News Richmond - What if they were us?

[Deep North]

No sure of the meaning of the question.

All the things people are saying are right, but most Richmond people would know all that stuff in their bones.

I guess what I'm asking Cats people to try and do and imagine Geelong has been as crap as Richmond for 25 years and were looking at a winless season, no real draft advantages and the thinest list in the competition. What would you expect your club to do?

On another note I am currently listening to SEN on the intermawebb and I cannot believe I heard this. Terry Wallace just said (in relation to Melbourne's crowds) "if you build a great list then they will come". I imagine any Tigers fan that heard that would have been sick.

 

[Partridge]

While I agree with you mostly, the fact that Richmond have been bad now for twenty something years suggests there is alot more wrong then just the coach. I dont know enough of the administration or whatnot, but it obviously goes beyond the coach in this case.

No doubt their administration has sucked too. I think the problems at Richmond started in 1981 when they sacked Tony Jewell. They've never recovered.

For me though, if the right players aren't recruited, or not developed correctly, the blame has to rest ultimately with the coach. He's the one in charge. That's why Frawley and Wallace are the two biggest culprits.

 

[fishman]

They are Richmond. That is why they are crap.

 

[Turbocat]

All the things people are saying are right, but most Richmond people would know all that stuff in their bones.

I guess what I'm asking Cats people to try and do and imagine Geelong has been as crap as Richmond for 25 years and were looking at a winless season, no real draft advantages and the thinest list in the competition. What would you expect your club to do?

On another note I am currently listening to SEN on the intermawebb and I cannot believe I heard this. Terry Wallace just said (in relation to Melbourne's crowds) "if you build a great list then they will come". I imagine any Tigers fan that heard that would have been sick.

So you mean if Geelong had been pretty good , occasionally great to ordinary to utter rubbish what would I do. Well that sounds like Geelong pre-2007 to me. For all of my life I have followed a club that was like the good looking , evil girl. You know the sort , the one who excite you like no other , the one you could not resist but the one who breaks your heart everytime you fall for her. I suppose I would continue to support the club and just hope like hell that somebody could get their s*** together.

What I would want Geelong to do if it found itself in Richmond's situation is to get itself together off the ground. Our success wouldn't have happened without Cook and Costa. I think they have sort of done that with Gale. Then get the best people the club can to not only recruit but to train , to educate , to pamper , to enhance every player the club brings to the club. It's not just their picks , it what they have done with their picks. The jury is out in this area. When they start making players from Rookies and late picks they are on the right track.

 

[thrillhouse]

Jake Niall in The Age has written a piece about how Richmond needs and deserves draft concessions to help them up the ladder?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ichmond-20100512-uy1t.html?rand=1273667563461

My first reaction was %$#@^&!! that's the last thing those idiots deserve, they'll only piss them away again.

But really what is going to happen with that club? I quite like Richmond, that song and their supporters are pretty good, I'd say they're my second favourite team. They can still get more members than us sitting on the bottom of the ladder with no wins in sight.

They are in a seriously dire situation. Deledio and Cotchen aside, they have no good players... none! And it is all their own fault, every last little bit of their failure, they own. They may be worse than Fitzroy in the mid-nineties and for those old enough, that was pretty depressing.

So Cat fans, lets get off our gravy train for a moment. What should happen with Richmond? What would you say if was us? Before we get people jumping up and down and pointing at 1998 and all that, we were never as bad as Richmond, we might have had no cash, but we've always had players. We've never spent 25 years offering our fans little more than shite. With new teams coming in and the Tiges looking at another decade in the doldrums should we be thinking the unthinkable? If not how do we help?

I put this on our board rather than the public board because I wanted to keep it a discussion (rather than a shit-fight) and avoid being offensive to Tigers fans.

So what do we think?

If you think their fans are good, you probably need to visit bay13. I'm going to be unpopular for saying this but I'm enjoying watching them suffer. It serves them right for pissing away their draft picks and backstabbing their coaches. Absolutely no more sympathy left in the tank from me. Sorry. Your comments are appreciated though. Thanks.

 

[thrillhouse]

1986:- National Draft

#5 Michael Taylor 0 games
#18 Mark O'Keefe 0 games
#31 Glen Keast 0 games
#44 Tim Britt 0 games
#57 Michael Billman 0 games.......The Olympic Rings in terms of games played...

LOL!!

1987:- National Draft

#8 Darren Jones 0 games
#21 Shane Korth 0 games
#34 Steven Hewitt 0 games
#47 Steve McQueen 0 games (good actor though)
#60 Pat Gribble 0 games..............10 players and zilch to show for it.

