Round 1 preview: Essendon

[jumpman5]

The problem for Essendon is the support for these players, esp in the midfield. Plus they never bring their A game to AAMI.

I am cringing at the thought of Stevens on Lucas, Stevens would want to be switched on otherwise Lucas could be the difference....

Although S.Stevens does have an incredible knack of making his doubters look stupid....

 

[WaynesWorld19]

WW I know that you have an inherint bias against Shirley but in the two pre-season games I have seen first hand Craig has used Shirley as the first tagging option with VB the second. In the port game VB was started on the wing as a second tagging option while Shirley was also on the ground. Then with a few injuries he resorted to Shirley as the single tagging option with VB his replacement whenever Shirley was heading to the bench for a rest.

You seriously need to go back and watch a few games if you think that Shirley is not an attacking player - he is often the one at the bottom of the packs feeding the ball out or else he can be fairly handy around the goals. But we have had this argument before and I can't see you changing your mind.

People need to remember that the game is no longer played the way it was 10 years ago, let alone 5. A player that takes his place at the start of the game will not spend the entire game in that one position, especially midfielders. They will be rotated very regulary off so when picking a team you need to consider who is on the bench and what position / rotation they offer / compliment. That is what I meant by if you have one tagger in the team, you really need two named.

Point 1: Don't have a bias against any player ...I call it as I see it and I have the luxury by not having my POV colored by local media.

Point 2: I'd take a vote on this forum and I think you might find it hard to convince people that Shirley is an "attacking" player in my definition of attack.
I mean't penetrating play including goal scoring ....often called the "hurt" factor with possessions.

Shirley I agree is at the bottom of packs and yes he right up there in statistics with hardball gets .....but his possessions IMO do not hurt opposition teams.

The last couple of years we have been "thrashed" in midfield clearances ...whilst those who know me also understand that I was not a Stenglein fan I would be surprised if Shirleys clearnce stats are anywhere near as good as Stengleins .....but on this point I do stand to be corrected if anyone has the numbers?

Point3: Irrelevant ....the game has the same principles now as 30 years ago .....just that the skills and tactics brought about by the interchange concept have added the need for rotations.

Still have to get the ball from point a to B as quick as you can to score and prevent "flooding" as it's called today (but it's always been in the game)

My original point is I prefer VB as the tagging option and the introduction of Knights and Porplyzia into the best 22 ....why ? ....because this year with injuries to our talls we need more attacking optionsand more flexibility.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Just thought I would get some support for my views on Porplyzia who most don't have in their best 22

ANALYSIS: Window closing on Crows
by: Paul Gough
Sportal
Ins: Bryce Campbell (Norwood), Nick Gill (North Adelaide), David Mackay (Oakleigh Chargers), James Sellar (Glenelg), Kurt Tippett (Southport).

Outs: Matthew Clarke, Chad Gibson, Ben Hart, Alan Obst, Hayden Skipworth.

Draw: Good draw for the Crows with return matches against only three of last year's finalists and just one of last year's top four in Fremantle. Also goes to Perth just once although they do to go to Queensland twice, including a game against the Kangaroos on the Gold Coast.

Strengths: The AFL's best defence, an experienced midfield and one of the most pronounced home ground advantages in the AFL. The Crows conceded the second least amount of points in the competition last year and the least in 2005 but fell to the Eagles in the preliminary final each time. In Simon Goodwin and Andrew McLeod they have two of the league's best midfielders and they have plenty of back-up through young guns such as Brent Reilly, Nathan Van Berlo, Robert Shirley and Jason Porplyzia. And they play 12 of their 22 games each year at AAMI Stadium.


Weaknesses: A lack of ruckmen, the lack of a match-winning forward and an ageing list. With Matthew Clarke gone to St Kilda and Rhett Biglands out for the season, the Crows are short of experienced big men leaving all the pressure on Ben Hudson to stand-up in his first season back following a serious knee injury. And the Crows will also play the season without their second-highest goalscorer from last year in Trent Hentschel. The Crows' best 22 also features 12 players who will begin 2007 aged 27 or over, placing doubts on the team's ability to stand up to the rigours of a gruelling season.

