Round 13 changes

[BuntonRules]

All things come to pass. Not what I would do, but right now Lyons is a better option than Rayner.

 

[Dalions]

All things come to pass. Not what I would do, but right now Lyons is a better option than Rayner.

This year has become about the future not the past.

 

[Nathan Barley]

All things come to pass. Not what I would do, but right now Lyons is a better option than Rayner.

You don't think Rayner could match Lyons output in the 2s?

 

[Tom14]

All things come to pass. Not what I would do, but right now Lyons is a better option than Rayner.

Putting lyons in the team would be just about the dumbest thing at this point. If you want to try tunstill or dev I get it.

JL won't be on our list next year (and I'd be surprised if he was on any list).

 

[martinson]

Putting lyons in the team would be just about the dumbest thing at this point. If you want to try tunstill or dev I get it.

JL won't be on our list next year (and I'd be surprised if he was on any list).

I think he was just making a non practical point.

I'd love Rayner in the reserves just to see how much better than Lyons he actually is and whether he could run around in the midfield for an extended period and have some impact.

Or are we going to just let him run around aimlessly like he has for most of the year going in to the midfield when he feels like it ( the coach said that not me )

 

[martinson]

Everyone knows JL is done as a Senior player. To his credit he gave his all whilst he was able to and was a significant factor in our team getting off the bottom of the pile.

 

[mpal6]

You don't think Rayner could match Lyons output in the 2s?

Not in 2s, no. Lyons wins hardball in the center bounce and he's a level above in 2s for that craft. Lazy 30+ possessions like Matho used to do. Rayner has never done it properly in both 1s or 2s, he'll be an enigma there too.

Lyons, while slow, still puts in the effort to find footy. Rayner's problem will be effort for all 4 quarters.

 

[martinson]

Not in 2s, no. Lyons wins hardball in the center bounce and he's a level above in 2s for that craft. Lazy 30+ possessions like Matho used to do. Rayner has never done it properly in both 1s or 2s, he'll be an enigma there too.

Lyons, while slow, still puts in the effort to find footy. Rayner's problem will be effort for all 4 quarters.

The obvious thing to me with Cam , which I've been waiting for someone to raise for 3 years , is that he doesn't like pressure.

He went to water in the GF when we had the bright idea to use him as a spare in defence.

Responsibility and onus isn't for him. He tightens up when the game is tight , like the last 5 minutes against Adelaide.

The coaches have overestimated his capacities and temperament for the contest.

But when he gets a free flowing go at it like in the final against PA he can kick some inspirational goals.

So whether the club is on top of this I don't know but he needs a role where he's not any key to our performance.

I feel sorry for bagging the guy because the club and supporters want a lot more than he's able to give I suspect.

 

[Helicon1]

Not in 2s, no. Lyons wins hardball in the center bounce and he's a level above in 2s for that craft. Lazy 30+ possessions like Matho used to do. Rayner has never done it properly in both 1s or 2s, he'll be an enigma there too.

Lyons, while slow, still puts in the effort to find footy. Rayner's problem will be effort for all 4 quarters.

Agree Matho and Lyons are/were trying to prove themselves worthy of selection. Rayner, unfortunately, has never had to do that.

 

[Nunez]

Who do you put in the middle though? Once Ashcroft is back it's a no brainer, but who goes in now?

I guess you could go Sharp on one wing, put Berry in the middle and Bags on the other wing, but one would think Bags is stuck in the middle for now.

I think it's time we sink serious midfield minutes into Cam to see if he's up to it.

Run the midfield:
Neale
Dunkley
Rayner
Berry
Bailey
Reville

 

[martinson]

I think it's time we sink serious midfield minutes into Cam to see if he's up to it.

Run the midfield:
Neale
Dunkley
Rayner
Berry
Bailey
Reville

Any club in our situation would be doing it without any hesitation if they thought he could Nunez.

Btw I'm all for it so we can put that to bed if he struggles.

 

[Nunez]

Any club in our situation would be doing it without any hesitation if they thought he could Nunez.

Btw I'm all for it so we can put that to bed if he struggles.

We didn't think Morris was ready for senior football.

