to name a few.

May i ask Santa what form? 2010 form? Where does Jacko's 2009 form come into it? Even his 2010 form was pretty good when he wasn't suspended. So on form he should keep Conca out based on 2010 form being more important than 2011.

 

[_RT_]

If Helbig forces Nahas out then well and good. But I reckon Nahas has got good goal sense and is lightning quick which scares the crap out of defenders and also helps him break the press when pushing up the ground.
I agree his frame is light and can see him pushed aside but so far his improvement has been significant and who knows if he's peaked? Helbig might be the answer down the track but on form Nahas is ahead. And we're picking on form now according to the boss.

For mine the only basis for selection heading into 2012 is how the players perform over the next 5 months, firstly through training and then through the NAB games. Last years form doesn't mean squat. Yes its a starting point, but heading into 2012, the list is different, younger players who are highly rated have developed and then you have new recruits/draftees coming in as well that will also push for selection.

 

[Livonski]

For mine the only basis for selection heading into 2012 is how the players perform over the next 5 months, firstly through training and then through the NAB games. Last years form doesn't mean squat. Yes its a starting point, but heading into 2012, the list is different, younger players who are highly rated have developed and then you have new recruits/draftees coming in as well that will also push for selection.

Of course you're absolutely correct. But the discussion is at this point in time rather than speculating who is going to develop best over pre season. So right now Nahas>Helbig. If that reverses by round 1 then great. Hopefully Griff>Miller, Astbury>McGuane, etc ...and anyone>Jackson

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

Of course you're absolutely correct. But the discussion is at this point in time rather than speculating who is going to develop best over pre season. So right now Nahas>Helbig. If that reverses by round 1 then great. Hopefully Griff>Miller, Astbury>McGuane, etc ...and anyone>Jackson

My thoughts exactly!

And that is why the Helbig 'potential' has me worried with the pick in your side RT. Agree though...lets see what he produces in the pre season games...then more than happy to see Nahas move behind him in the pecking order if he starts racking up possies!

 

[santa claws]

May i ask Santa what form? 2010 form? Where does Jacko's 2009 form come into it? Even his 2010 form was pretty good when he wasn't suspended. So on form he should keep Conca out based on 2010 form being more important than 2011.

yea good question. perhaps i should have said performances rather than form.
we all agree the side lacks experience kelvin has that. hes played some pretty good footy when fit which hasnt been often for the whole of his career.
hes 28 played 80 90 games and id rate him over the course of his career a good solid player.
he has the runs on the board and the experience.if fit and remember both are coming of long injury problems, surely based on performances over the journey moore would get a game in front of grimes.we have two third tall defensive options they are it. if fit and firing surely moore is a best 22 player. those are two big ifs atm though.
personally i would play grimes and he is the future but if we are talking about performances over the journey and team needs moore romps in.

if kelvin does find form regains a bit of pace its a good situation to be in. who knows if grimes bulks a bit maybe he can go to a kp next yr personally i dont see the need to rush him third tall is ideal for now. to finish i dont see moore getting back at all and if he does it wont be till later in the yr.

anyway thats the thinking behind my comment.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

My thoughts exactly!

And that is why the Helbig 'potential' has me worried with the pick in your side RT. Agree though...lets see what he produces in the pre season games...then more than happy to see Nahas move behind him in the pecking order if he starts racking up possies!

If it came down to a choice between Helbig or Nahas right now, I'd take Helbig , as I think we've seen that although a nice small forward nahas ability to play various roles is very limited , whereas I hope Helbig can add more as an inside mid and if need be as a tagger or off half back ?

 

[Livonski]

If it came down to a choice between Helbig or Nahas right now, I'd take Helbig , as I think we've seen that although a nice small forward nahas ability to play various roles is very limited , whereas I hope Helbig can add more as an inside mid and if need be as a tagger or off half back ?

Maybe, but if they had to play for my life this week I'd take Nahas. And that was the context, Dimmas statement that the team will be picked on form. Not potential.

 

[TigerTime88]

Gee Nahas is getting a very rough go on here, ecpsecially when compared with a kid who imo opinion hasn;t really shown anything yet.

Nahas was probably the spark in 3-4 games last year and his gut running is what makes him a gun. Couldn't care about his size because the fact is he is an outside mid who runs opponents off there legs with his speed.