X-Factor: Jason Porplyzia - The word from Adelaide is this kid could be anything and after 11 games in his debut season last year, expect the versatile 22-year-old to play a major role this season.

Best 22
B: Johncock, Rutten, Bassett
HB: Edwards, McGregor, Shirley
C: Mattner, Thompson, van Berlo
HF: Reilly, Bock, Burton
F: Bode, Ricciuto, Welsh
Foll: Hudson, Goodwin, McLeod
Interchange: Porplyzia, Torney, Doughty, Perrie

After Round 22: 5-8. The Crows 'window of opportunity' to win a flag is rapidly closing and while they will still be major contenders this year, the loss of Biglands and Hentschel looks to big a hurdle to overcome.

Obviously into this 22 Stevens comes in for McGregor (and probably did anyway at CHB) and Griffin in for ? .....

 

[Crow-mo]

WW I know that you have an inherint bias against Shirley but in the two pre-season games I have seen first hand Craig has used Shirley as the first tagging option with VB the second. In the port game VB was started on the wing as a second tagging option while Shirley was also on the ground. Then with a few injuries he resorted to Shirley as the single tagging option with VB his replacement whenever Shirley was heading to the bench for a rest.

You seriously need to go back and watch a few games if you think that Shirley is not an attacking player - he is often the one at the bottom of the packs feeding the ball out or else he can be fairly handy around the goals. But we have had this argument before and I can't see you changing your mind.

People need to remember that the game is no longer played the way it was 10 years ago, let alone 5. A player that takes his place at the start of the game will not spend the entire game in that one position, especially midfielders. They will be rotated very regulary off so when picking a team you need to consider who is on the bench and what position / rotation they offer / compliment. That is what I meant by if you have one tagger in the team, you really need two named.

First Class

 

[maccas_no1]

Crows by 27 pts.

 

[Gets!]

Crows by 86 points.

Griffin and Hudson to rotate in the ruck.

Tippett to be on the Interchange.

 

[betterthanu]

Crows by 38 points

welsh to kick 6 goals

 

[NikkiNoo]

Point 1: Don't have a bias against any player ...I call it as I see it and I have the luxury by not having my POV colored by local media.

So do I, but I am willing to listen to other views and make up my mind that way, as I know that I don't have all the answers/ know everything. The second point there you are inferring that my POV has been coloured by the local media, I refuse to buy or read the crapertiser and I may listen to 5AA but that is mainly for the interviews not the views sprouted by the talking heads that I often end up yelling at the radio as they are jsut so stuck in the past and can't look past their own little boxes.

Point 2: I'd take a vote on this forum and I think you might find it hard to convince people that Shirley is an "attacking" player in my definition of attack.
I mean't penetrating play including goal scoring ....often called the "hurt" factor with possessions.

Shirley I agree is at the bottom of packs and yes he right up there in statistics with hardball gets .....but his possessions IMO do not hurt opposition teams.

The last couple of years we have been "thrashed" in midfield clearances ...whilst those who know me also understand that I was not a Stenglein fan I would be surprised if Shirleys clearnce stats are anywhere near as good as Stengleins .....but on this point I do stand to be corrected if anyone has the numbers?

If we get the ball out and it ends up in our forward line that doesn't hurt the opposition? You have very high standards. It has actually only been the last year that our clearances from centre have been poor (and that is not Shirley's fault but in fact our WHOLE midfield) and yet we made a PF. In 2005 we led the league in clearances for most of the year from memory and Shirley was a part of this.

Your last paragraph there is based on lies, damn lies and statistics - you will not be able to get the right statistics for my satisfaction as you can't compare Stinger in his current team to ours, a different set up and they have different roles within their team. If you get stats from when he was with us and compare with Shirleys they will be from different years and systems, so they will again be meaningless.

