Robbie Muir- A must-read article

[Papa G]

Yeah I think many people are piling on the older blokes that actually saw Muir in action. Muir was an animal (yes and not in the racist sense), an utter viscous, terrorizing, frightening, intimidating force on the football field. Some of the stuff he did would make many of those defending him lie under their donnas sucking their thumbs. You just don't see anything like it these days.
Yes he had a bad childhood. Yes he suffered badly from Racism, Yes he had mental health issues. Yes he had problems with alcohol. That does not mean the stuff he did wasn't bad. It goes someway to explaining it, but not all people who suffer what Muir suffered become what he became.
Do we forgive the Child Molester because he was fiddled with as a child? Do we forgive murderers because they had a violent upbringing? Do we completely forgive Muir Cause Racism? No. And that is the point many are making. Muir is not blameless. He chose his own path. Did circumstance conspire against him? Yes of course it did. Could more people have helped him? Again Yes. Many factors made Muir who he was. His story is sad. But FMD it doesn't excuse a lot of the shocking stuff he did. And that is the point some of those being attacked are making.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

It's a multi-faceted discussion and a lot of my posts have been in response to others quoting me. Why do people like you insist on dictating to others?

It actually feels like you're dictating your views to others.

Passive-aggressive repetition of the exact same point is no different to 'dictating to others' really.

 

[Ron The Bear]

It actually feels like you're dictating your views to others.

Passive-aggressive repetition of the exact same point is no different to 'dictating to others' really.

How have I dictated? I haven't said it's wrong to feel sympathy or donate.

These people are actually afraid of other opinions being heard. It'd be sad if it wasn't evil.

 

[sobrave]

Yeah I think many people are piling on the older blokes that actually saw Muir in action. Muir was an animal (yes and not in the racist sense), an utter viscous, terrorizing, frightening, intimidating force on the football field. Some of the stuff he did would make many of those defending him lie under their donnas sucking their thumbs. You just don't see anything like it these days.
Yes he had a bad childhood. Yes he suffered badly from Racism, Yes he had mental health issues. Yes he had problems with alcohol. That does not mean the stuff he did wasn't bad. It goes someway to explaining it, but not all people who suffer what Muir suffered become what he became.
Do we forgive the Child Molester because he was fiddled with as a child? Do we forgive murderers because they had a violent upbringing? Do we completely forgive Muir Cause Racism? No. And that is the point many are making. Muir is not blameless. He chose his own path. Did circumstance conspire against him? Yes of course it did. Could more people have helped him? Again Yes. Many factors made Muir who he was. His story is sad. But FMD it doesn't excuse a lot of the shocking stuff he did. And that is the point some of those being attacked are making.

Agree with all that, but whose trying to excuse his actions? I haven't seen anyone doing that. It's just a sad story all around.

People are reacting to posts because most of them are along the lines of "good, stuff him, he was a thug on the field". There's no empathy.

Regardless of whether you think he was a thug, s**t bloke or whatever, surely after 40 years, the alcohol abuse, loss of family members, suicide attempts etc, the guy has suffered more than enough. There's clearly an attempt now to try to mend some of those wounds but some still seem to want to stick the boots in.

 

[Gough]

Yeah I think many people are piling on the older blokes that actually saw Muir in action. Muir was an animal (yes and not in the racist sense), an utter viscous, terrorizing, frightening, intimidating force on the football field. Some of the stuff he did would make many of those defending him lie under their donnas sucking their thumbs. You just don't see anything like it these days.
Yes he had a bad childhood. Yes he suffered badly from Racism, Yes he had mental health issues. Yes he had problems with alcohol. That does not mean the stuff he did wasn't bad. It goes someway to explaining it, but not all people who suffer what Muir suffered become what he became.
Do we forgive the Child Molester because he was fiddled with as a child? Do we forgive murderers because they had a violent upbringing? Do we completely forgive Muir Cause Racism? No. And that is the point many are making. Muir is not blameless. He chose his own path. Did circumstance conspire against him? Yes of course it did. Could more people have helped him? Again Yes. Many factors made Muir who he was. His story is sad. But FMD it doesn't excuse a lot of the shocking stuff he did. And that is the point some of those being attacked are making.