We didn't Reville was draftable for several years.

In took over a month to put Berry on the ball.

Sometimes in footy and life you don't know until you give something a crack. It doesn't always work out, but do we really have much to lose? We are obviously not going to win the flag this year, so it's a great opportunity to see what we can learn about players and Cam the midfielder is the biggest question mark we have.

I say let's open Pandora's box.

 

[BuntonRules]

All things come to pass. Not what I would do, but right now Lyons is a better option than Rayner.

 

[StevoJenkins]

I think it's time we sink serious midfield minutes into Cam to see if he's up to it.

Run the midfield:
Neale
Dunkley
Rayner
Berry
Bailey
Reville

I would like to chuck him in for the whole game 3 or 4 times and see how he goes, but if it ain't happening with Dev, it's not happening with Rayner.

 

[Nunez]

I would like to chuck him in for the whole game 3 or 4 times and see how he goes, but if it ain't happening with Dev, it's not happening with Rayner.

I like Dev, but he's more of a Dunkley or Berry than a Rayner.

Rayner has that burst from stoppage only Lachie currently displays. It's what we're missing above all else in the middle.

 

[mpal6]

I like Dev, but he's more of a Dunkley or Berry than a Rayner.

Rayner has that burst from stoppage only Lachie currently displays. It's what we're missing above all else in the middle.

Rayner doesn't instinctively goes for it though. Its either Lachie or Big O clearance or nothing.
If our coaching panel was worth anything, they would've put the first quarter 6 clearances vs Pies in a video loop and instruct Rayner to "go and try to do this in every single game in the middle. Just go for broke trying to find footy".

Instead we've moved him completely outside and I've barely seen him in the middle since then.

 

[Squizz89]

I think it's time we sink serious midfield minutes into Cam to see if he's up to it.

Run the midfield:
Neale
Dunkley
Rayner
Berry
Bailey
Reville

The problem is mate, we and in particular you, have been saying this for a while now. For whatever reason the club refuse to do/or simply Cam himself just can’t do it. I agree with you in that is what we should do, but nothing the club or Cam has shown suggests that’s going to actually happen though.

 

[Nunez]

Rayner doesn't instinctively goes for it though. Its either Lachie or Big O clearance or nothing.
If our coaching panel was worth anything, they would've put the first quarter 6 clearances vs Pies in a video loop and instruct Rayner to "go and try to do this in every single game in the middle. Just go for broke trying to find footy".

Instead we've moved him completely outside and I've barely seen him in the middle since then.

IMO there are two issues.

1) how we are coaching him to approach stoppages.

2) how much freedom we give him to play on feel.

IMO, he needs to be the guy we try and play through. He doesn't need to be the clearance winning bull, but the guy who gets the pill off Dunks or Berry and charges past the other outside mid to clear the ball - exactly how Neale did this weekend.

Secondly, we give him so much freedom to play up the ground when he's "feeling it". Some guys - and I am convinced this includes Cam - need black and white clear instructions. Playing on feel is an easy way to stay uninvolved. Some guys want to be the man, some guys just don't have the confidence to be the man until you say "Cam, you get a month on the ball. Go out and be the man.". It shouldn't be his call. Has to be given the ball and a chance to run with it. At this point, who cares if we lose or not. The season is shifting away from seeding for finals and over to developing where our players are at in context to next and future seasons.

 

[mpal6]

IMO there are two issues.

1) how we are coaching him to approach stoppages.

2) how much freedom we give him to play on feel.

IMO, he needs to be the guy we try and play through. He doesn't need to be the clearance winning bull, but the guy who gets the pill off Dunks or Berry and charges past the other outside mid to clear the ball - exactly how Neale did this weekend.

Secondly, we give him so much freedom to play up the ground when he's "feeling it". Some guys - and I am convinced this includes Cam - need black and white clear instructions. Playing on feel is an easy way to stay uninvolved. Some guys want to be the man, some guys just don't have the confidence to be the man until you say "Cam, you get a month on the ball. Go out and be the man.". It shouldn't be his call. Has to be given the ball and a chance to run with it. At this point, who cares if we lose or not. The season is shifting away from seeding for finals and over to developing where our players are at in context to next and future seasons.