HAHAHA

1988:- National Draft

#6 Ray Sterrett 20 games (cruelled by injury)
#20 Adrian Fletcher 23 games (traded out after 1991)
#34 Daryn Cresswell 0 games (Unsure how he avoided playing for us, played 200+ games for Swans!)
#62 David Welsby 2 games
#76 David Preston 0 games
#90 Kym Nicholls 0 games
#104 Andrew Gribble 0 games
Trade...Ken Hinkley for pick 48 121 games...Whoo-Hoo!! Finally some success!

ROFL!

1989:- National Draft

Picks 13 and 41 were traded to the Tigers for Trevor Poole (54 games)
Pick 27 traded for Gary Keane (0 games)
#59 Daniel Frawley 0 games
#73 Tim Birthisel 0 games
#87 Ashley Coutts 0 games
#101 Richard Harrison 0 games
#113 Shane Crothers 4 games
#115 Colum Mcmanamon 0 games (Irish recruit)

HAHAHAHA! Oh stop it I'm in stitches!!

1990:- National Draft

#1 Steven Hooper 21 games (knee injuries ruined him)
#5 Stewart Devlin 0 games
#17 Brendan Hehir 0 games
#29 Byron Donnellan 0 games
#43 Glyn Tomlinson 0 games
#57 Chris Barzen 0 games
#71 Denis Ryan 0 games
#85 Brad Dowling 0 games

I'm laughing uncontrollably!!

 

[Catsace]

That's the amazing thing. While we were drafting essentially fresh air for the best part of five seasons we were making finals from 1989-1997. And we were not far away in 1987 and 1988 as well. Makes me think that if we still did as well as we usually do with that list of nothingness in the late 80's and early 90's, then we should be in good stead from here on in. Our development ability with players is first class now, and that is being shown by how many ex-players are at other clubs with almost no diminution of our output.

Indeed Prismall seems to be copping a bit of flack from the Bombers, although i am sure he is not the reason for their woes.

 

[couchy555]

Something at that club is rotten. It seems an almost mathematical impossibility that they have drafted so many poor players in the last 25 years.
The one constant of that club in 25 years is the club itself. Players, staff, coaches, presidents etc have all been an gone through that club with no success.
To rectify it, i dunno. I think going back to the drawingboard and drafting kids and trying to rebuild is all they can do, and there just gonna have to cop the next cpl of drafts just like everyone else.

 

[leorex]

Doesn't this thread belong somewhere else

certainly not in the Geelong board.

 

[blackcat]

Interesting for you to say that Catman Forever, because Geelong's first few years with the draft were absolutely abominable. It was probably lucky that we still could get players from the reserves and under 19's or from trades as look at this litany of disaster up until the early 90's. Remarkably we actually reached our peak from 1989-95 after building from this nothingness?!

1986:- National Draft

#5 Michael Taylor 0 games
#18 Mark O'Keefe 0 games
#31 Glen Keast 0 games
#44 Tim Britt 0 games
#57 Michael Billman 0 games.......The Olympic Rings in terms of games played...

1987:- National Draft

#8 Darren Jones 0 games
#21 Shane Korth 0 games
#34 Steven Hewitt 0 games
#47 Steve McQueen 0 games (good actor though)
#60 Pat Gribble 0 games..............10 players and zilch to show for it.

1988:- National Draft

#6 Ray Sterrett 20 games (cruelled by injury)
#20 Adrian Fletcher 23 games (traded out after 1991)
#34 Daryn Cresswell 0 games (Unsure how he avoided playing for us, played 200+ games for Swans!)
#62 David Welsby 2 games
#76 David Preston 0 games
#90 Kym Nicholls 0 games
#104 Andrew Gribble 0 games
Trade...Ken Hinkley for pick 48 121 games...Whoo-Hoo!! Finally some success!

1989:- National Draft

Picks 13 and 41 were traded to the Tigers for Trevor Poole (54 games)
Pick 27 traded for Gary Keane (0 games)
#59 Daniel Frawley 0 games
#73 Tim Birthisel 0 games
#87 Ashley Coutts 0 games
#101 Richard Harrison 0 games
#113 Shane Crothers 4 games
#115 Colum Mcmanamon 0 games (Irish recruit)

1990:- National Draft

#1 Steven Hooper 21 games (knee injuries ruined him)
#5 Stewart Devlin 0 games
#17 Brendan Hehir 0 games
#29 Byron Donnellan 0 games
#43 Glyn Tomlinson 0 games
#57 Chris Barzen 0 games
#71 Denis Ryan 0 games
#85 Brad Dowling 0 games

We also had a combined seven selections in the pre-season and mid-season drafts, and netted the singular game to Bret Bailey who played in our opening round whipping at the hands of the Hawks, and never played again. 15 players, and a combined 22 games played, surely the worst draft ever!