Muir isn't blameless I agree but as it stands the blame being apportioned is very one sided. Muir is being asked to take ownership of his actions while the players that sledged him are still anonymous and doubtlessly some still involved in the game.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yeah I think many people are piling on the older blokes that actually saw Muir in action. Muir was an animal (yes and not in the racist sense), an utter viscous, terrorizing, frightening, intimidating force on the football field. Some of the stuff he did would make many of those defending him lie under their donnas sucking their thumbs. You just don't see anything like it these days.
Yes he had a bad childhood. Yes he suffered badly from Racism, Yes he had mental health issues. Yes he had problems with alcohol. That does not mean the stuff he did wasn't bad. It goes someway to explaining it, but not all people who suffer what Muir suffered become what he became.
Do we forgive the Child Molester because he was fiddled with as a child? Do we forgive murderers because they had a violent upbringing? Do we completely forgive Muir Cause Racism? No. And that is the point many are making. Muir is not blameless. He chose his own path. Did circumstance conspire against him? Yes of course it did. Could more people have helped him? Again Yes. Many factors made Muir who he was. His story is sad. But FMD it doesn't excuse a lot of the shocking stuff he did. And that is the point some of those being attacked are making.

Firstly, I don't think I've read anyone saying his violent behaviour wasn't bad.

Secondly, there are entire religions based on forgiving people for doing all sorts of bad s**t - for no other reason than it says in a book somewhere that God reckons you should forgive people. Or something like that.

So if all the Catholics forgive him cause God says so - then it's not a stretch to think that plenty of people out there may forgive him based on what they now know about his background and now having some understanding about the person. Choosing to forgive someone isn't a blanket rule. Some people forgive people that kill their family members, others can't forgive their neighbour for using their green wheelie bin by mistake.

Surely no one is attempting to debate whether he should be forgiven or not? That's clearly up to the individual.

But regardless, I don't even think this topic is about forgiveness. It's not about excuses, or even reasons really. It's simply a story about a guy that plenty of people can probably relate to to some extent in one way or another - opening up and sharing his story and showing a vulnerability that many didn't know he had. It's a harrowing story and confronting to many as plenty of us don't really even know that that sort of life and hardship actually exists in reality. But it does.


I really don't know why people spend so much effort in ensuring that people they don't like but have never met - remain despised in the eyes of others.

In the big scheme of things, who gives a s**t if someone out there feels sorry for Robert Muir and forgives him? Does it really bother you? Does it impact you one bit?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

How have I dictated? I haven't said it's wrong to feel sympathy or donate.

These people are actually afraid of other opinions being heard. It'd be sad if it wasn't evil.

Are they afraid of it? Or are they sick of hearing the same thing over and over again?

 

[Ron The Bear]

Are they afraid of it? Or are they sick of hearing the same thing over and over again?

If I've said the same thing repeatedly - and I don't think I have - perhaps they'd be better off leaving my opinion be and resisting the urge to quote and belittle.

 

[Gough]

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

If I've said the same thing repeatedly - and I don't think I have - perhaps they'd be better off leaving my opinion be and resisting the urge to quote and belittle.

It's cool that you think you're clever by provoking people, then sitting back and going 'What? all I'm doing is offering an opinion people. Don't be so sensitive.', but really it's just a really tired and boring routine.

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

Funny how the two blokes in this thread who want to make this about anything other than race are the two that have posted the most. Some people state their opinion and leave it at that, I wish those two would, they've made their point, we get what you are, thank you now move along.

The telling bit in that article was how Muir felt that he was on his own and no one had his back. I don't think that would make for a very stable personality, and it would be bloody tough to live like that.

Well I think that his feeling of no one having his back comes from his father, its one thing to be bashed but the verbal abuse about being black also? That would make you very vulnerable I think and probably mean that when he was abused racially his instinct was to react as n his childhood a beating came next.

 

[Ron The Bear]

It's cool that you think you're clever by provoking people, then sitting back and going 'What? all I'm doing is offering an opinion people. Don't be so sensitive.', but really it's just a really tired and boring routine.

Yet here you are again attacking the poster because the discussion doesn't suit you.

 

[marty36]

Yeah I think many people are piling on the older blokes that actually saw Muir in action. Muir was an animal (yes and not in the racist sense), an utter viscous, terrorizing, frightening, intimidating force on the football field. Some of the stuff he did would make many of those defending him lie under their donnas sucking their thumbs. You just don't see anything like it these days.
Yes he had a bad childhood. Yes he suffered badly from Racism, Yes he had mental health issues. Yes he had problems with alcohol. That does not mean the stuff he did wasn't bad. It goes someway to explaining it, but not all people who suffer what Muir suffered become what he became.
Do we forgive the Child Molester because he was fiddled with as a child? Do we forgive murderers because they had a violent upbringing? Do we completely forgive Muir Cause Racism? No. And that is the point many are making. Muir is not blameless. He chose his own path. Did circumstance conspire against him? Yes of course it did. Could more people have helped him? Again Yes. Many factors made Muir who he was. His story is sad. But FMD it doesn't excuse a lot of the shocking stuff he did. And that is the point some of those being attacked are making.

