Autopsy Round 7, 2020: Sydney vs Gold Coast @SCG

[The King!]

Wasn’t marsh the next JPK

ended up the next mitch marsh

 

[swanssince2002]

ended up the next mitch marsh

Basically if Marsh was playing 200 games for us, then yes...

 

[WillHayward]

Wasn’t marsh the next JPK

Dunno if anyone said that. Was a late pick. More like next jared crouch...

 

[bungee]

It's pretty hard to win games with an average age of 23 8 months and just 64.5 games experience.

Our last win was at an average player age of 25 years and 84.7 games experience but our team seems to get younger with every game.

North 25yr 0 mth
Dogs 24yr 10 mth
Eagles 24yr 4mth
Tigers 24yr 2mth
Suns 23yr 8mths

In total, we've lost 29 years & 4 months and 444.4 games experience since our last win. Compare this to the average age of GF teams since 2011 : Winner 26 years 5 months vs Loser 25 years 11 months.

We have to be realistic that our team have a way to go (grow) yet but we can also optimistic that we have some good young talent coming through.

To borrow from the 4th stanza of the 1914 poem...

For the Fallen (Swans)

They shall grow older, as we fans also grow old
Age shall not weary them, nor the media condemn.
After going down to the Suns and in our mourning
We will vilify the coach on Big Footy

 

[caesar88]

It's pretty hard to win games with an average age of 23 8 months and just 64.5 games experience.

Our last win was at an average player age of 25 years and 84.7 games experience but our team seems to get younger with every game.

North 25yr 0 mth
Dogs 24yr 10 mth
Eagles 24yr 4mth
Tigers 24yr 2mth
Suns 23yr 8mths

In total, we've lost 29 years & 4 months and 444.4 games experience since our last win. Compare this to the average age of GF teams since 2011 : Winner 26 years 5 months vs Loser 25 years 11 months.

We have to be realistic that our team have a way to go (grow) yet but we can also optimistic that we have some good young talent coming through.

To borrow from the 4th stanza of the 1914 poem...

For the Fallen (Swans)

They shall grow older, as we fans also grow old
Age shall not weary them, nor the media condemn.
After going down to the Suns and in our mourning
We will vilify the coach on Big Footy

Lol great post bungee.

I agree that there is so much that's beyond the coach's control atm that it's almost pointless to criticise Horse for anything that happens in any individual game in terms of game plans, selections etc. It's almost unbelievable how cursed we are this year. We were already going to struggle this year given we were one of the youngest sides around, but then the footy gods just decided oh, while we're at it, we're gonna **** you over by giving you the worst injury crisis in the comp! Enjoy!!

But in all seriousness, persistent issues that go beyond this year that are within Horse's control I think are fair game, and I don't think criticism counts as vilification.

 

[The King!]

It's pretty hard to win games with an average age of 23 8 months and just 64.5 games experience.

Our last win was at an average player age of 25 years and 84.7 games experience but our team seems to get younger with every game.

North 25yr 0 mth
Dogs 24yr 10 mth
Eagles 24yr 4mth
Tigers 24yr 2mth
Suns 23yr 8mths

In total, we've lost 29 years & 4 months and 444.4 games experience since our last win. Compare this to the average age of GF teams since 2011 : Winner 26 years 5 months vs Loser 25 years 11 months.

We have to be realistic that our team have a way to go (grow) yet but we can also optimistic that we have some good young talent coming through.

To borrow from the 4th stanza of the 1914 poem...

For the Fallen (Swans)

They shall grow older, as we fans also grow old
Age shall not weary them, nor the media condemn.
After going down to the Suns and in our mourning
We will vilify the coach on Big Footy

Lol

it is a shame the swans didn’t get any notice the list was getting younger, could have done something about it

 

[mtooler]

I think he has hewett in the role he can play and hewett does it well every week

aliir should try and develop the ruck fwd
Role imo

his defence is sub par but when he runs around free he is dangerous And Sinclair and co aren’t giving us anything tap wise anyway

Aliir was rated as one of the best, if not 2nd best, intercept marker not that long ago.