Finally in 1991, a full five seasons after the first draft, we managed to pick up Stephen O'Rielly, traded for John Barnes and also picked up Steven Handley. Trevor Spencer, Russell Merriman, Jamie Lamb and Sean Simpson along with one-season players Leigh Willison and Geoff Miles who all played at Geelong. Only O'Reilly and Barnes could be labelled successful picks, to a lesser extent Simpson.

1992 saw us have genuine success for the first time, with pre-season picks and trades that saw Tim McGrath, Ben Graham, Leigh Colbert (pick 18, our first real 'hit' with a draft pick) Liam Pickering and Leigh Tudor.

1993 was not that good either, we had the 5-year career David Ugrinic at pick 13 who played zero AFL games, with only mid-range types like Shayne Brauer, Grant Tanner, Craig Biddiscombe and Aaron Lord playing any meaning footy from that draft.

1994 finally saw some reasonable success come through, with trades netting long-serving players Brenton Sanderson and Brad Sholl along with Carl Steinfort being picked up, although the latter was our only national draftee to play any more than a few games. Our other five picks behind Steinfort (at #17) played 11 games!!

1995 came along and finally for the first real time our drafting hit some gold. Losing both Andrew Wills and Stphen O'Reilly saw us gain Steven King and Adam Houlihan, and we actually drafted with our first four picks in the national draft the following players.

#34 Jason Snell 68 games (Suffered career ending leg injury)
#39 Glenn Kilpatrick 120 games
#48 Darren Milburn 256 games and counting
#49 Ronnie Burns 134 games

So the upshot of all of this, is that we probably were the worst drafting side of anyone in that era before finally getting things right in the mid 90's. The crazy thing is that despite this poor drafting we remained a powerful side up to 1997 before falling away for a few years until Cook, Costa and Bomber came along. Perhaps that had a lot to do with Gary Sr of course, but as we all know now we jackpotted the 1999 and 2001 draft and are seeing the rewards as we speak.

The Tigers though have sort of matched our efforts of the late 80's and early 90's with their recent efforts, but without any decent core of strong players around, the side is struggling mightily. They just have to draft and develop, something we do magnificently now, and work their way out of it. But looking at our early efforts, we have to thank the man above that we didn't wind up a rabble as Richmond are now.

drafts when teams still had u19 were highly compromised as best players were aligned to clubs in the metro.

 

[krisholio14]

True, but the recruiter is still getting players based on what the coach wants. And no player gets on a senior list without the coach's nod of approval.

So in Thompson's case, he deserves a ton of credit, in Frawley and Wallace's case, a kiloton of blame. Which they studiously try and avoid at all cost.

You can make excuses for player development, or lack or resources, or anything else, but ultimately the coach is in charge. If the team is crap and he's had more than 1-2 years at the helm, it's their fault. End of story.

Bomber had no idea who Matthew Stokes was when we drafted him.

The truth is, Richmond were us. And I can remember them as a power club for quite some time. Hell, the first Grand Final that I went to was Richmond's smashing of Collingwood in 1980.

Geelong were crap long before the late 90's. I have been around for over 50 years and can remember long periods of Geelong being absolutely crap. The years of taunts about supporting the "Handbaggers", "****y Cats", "Country Hick Hacks", "Unprofessional".

Being constantly reminded how mentally and physically soft that Geelong was.

Funny....., I don't hear that sort of talk these days.

We have never been Richmond bad in our lifetimes though.

No doubt their administration has sucked too. I think the problems at Richmond started in 1981 when they sacked Tony Jewell. They've never recovered.

For me though, if the right players aren't recruited, or not developed correctly, the blame has to rest ultimately with the coach. He's the one in charge. That's why Frawley and Wallace are the two biggest culprits.

Sacking Jewell had little to do with it. Francis Bourke got em to a Minor Premiership and a GF the next season.

What killed Richmond was the recruiting shitfight with Collingwood in 82-83, which lost them club champions David Cloke and Geoff Raines, and netted them Phillip Walsh, John Annear, and absolute guns Wally Lovett and Neil Peart.