This article was always going to create a talking point, both positive and negative as we have seen for so many individuals throughout the world, the media know how to create a reaction don't they?

Muir, is a thug and seen that way, rightly so and should have had no place on the football field at all, thats not what the sport is about, along with Rhyse Jones or Barry Hall, or Salisbury or Granger and those types of players. But that's part of the point he should never have played our game with his attitude in the first place, what caused his attitude is the problem.

Muir, obviously to a much lesser extent than some infamous people may have turned out this way due to the way he was treated like

Donald Gaskins
Aileen Wournos
Albert Fish
Jerome Brudos
Carroll Cole
John Gacy

All of which were abused as children and went onto unspeakable things, how are they seen by the public?

If St Kilda did him wrong they need to apologize, like the catholic church should apologize to all those molested by their priests, does the AFL need to apologize for one of its clubs or is it the individuals that need to stand up, does it help? Who Knows

 

[Falcon27]

That's heavy reading. Got to admire his courage to move on.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yet here you are again attacking the poster because the discussion doesn't suit you.

I haven't attacked you at all, I've attacked your posting style.


It 'doesn't suit me' because it's basically spam. It's intentionally inflammatory, and designed to antagonise. You then feign indignance and lament what all the fuss is about. It's classic troll behaviour, and not nearly as clever as you think it is. It's just boring.

I've read your opinions, many times. I agree with some, disagree with most. But after the 500th time it just wears thin. The routine of playing the impartial voice of reason who isn't afraid to speak the truth, closely followed by subtle inflammatory lines here and there is just straight up trolling. Nothing more.


You do it in most threads, but i nthis one there's already been stuff like the Hitler analogy, the leading and suggestive 'question' about a player choosing not to play at St Kilda because of Muir, and:
"Why isn't he being invited to indigenous functions?"
"Didn't look to be much wrong with either shoulder in the fence-jumping videos.."
"Muir only needs $28K for the op. Some might suggest the article has served its purpose.."
"And at an opportunistic point in time...."
"Ask yourself why his former clubs want nothing to do with him...."
"Perhaps he should allow the book to be published .."

All this s**t is clear enough to provoke people and reveal your true intent, which is to attack Muir's credibility and downplay the racism issue - whilst being subtle enough to hide behind pretend naivety. You do it all the time, and it's just boring as. It's Just run of the mill trolling. Nothing cool or clever about it.

 

[Grrr]

One thing that sticks out for me is when he was copping it from behind the goals in the SANFL, instead of coping the constant spitting on from one or more members of the crowd, he jumped the fence and dealt his own justice, as from his own history, fair justice had never been dealt out to him. Right from the time he was 16 and he was done for 2 years for tripping/kicking. That set the tone in his football life for justice that never righted itself. And that is the justice that he and his people before him had received. So while his justice was harsh, and he paid the price for it, those were the times. Violence begets violence, some people endure it, some don't.

Had a few beers with Robbie Muir at Princes Park watching Richmond v Carlton in the 90's, standing shoulder to shoulder in the outer. Great bloke, friendly, funny, accommodating. Crowd idolised him, which was ironic.

 

[Damon_3388]

It goes someway to explaining it, but not all people who suffer what Muir suffered become what he became.

They don't, but a lot more could have been done for the mental health and general wellbeing of people of all genders, races, and walks of life back then. Some of the things people just "dealt with" and "got on with", particularly children, back in the '50s-'80s, was just shocking. A lot of rug-sweeping, "that's just how it was" and "they turned out alright" has hidden a lot of behaviour that f**ked up a couple of generations of people, really.

Not excusing Muir's behaviour at all, but people didn't have and weren't given the tools to deal with all kinds of issues back then, and really didn't realise how abuse and fear (even such things as the threat of getting caned at school) truly affected a still-forming young mind.

 

[NAB777]

Very complex issue, this one.

Speaking with relatives who know & played with him, he was indeed a scary individual, sometimes 'unprovoked'.