I agree but Fagan has never prescribed to this school of thought as long as he believes we are still in contention. This may be the first time where by round 15-16 we're not finals worthy is going to come up on him. How he reacts to that this early is anybody's guess.

 

[SizeMatters]

Rayner is fast becoming a bust. Bloke gets 10 touches a game (usually half of those in a 5 minute burst) and people keep banging on about chucking him in the middle like that's going to solve anything. He's a lazy, dumb and on the lower end for skilled footballers. His physical shape and ability to jump is tantalising for sure but how many more times does he have to run himself into trouble or sky ball the ball forward in his few touches a game does it take before posters see he's just not good.

Tom Bell

Tom Bell

Age

34

Ht

188cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.0

4star

K

10.4

4star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.5

5star

G

0.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

14.0

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

5.0

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

4.2

5star

G

0.6

3star

has had a better career than Rayner at the same point of their careers...

 

[3KZ is Football]

The obvious thing to me with Cam , which I've been waiting for someone to raise for 3 years , is that he doesn't like pressure.

He went to water in the GF when we had the bright idea to use him as a spare in defence.

Responsibility and onus isn't for him. He tightens up when the game is tight , like the last 5 minutes against Adelaide.

The coaches have overestimated his capacities and temperament for the contest.

But when he gets a free flowing go at it like in the final against PA he can kick some inspirational goals.

So whether the club is on top of this I don't know but he needs a role where he's not any key to our performance.

I feel sorry for bagging the guy because the club and supporters want a lot more than he's able to give I suspect.

Rayner in 3 words:
1. Down
2. Hill
3. Skier

 

[martinson]

Rayner is fast becoming a bust. Bloke gets 10 touches a game (usually half of those in a 5 minute burst) and people keep banging on about chucking him in the middle like that's going to solve anything. He's a lazy, dumb and on the lower end for skilled footballers. His physical shape and ability to jump is tantalising for sure but how many more times does he have to run himself into trouble or sky ball the ball forward in his few touches a game does it take before posters see he's just not good.

Tom Bell has had a better career than Rayner at the same point of their careers...

You've gone over the top throwing Tom in there SM but the central issue in this endless debate is that people ,maybe the club included, can't see that Cam is just an average player in any of the facets that are required for the modern game.

I.E. Persistence ,effort , athletic capacity, hard work and skill.

He just doesn't thrive under real pressure because he doesn't have the temperament/prep.

But I'm happy to go along with Nunez and throw him into the M/F for an extended run and tell him to just go for it. Preferably in the 2's but in the firsts is ok now.

My take is that the powers that be don't do it because they don't want everyone to see the outcome. It has to be conceded that he showed for a quarter given the right circumstances it's possible.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

We didn't think Morris was ready for senior football.

We didn't Reville was draftable for several years.

In took over a month to put Berry on the ball.

Sometimes in footy and life you don't know until you give something a crack. It doesn't always work out, but do we really have much to lose? We are obviously not going to win the flag this year, so it's a great opportunity to see what we can learn about players and Cam the midfielder is the biggest question mark we have.

I say let's open Pandora's box.

Early in Zorks career he looked a good player when playing up forward. I was confident he would be a good onballer.

Cam is a crap forward so how anyone thinks he could make it in the engine room beats me!!

 

[beardancer]

Putting lyons in the team would be just about the dumbest thing at this point. If you want to try tunstill or dev I get it.

JL won't be on our list next year (and I'd be surprised if he was on any list).

Lyons is playing the best football of his life.....and that's saying something.

 

[Lazza16]

Out Ryan
In Hipwood

The rest depends on injury/returns from injury.

Sharp either needs to start games or play VFL. He isn't sub material.
If Starce is back i'd bring him in and make Answerth sub.
I'd like to see Brain in but not sure how. I think we have reached a tipping point of inexperience and someone of equal inexperience needs to come out for Brain to come in. So it'd be Reville for Brain?

Being at the game I witnessed Answerth, Froggy and Harris working hard unlike others....Answerth skills may not be perfect but give me a guy willing to give his 100% effort over a skillfull dude giving 65%.