Point3: Irrelevant ....the game has the same principles now as 30 years ago .....just that the skills and tactics brought about by the interchange concept have added the need for rotations.

Still have to get the ball from point a to B as quick as you can to score and prevent "flooding" as it's called today (but it's always been in the game)

My original point is I prefer VB as the tagging option and the introduction of Knights and Porplyzia into the best 22 ....why ? ....because this year with injuries to our talls we need more attacking options and more flexibility.

It is not irrelevant, the game may have the same principles of getting the pigskin through the two really big sticks more than your opponent does before the time runs out, but the strategies used are much more advanced than then and as such you can't have one tagger in the team. You even conceed that in what you say above. You think VB can do the job all day when no other tagger in the league does that, I know we consider VB to be God around these parts but

It just shows to me that you don't have a full understanding of the way our team plays the game these days. Next time you are at a game, sit behind the interchange bench and watch when and who comes off and who replaces them. Then come back and discuss it with me.

 

[Alex99]

Shirley is handy in and under the pack as you say but around goals? He lacks penetration and is not a great finisher and, as others have said, which Dons midfielder actually needs a tag?

That’s no reason to drop him. Robert Shirley has won his place in the side with hard work and perseverance and should be rewarded for his consistent form.

Over the last 40 to 50 games (2 years) he has played a truck load more good game than bad ones and has shown he is more than just a run with player. Yes he is our number 1 run with player but in the overall scream of things he offers more to the side than just that.

 

[Mad Dog]

the point about playing poorly at aami is valid. but it will turn around sooner or later, and it could be in two weeks that this happens.

yep, we finished with just three wins last year. but treat us lightly at your peril.

likely squad (although who knows where sheedy will have them play?):

slattery , michael, m. johnson
mcphee, fletcher, lovett-murry
lovett, watson, winderlich
hird, lucas, monfries
davey, lloyd, johns

hille, stanton, mcveigh

int: peverill or heffernan (as a tagger on goodwin), ryder, bradley and one of welsh/jetta/dyson.

i thought we were going to have an edge in the ruck, but laycock did a hammy last week, so is unlikely to play. hudson vs hille will be vital.

our backline should go ok against your forwards, and fletch could kill you with his delivery if you can't make him accountable. where will your goals come from? probably the midfield!

can we cover goodwin/ edwards/birdman? will be tough, but we'll be quicker through the middle than we were last year, and might give you something to think about going the other way.

up forward, i think rutten will do ok on lloyd - lloyd still looks rusty to me. not sure who you'll have on lucas? and a third marking player in johns? monfries and davey are dangerous around goal - would be a cracking duel to see mcleod on davey. and i hope we take jetta over. another rapid, mercurial young fella.

in short, i reckon our backline, and your lack of roo/mcgregor etc, can keep us in touch. through the middle you have the edge, but maybe not by as much as you think. up front, we can trouble you if we get enough of it.
hopefully, it aint another 15 goal drubbing. i don't think it will be.

thanks for that - good summary - put a couple of bucks on the dons for a win and you might be able to afford a keyboard with capslock......

 

[Mad Dog]

WW I know that you have an inherint bias against Shirley but in the two pre-season games I have seen first hand Craig has used Shirley as the first tagging option with VB the second. In the port game VB was started on the wing as a second tagging option while Shirley was also on the ground. Then with a few injuries he resorted to Shirley as the single tagging option with VB his replacement whenever Shirley was heading to the bench for a rest.

You seriously need to go back and watch a few games if you think that Shirley is not an attacking player - he is often the one at the bottom of the packs feeding the ball out or else he can be fairly handy around the goals. But we have had this argument before and I can't see you changing your mind.