 

[TigerTime88]

Updated side based on the new direction we're heading i.e. winning over development:

B: Dylan Grimes 20 193cm 87kg 8 games Alex Rance 22 194cm 93kg 44 games Chris Newman 29 183cm 82kg 192 games

HB: Bachar Houli 23 180cm 82kg 48 games Jayden Post 21 195cm 93kg 22 games Jake Batchelor 19 188cm 78kg 16 games

C: Daniel Connors 23 186cm 84kg 27 games Dustin Martin 20 187cm 86kg 43 games Reece Conca 19 185cm 78kg 17 games

HF: Trent Cotchin 21 185cm 83kg 61 games Tyrone Vickery 21 200cm 95kg 45 games Shaun Grigg 23 190cm 84kg 64 games

F: Brad Helbig 19 185cm 77kg 10 games Jack Riewoldt 23 195cm 93kg 90 games Ben Griffiths 20 198cm 99kg 9 games

R: Ivan Maric 25 200cm 102kg 77 games Brett Deledio 24 188cm 88 kg 150 games Nathan Foley 26 178cm 80kg 110 games

I/C: Matt Dea 20 186cm 84kg 7 games Steven Morris 22 185cm 84kg 0 games Shane Edwards 23 182cm 78kg 89 games

SUB: Pick 15 or 26

EMG: David Astbury 20 195cm 92kg 22 games Robin Nahas 23 176cm 70kg 55 games Pick 15 or 26

Backs: I have given Post first crack at CHB in what is a make or break year for him. Rance and Grimes make up the other 2 talls down back. Houli and Batchelor maintain their HBF spots where both showed some pretty good form last year. Newman is the general down back who primary role is to sweep up and set up the rebound from D50. With Dea and Morris on the bench there is also the ability to push Newman or Houli up the ground later in games to change things up if needed.

Midfield: My centre line probably surprises most of you but I think that Connors and Conca could well be the outside line breakers that we've been missing. Both appear to be quite damaging by foot when given time and space and playing on the wings of the G most weeks will certainly give them that space. They should also be able to pick their way through presses. I've opted for Martin in the guts over Cotchin but it doesn't really matter which one you go with as they are as good as each other. The idea behind having Cotchin starting out of the middle is that in the middle of quarters when the opposition are using their second stringers in the guts, we would be having the luxury of a fresh Cotchin to throw in there. I've opted to throw Lids in the square as I think its about time he actually start grabbing games by the scruff of the neck and controlling them from where it all starts. He has size endurance speed and skills that will make him a very difficult opponent to match up on and with guys like Martin Foley Cotchin roaming through there its no longer an easy choice for the opposition to simply tag Lids.

Forwards: Jack Vickery & Griffiths are the 3 talls that we'll build our forward line around and in all honesty it doesn't matter where you put them on the team sheet as they rotate around so much. Cotchin Grigg and Helbig are my options for the smaller roles purely because they more capable of pushing up into the midfield than the likes of Nahas and King. With Cotchin Martin and Deledio rotating through the midfield/forward line we have plenty of goalkicking midfield options. Those 3 are more than capable of matching the goal tallies of Nahas and King from last year and given the opportunity I believe that Helbig Conca Connors and even Grigg could also be quite handy goalkickers.

Bench/SUB/Emgencies: As mentioned I've gone with Dea and Morris on the bench to give them a chance to develop as backs and maybe even the occasional run through the middle. I went with Edwards as the 3rd bench option as I don't mind him as another mid/forward option, depending on form though you could easily swap him with Nahas or one of the 2 first round draftees. At this stage I've opted for them to be the starting sub as a way to ease them into AFL. Astbury gets the gig as the tall emergency as he has the ability to play back or forward as needed.

Couple of comments to make on this side of yours. Firstly if you are in fact picking a side on form rather than development then Ben Griffiths will play VFL most of the year. Has really shown nothing at AFL level and would be picked only on potential. He took a couple of nice grabs in the dons game and that pretty sums up his AFL career to date.

Also I think you always start with your best inside mid in the centre at the start of the game aka Cotch into the middle.

The backline I like and the CHB possie is really a toss of the coin between Astbury and Post. Both seem to be having good pre seasons. Post's work in the air is alot better, but Astbury probably has a better attacking game.

Daniel Connors imo can never play wing. A player like Kade Simpson will absolutely chop him to bits with his gut running against Connors pea heart. Connors only possie could be HFF with short stints or potentially as a SUB.

My side would be as follows:

Backs: Batchelor Rance Grimes
HB: Houli Post Newman
C: Conca Martin Deledio
HFF: McCarthy Riewoldt Nahas
FF: King Vickery Pick 15
Rucks: Maric, Cotchin, Foley
Bench: Edwards, Astbury, Tuck SUB: Grigg

 

[DoItForCaptBlood]

My side would be as follows:

Backs: Batchelor Rance Grimes
HB: Houli Post Newman
C: Conca Martin Deledio
HFF: McCarthy Riewoldt Nahas
FF: King Vickery Pick 15
Rucks: Maric, Cotchin, Foley
Bench: Edwards, Astbury, Tuck SUB: Grigg

I like this side..I wonder if Morris will force someone out?