It's likely the bipolar issue is a dominating factor in his behaviour, along with the racism he copped over the years.

But let's not revise history & go so far the other way (as some are seeming to do) as to excuse some of his behaviour, which was disgusting at times.

As always, the truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle.

I genuinely hope he gets the surgery as required, and lives out the rest of his life in relative peace.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Very complex issue, this one.

Speaking with relatives who know & played with him, he was indeed a scary individual, sometimes 'unprovoked'.

Plenty of his actions would have been unprovoked in the actual moment.

I don't think the article is absolving him of his behaviour or suggesting that he only ever acted out of provocation.

 

[Smurftown#11]

But let's not revise history & go so far the other way (as some are seeming to do) as to excuse some of his behaviour, which was disgusting at times.

I'm still yet to see anyone excusing his behaviour, just people trying to understand what might have driven the appalling acts beyond just "he was a thug".

 

[Grrr]

Very complex issue, this one.

Speaking with relatives who know & played with him, he was indeed a scary individual, sometimes 'unprovoked'.

It's likely the bipolar issue is a dominating factor in his behaviour, along with the racism he copped over the years.

But let's not revise history & go so far the other way (as some are seeming to do) as to excuse some of his behaviour, which was disgusting at times.

As always, the truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle.

I genuinely hope he gets the surgery as required, and lives out the rest of his life in relative peace.

Plenty of 'bipolar' footballers back then. Carl Dietrich was bloody frightening. Balme dealt out a heap of justice. Matthews, etc. Muir obviously had a bit of white line fever, but was it how his father taught him to dealt with things. Did he have more complex issues. Bit of both. We will never know because thankfully those days are getting less and less.

 

[David Bondo]

Very complex issue, this one.

Speaking with relatives who know & played with him, he was indeed a scary individual, sometimes 'unprovoked'.

It's likely the bipolar issue is a dominating factor in his behaviour, along with the racism he copped over the years.

But let's not revise history & go so far the other way (as some are seeming to do) as to excuse some of his behaviour, which was disgusting at times.

As always, the truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle.

I genuinely hope he gets the surgery as required, and lives out the rest of his life in relative peace.

Robbie Muir deserves an apology for racist abuse, but Don Scott is owed an apology for homophobic abuse from Robbie Muir, and Robbie Muir's victims on and off the field deserve apologies for the brutal unjusitfied beatings that Robbie Muir has carried out. The man lost 9 years of his footy career through suspensions.

He needs to take responsibility for his actions and choices in life much like the racist scum that racially abused him from outer.

Reading various Robbie Muir articles over the past couple of days there's a common theme of blaming everyone and everything else for where he is in life.

 

[Grrr]

Robbie Muir deserves an apology for racist abuse, but Don Scott is owed an apology for homophobic abuse from Robbie Muir, and Robbie Muir's victims on and off the field deserve apologies for the brutal unjusitfied beatings that Robbie Muir has carried out. The man lost 9 years of his footy career through suspensions.

He needs to take responsibility for his actions and choices in life much like the racist scum that racially abused him from outer.

That may be so, but he has never talked about it, and now we can understand how society and the football industry spat him out. He was subjected to a 2 year ban as a 16 year old for something that he did not do. That's pretty heavy and that is how he started off his footy. His upbringing everything was brutal.

 

[Xxxx66]

Robbie Muir deserves an apology for racist abuse, but Don Scott is owed an apology for homophobic abuse from Robbie Muir, and Robbie Muir's victims on and off the field deserve apologies for the brutal unjusitfied beatings that Robbie Muir has carried out. The man lost 9 years of his footy career through suspensions.

He needs to take responsibility for his actions and choices in life much like the racist scum that racially abused him from outer.

Reading various Robbie Muir articles over the past couple of days there's a common theme of blaming everyone and everything else for where he is in life.

out of curiosity, how old are you?

 

[David Bondo]

That may be so, but he has never talked about it, and now we can understand how society and the football industry spat him out. He was subjected to a 2 year ban as a 16 year old for something that he did not do. That's pretty heavy and that is how he started off his footy. His upbringing everything was brutal.

Has there ever been a bigger fuss about a 68 game VFL player?

The footy industry didn't spit him out. He played footy around the country for three decades for crying out loud. Was suspended for nearly 200 games during those three decades. Talk about a protected species. Bashed umpires, bashed teammates, bashed coaching staff, bashed spectators, yet teams still gave Muir chance after chance to redeem himself at another club -- for 30 YEARS.