 

[caesar88]

Lol

it is a shame the swans didn’t get any notice the list was getting younger, could have done something about it

I think a lot of the things that have led to us being so young, the club didn't see coming. Whether they should've or not is another matter, but it's not like the club willingly put the list in this position.

- Jack, Grundy and Smith hitting a wall as soon as they hit 30, as opposed to enjoying their twilight years. (Fair miss)
- Hanners breaking down. (Fair miss, though partly self-inflicted)
- Buddy breaking down. (Entirely self-inficted)
- The likes of Reid, Rohan, Cunningham ie. senior players they were banking on coming along, never coming along (Fair miss, though partly self-inflicted)
- Trade ban (Fair miss)
- Loss of COLA (Fair miss)
- Unsuccessful trade attempts ie. Langdon, Moore, Daniher (Fair miss - can't fault us for trying)
- Wantaway Victorians ie. Jones, Mitchell, Nankervis etc (Fair miss, though partly self-inflicted in that we probably didn't get enough bang for our buck to make up for their loss)
- Some misjudged salary cap management (ahem, Tippett) (Entirely self-inflicted)

If you add that up, it's mostly been out of the club's control, but we certainly could've done more to prevent it along the way.

 

[Punts]

Dunno if anyone said that. Was a late pick. More like next jared crouch...

51 had the article

 

[The King!]

Aliir was rated as one of the best, if not 2nd best, intercept marker not that long ago.

Not sure where that ranking was but Yeah I know he is good at it when in from but that’s When he plays a free role in defence rather than taking a key tall one on one

 

[The King!]

I think a lot of the things that have led to us being so young, the club didn't see coming. Whether they should've or not is another matter, but it's not like the club willingly put the list in this position.

- Jack, Grundy and Smith hitting a wall as soon as they hit 30, as opposed to enjoying their twilight years. (Fair miss)
- Hanners breaking down. (Fair miss, though partly self-inflicted)
- Buddy breaking down. (Entirely self-inficted)
- The likes of Reid, Rohan, Cunningham ie. senior players they were banking on coming along, never coming along (Fair miss, though partly self-inflicted)
- Trade ban (Fair miss)
- Loss of COLA (Fair miss)
- Unsuccessful trade attempts ie. Langdon, Moore, Daniher (Fair miss - can't fault us for trying)
- Wantaway Victorians ie. Jones, Mitchell, Nankervis etc (Fair miss, though partly self-inflicted in that we probably didn't get enough bang for our buck to make up for their loss)
- Some misjudged salary cap management (ahem, Tippett) (Entirely self-inflicted)

If you add that up, it's mostly been out of the club's control, but we certainly could've done more to prevent it along the way.

You doing PR for the club this week?

 

[Citrus22]

We certainly seems to lack hardened players in that 23 - 28 age bracket, at that age you tend to have a player who has a fully developed game and is a consistent performer week to week.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

You doing PR for the club this week?

A really good summation.

The only area I think you're being a bit generous on is the wantaway Vics aspect. As has been demonstrated with Papley, sometimes you need to be a bit ruthless - in the case of Mitchell, Nank and Jones, the Swans were the nice guys & suffered as a result.

Also not sure about Hanner's breakdown being partly self-inflicted. It was a Dog bravely sliding into his planted leg in the '16 GF. Not sure you can do much in the face of such immense bravery.

 

[caesar88]

A really good summation.

The only area I think you're being a bit generous on is the wantaway Vics aspect. As has been demonstrated with Papley, sometimes you need to be a bit ruthless - in the case of Mitchell, Nank and Jones, the Swans were the nice guys & suffered as a result.

Also not sure about Hanner's breakdown being partly self-inflicted. It was a Dog bravely sliding into his planted leg in the '16 GF. Not sure you can do much in the face of such immense bravery.

Gonna assume you meant to quote my post, not Kingy's.

I think we should be ruthless when we need to be and when we have the right to be. We have the right to be ruthless with Papley because he asked for a trade despite having three years left to run on his contract. I'm not sure we had that right with say Jones or Mitchell who were out of contract. It's their right to leave having served out their contracts to that point.