People need to remember that the game is no longer played the way it was 10 years ago, let alone 5. A player that takes his place at the start of the game will not spend the entire game in that one position, especially midfielders. They will be rotated very regulary off so when picking a team you need to consider who is on the bench and what position / rotation they offer / compliment. That is what I meant by if you have one tagger in the team, you really need two named.

nail.......

 

[NikkiNoo]

nail.......

*looks around for hammer*

 

[Crow-mo]

Ah look, and I don't mean any dis-respect to Essendon - but this game should not be an issue for us.

Essendon are famously crap travellers to Footy park, and they came off a season where they won 3 games or so. we were right in the mix for the flag.

NOW, I am not saying the game won't be an issue - but that it should NOT be.

We've got a few forward issues, but nothing we have not known about for a while now. hell we even gave Scotty Welsh the option to bugger off from the club - there had better be a lot of knowing, and philosophical dogma behind that. Cause, he seems our most able avenue to goal, and if we didn't think we needed him - it better be obvious why.

We've had long enough to plan for this, and we claim to be a far, far, superior outfit to Essendon. if we aren't, we have no excuses.

I want to see progress this year, and there is no way this side of WW admitting he was wrong on Rob Shirley, that this does not include anything short of a good thumping of the Bombers at home.

 

[Shane Hird]

Your mob are going to be the first ones to test and see if a Lloyd,Johns,Lucas,Hird,Monfries and Davey(?) can work for us.


Should be interesting indeed

 

[WaynesWorld19]

S


If we get the ball out and it ends up in our forward line that doesn't hurt the opposition? You have very high standards. It has actually only been the last year that our clearances from centre have been poor (and that is not Shirley's fault but in fact our WHOLE midfield) and yet we made a PF. In 2005 we led the league in clearances for most of the year from memory and Shirley was a part of this.
.

Nikki you can't argue both sides .....either he was responsible for being part of league leading midfield in 2005 and therefore also responsible for the poor performance in 2006 OR he's not accountable for either result.

BTW the midfield clearances WAS as poor in 2005 as it was in 2006!

The argument that he get's the ball out and therefore by default he does have a hurt factor is an interesting perspective ....but in the context that i was argueing that the player being tagged has to change his game to take on a more defensive action I don't think Shirley very often has his opponent on the back foot.

 

[Osmodiar]

I expect Adelaide to go backwards a bit this year IMO, but they shouldnt have trouble beating us yet, especially at aami.

Without Roo anything is possible, that guy is so vital to your success this year. Much like hird is for us.

I know they say one player doesnt make a difference, but when that player is Ricciuto i think that saying is BS

 

[Stiffy_18]

Point 1: Don't have a bias against any player ...I call it as I see it and I have the luxury by not having my POV colored by local media.

Point 2: I'd take a vote on this forum and I think you might find it hard to convince people that Shirley is an "attacking" player in my definition of attack.
I mean't penetrating play including goal scoring ....often called the "hurt" factor with possessions.

Shirley I agree is at the bottom of packs and yes he right up there in statistics with hardball gets .....but his possessions IMO do not hurt opposition teams.

The last couple of years we have been "thrashed" in midfield clearances ...whilst those who know me also understand that I was not a Stenglein fan I would be surprised if Shirleys clearnce stats are anywhere near as good as Stengleins .....but on this point I do stand to be corrected if anyone has the numbers?

Point3: Irrelevant ....the game has the same principles now as 30 years ago .....just that the skills and tactics brought about by the interchange concept have added the need for rotations.

Still have to get the ball from point a to B as quick as you can to score and prevent "flooding" as it's called today (but it's always been in the game)

My original point is I prefer VB as the tagging option and the introduction of Knights and Porplyzia into the best 22 ....why ? ....because this year with injuries to our talls we need more attacking optionsand more flexibility.

Thats all well and good but here is where your view fails dramatically.

You have held the same view regarding Shirley for 3 years now. That hasn't changed one bit. However, the thing that GREATLY contradicts your view regading Shirley is that

a) He has been a regular in our side for 3 or 4 years now
b) In the last couple of years he was top 10 in the B&F, and in those years we played off in the PF
c) Despite you find a way to always leave him out of your side, the match committee just keep picking him up.