A lot of other premiership players either retired or left the club at this point too.

Since then, when it comes to recruiting, they have been throwing good money after bad.

 

[vinum coupe]

Things must be bad. The Tigers board doesn't even have a game day thread today

Oh well, I backed them @ $5.17
Only because I want more misery down Glenferrie way


Do you reckon Geelong would ever bring in 5 players who didn't even play last week like the hawks have?
Either desperate or lacking respect for the Tigers. Both I'd say.

 

[krisholio14]

Things must be bad. The Tigers board doesn't even have a game day thread today

Oh well, I backed them @ $5.17
Only because I want more misery down Glenferrie way


Do you reckon Geelong would ever bring in 5 players who didn't even play last week like the hawks have?
Either desperate or lacking respect for the Tigers. Both I'd say.

Didn't miss by much

 

[Brasil2007]

Some of the players they've gotten rid of are pretty competent. Rodan is a terrific example. I've seen a heap of Tigers games in the past six or seven years and I thought Rodan was one of their better players. When he was at the Tigers, he always seemed to be the player at the bottom of the pack handing the ball back to the umpire. He moved well and used the ball extremely well (especially when pumping it inside 50). How someone could get rid of him and in the next breath pick up a Kent Kingsley or Jordy McMahon has me baffled. Don't get me wrong - nothing wrong with either of those two players in the right team. But they are exactly the sort of players Richmond didn't need.

Richmond's big issue is that it compounds poor choices by making poor choices on top of them. Pick the wrong coach, then extend his contract. Pick a good player then get rid of him when he's injured, freeing up a spot for a hack recycled player from someone else.

Personally, I'd love to see the Tiges back at full strength. I remember the Tiges of the 70s and 80s and they were awesome.

 

[Partridge]

Sacking Jewell had little to do with it. Francis Bourke got em to a Minor Premiership and a GF the next season.

What killed Richmond was the recruiting shitfight with Collingwood in 82-83, which lost them club champions David Cloke and Geoff Raines, and netted them Phillip Walsh, John Annear, and absolute guns Wally Lovett and Neil Peart.

A lot of other premiership players either retired or left the club at this point too.

Absolutely. And who was coach when that recruiting shitfight started? Francis Bourke. Cloke, Raines, Wood and others couldn't wait to leave due to him being in charge. Ask Richmond supporters about his shoulder test on Mick Malthouse prior to the 1982 Grand Final. Or playing Roach on a half forward flank when he was the competition's best full forward.

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Jake Niall in The Age has written a piece about how Richmond needs and deserves draft concessions to help them up the ladder?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ichmond-20100512-uy1t.html?rand=1273667563461

My first reaction was %$#@^&!! that's the last thing those idiots deserve, they'll only piss them away again.

But really what is going to happen with that club? I quite like Richmond, that song and their supporters are pretty good, I'd say they're my second favourite team. They can still get more members than us sitting on the bottom of the ladder with no wins in sight.

They are in a seriously dire situation. Deledio and Cotchen aside, they have no good players... none! And it is all their own fault, every last little bit of their failure, they own. They may be worse than Fitzroy in the mid-nineties and for those old enough, that was pretty depressing.

So Cat fans, lets get off our gravy train for a moment. What should happen with Richmond? What would you say if was us? Before we get people jumping up and down and pointing at 1998 and all that, we were never as bad as Richmond, we might have had no cash, but we've always had players. We've never spent 25 years offering our fans little more than shite. With new teams coming in and the Tiges looking at another decade in the doldrums should we be thinking the unthinkable? If not how do we help?

I put this on our board rather than the public board because I wanted to keep it a discussion (rather than a shit-fight) and avoid being offensive to Tigers fans.

So what do we think?

Give them Gaz.

 

[vinum coupe]

Didn't miss by much

Yeah but I probably should have clarified. I took them as a focal point of a multi.

Carlton to win by +24
Essendon to beat saints.

Odds were about $51
Had $26 on it. oh well.

 

[Brasil2007]

Yeah but I probably should have clarified. I took them as a focal point of a multi.

Carlton to win by +24
Essendon to beat saints.

Odds were about $51
Had $26 on it. oh well.

Bad luck mate - so near and yet...

It's interesting to speculate how certain players might have gone at the Cats vs the Tiges. I suspect for instance that the world would have a different view of Tambling if he was at the Cattery. Likewise someone like Pettifer or Schultz might have fitted better into our forward line than they did at the Tigers. Good teams almost by definition improve every player in them.