I think Hanners breakdown was initially caused by natural injuries, but not helped, at all, by our playing him every week for two years, basically giving him no time to recover properly.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Gonna assume you meant to quote my post, not Kingy's.

I think we should be ruthless when we need to be and when we have the right to be. We have the right to be ruthless with Papley because he asked for a trade despite having three years left to run on his contract. I'm not sure we had that right with say Jones or Mitchell who were out of contract. It's their right to leave having served out their contracts to that point.

I think Hanners breakdown was initially caused by natural injuries, but not helped, at all, by our playing him every week for two years, basically giving him no time to recover properly.

Yep, I was indeed meaning to quote your post.

I really feel we undervalued Jones & that came through in the negotiation process. Pick 32 was unders - we could (and should) have done better.

Anyway, its a moot point now.

 

[mtooler]

Not sure where that ranking was but Yeah I know he is good at it when in from but that’s When he plays a free role in defence rather than taking a key tall one on one

Yeah when he was 3rd tall.

 

[Aut Vincere Aut Mori]

Our recruiting and list management has been particularly poor over the last five years. In the good times, our list managers have accepted the plaudits of the football world but need to come under scrutiny now. We have a slow, low skilled, and small list. The retirement of Grundy has left us desperately short in defense and lacking a big body in contests. We discarded Nankervis as a ruck option and opted to go with Naismith. Nankervis - two premiership medals, Nankervis - two games. We opted to keep Hannebery and discarded Mitchell - Mitchell a Brownlow and we then opted to let Hannebery go to St.Kilda. Membry and Zac Jones (one of the few players who were actually quick) we let go to St.Kilda. The players we have retained or recruited are just average players and will never be anything better than that. Who has elite speed? Who has elite skills? Who is tall? Our club has fallen for the belief in their own publicity about being able to 'find diamonds in the rough' - ie: recycling players from other clubs and being able to upskill low draft picks. The salary cap pressure that the recruitment of Franklin and Tippett has put on our ability to trade and draft is also an obvious problem. However, this is a problem of our own making and again a list management decision come back to bite us. Why recruit Clarke from NM ? Average player but fringe player at best.
We are clearly undersized and not just in the ruck. The ruck issue means we rarely get centre clearances and our backs are put under pressure immediately the siren goes. Parker and Kennedy have their best football behind them now and will retire in the next few years. Who are their replacements??
Aliir Aliir - coaching issue. How can someone who was so exciting in 2016 be a mere shell of the player he was four years ago? He has gone backwards in his play. Why was he dropped for the game against Richmond when we clearly needed height and a big body? Made no sense.
As for our style of play : V Richmond not attractive but lost by 8 points (three if you exclude the ridiculous deliberate goal in the first quarter). v Gold Coast a very attractive brand of football but we got smashed by 32 points. I think this speaks for itself.

 

[The King!]

Our recruiting and list management has been particularly poor over the last five years. In the good times, our list managers have accepted the plaudits of the football world but need to come under scrutiny now. We have a slow, low skilled, and small list. The retirement of Grundy has left us desperately short in defense and lacking a big body in contests. We discarded Nankervis as a ruck option and opted to go with Naismith. Nankervis - two premiership medals, Nankervis - two games. We opted to keep Hannebery and discarded Mitchell - Mitchell a Brownlow and we then opted to let Hannebery go to St.Kilda. Membry and Zac Jones (one of the few players who were actually quick) we let go to St.Kilda. The players we have retained or recruited are just average players and will never be anything better than that. Who has elite speed? Who has elite skills? Who is tall? Our club has fallen for the belief in their own publicity about being able to 'find diamonds in the rough' - ie: recycling players from other clubs and being able to upskill low draft picks. The salary cap pressure that the recruitment of Franklin and Tippett has put on our ability to trade and draft is also an obvious problem. However, this is a problem of our own making and again a list management decision come back to bite us. Why recruit Clarke from NM ? Average player but fringe player at best.
We are clearly undersized and not just in the ruck. The ruck issue means we rarely get centre clearances and our backs are put under pressure immediately the siren goes. Parker and Kennedy have their best football behind them now and will retire in the next few years. Who are their replacements??
Aliir Aliir - coaching issue. How can someone who was so exciting in 2016 be a mere shell of the player he was four years ago? He has gone backwards in his play. Why was he dropped for the game against Richmond when we clearly needed height and a big body? Made no sense.
As for our style of play : V Richmond not attractive but lost by 8 points (three if you exclude the ridiculous deliberate goal in the first quarter). v Gold Coast a very attractive brand of football but we got smashed by 32 points. I think this speaks for itself.