So this is my question to you,

Do you think that those that run the football club are wrong and you are right or is it a case of you not being able to see forest from the trees?

Looking forward to your answer

 

[WaynesWorld19]

It is not irrelevant, the game may have the same principles of getting the pigskin through the two really big sticks more than your opponent does before the time runs out, but the strategies used are much more advanced than then and as such you can't have one tagger in the team. You even conceed that in what you say above. You think VB can do the job all day when no other tagger in the league does that, I know we consider VB to be God around these parts but

It just shows to me that you don't have a full understanding of the way our team plays the game these days. Next time you are at a game, sit behind the interchange bench and watch when and who comes off and who replaces them. Then come back and discuss it with me.

And of course you do .........

 

[go team]

Fear the wrath of Mark Bolton - the day is named in his honor, after all...

 

[ShearMagic9]

Fear the wrath of Mark Bolton - the day is named in his honor, after all...

Boom tish

 

[- PC -]

Silly question... how does Lloyd go on Rutten or vice versa? Is Rutten mobile enough?

The reason I ask is that if we fall short in the forward line and Rutten is not an obvious match on Lloyd ...why not move Rutten to FF and have say a Bassett on Lloyd?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Thats all well and good but here is where your view fails dramatically.

You have held the same view regarding Shirley for 3 years now. That hasn't changed one bit. However, the thing that GREATLY contradicts your view regading Shirley is that

a) He has been a regular in our side for 3 or 4 years now
b) In the last couple of years he was top 10 in the B&F, and in those years we played off in the PF
c) Despite you find a way to always leave him out of your side, the match committee just keep picking him up.

So this is my question to you,

Do you think that those that run the football club are wrong and you are right or is it a case of you not being able to see forest from the trees?

Looking forward to your answer

These are good questions and the most appropriate challenging of my views I have seen (without emotional claptrap)

The 3 points you raise are completely true and those facts do not support my POV.

But also in those 4 years we have been close to the prize but no cigar ....so ...one assumes there are weaknesses in our team that have to be addressed to advance that one step.

It's often said that the step from second to first is the biggest step of all ....

That means that there ARE players in our side over those years that have been good enough a) to get consistent games B) have been good enough to get us to 2 preliminary finals .......BUT are they good enough to get us to the ultimate prize.

This is where it gets tough ... but also where really tough decisions have to be made.
Everyone wants the next crop of young midfielders to get games but very very few are prepared to name players that will make way for them.

Here's my point where everyone gets lost in that what Iam saying (and I have said this manytimes so Iam amused that people misinterpret) is that in time the players in the team that I see making way for these new players is Bode, McGregor and Shirley.
That's not to say that they should not still be picked on performance and that the next crop have to earn their spots. Iam just identifying the weakest links.

Why these two:
Bode: slow, not great disposal and I believe even now that Porplyzia is a more talented player and better option.

Shirley: if Brownlow medals were given for effort he's surely win one but I could say the same for Skipworth in his efforts to play AFL. I just don't think he's the most talented on our list and ultimately I think he'll be replaced with an equally comitted player with more talent and ability to hurt the opposition as a tagger.

McGregor: Workhorse in the Mensch mould, yes fills a role as a tall but not attacking enough as a backman in Craigs gamestyle and not enough tricks as a forward particularly as he rarely leaps for balls.

Interesting that last year when I mentioned Van Berlo as a tagging option people said it was a waste of talent for a tagging role ...guess what role VB is doing now ???

Iam a strong believer within the AFL of the need for successful AFL teams to have talented commited players .....the dogged ones get you so far and keep you competitive BUT talent win flags

 

[Crow-mo]

And of course you do .........

don't be so precious petal.

yes, I think she does.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

don't be so precious petal.

yes, I think she does.

just got me on the wrong day