great post some fantastic points, welcome aboard

 

[Kummerspeck]

None of Mitchell, Jones, Membrey or Nankervis were "let go". All had contracts which they turned down and left for clubs who had *-all to offer for them.

It would have been nice to get more for Jones or Mitchell, but I'm yet to hear a realistic suggestion for how. If we'd let them go into the draft we wouldn't have gotten anything for them and people would be losing their mind over that.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

It would have been nice to get more for Jones or Mitchell, but I'm yet to hear a realistic suggestion for how. If we'd let them go into the draft we wouldn't have gotten anything for them and people would be losing their mind over that.

Didn't we trade Mitchell on day 1 or something? Seem to vaguely remember that happening. Why not wait a bit and see whether something else could be added. That said we shouldn't have let him go in the first place.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Didn't we trade Mitchell on day 1 or something? Seem to vaguely remember that happening. Why not wait a bit and see whether something else could be added.

Because the Hawks were also trading with the Suns who were asking for the Hawks' first rounder. The club waits, the first rounder goes to the Suns and there's even less value on offer.

That said we shouldn't have let him go in the first place.

We didn't. He had a contract in front of him which he refused.

 

[Jewelsbon]

Our recruiting and list management has been particularly poor over the last five years. In the good times, our list managers have accepted the plaudits of the football world but need to come under scrutiny now. We have a slow, low skilled, and small list. The retirement of Grundy has left us desperately short in defense and lacking a big body in contests. We discarded Nankervis as a ruck option and opted to go with Naismith. Nankervis - two premiership medals, Nankervis - two games. We opted to keep Hannebery and discarded Mitchell - Mitchell a Brownlow and we then opted to let Hannebery go to St.Kilda. Membry and Zac Jones (one of the few players who were actually quick) we let go to St.Kilda. The players we have retained or recruited are just average players and will never be anything better than that. Who has elite speed? Who has elite skills? Who is tall? Our club has fallen for the belief in their own publicity about being able to 'find diamonds in the rough' - ie: recycling players from other clubs and being able to upskill low draft picks. The salary cap pressure that the recruitment of Franklin and Tippett has put on our ability to trade and draft is also an obvious problem. However, this is a problem of our own making and again a list management decision come back to bite us. Why recruit Clarke from NM ? Average player but fringe player at best.
We are clearly undersized and not just in the ruck. The ruck issue means we rarely get centre clearances and our backs are put under pressure immediately the siren goes. Parker and Kennedy have their best football behind them now and will retire in the next few years. Who are their replacements??
Aliir Aliir - coaching issue. How can someone who was so exciting in 2016 be a mere shell of the player he was four years ago? He has gone backwards in his play. Why was he dropped for the game against Richmond when we clearly needed height and a big body? Made no sense.
As for our style of play : V Richmond not attractive but lost by 8 points (three if you exclude the ridiculous deliberate goal in the first quarter). v Gold Coast a very attractive brand of football but we got smashed by 32 points. I think this speaks for itself.

Great post, hindsight is a wonderful thing and makes us all experts.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Hey guys, sorry if it's been said somewhere already. How many people did you think were in the crowd on Saturday? Can't find an official tally anywhere.

 

[bungee]

Our recruiting and list management has been particularly poor over the last five years. In the good times, our list managers have accepted the plaudits of the football world but need to come under scrutiny now. We have a slow, low skilled, and small list. The retirement of Grundy has left us desperately short in defense and lacking a big body in contests. We discarded Nankervis as a ruck option and opted to go with Naismith. Nankervis - two premiership medals, Nankervis - two games. We opted to keep Hannebery and discarded Mitchell - Mitchell a Brownlow and we then opted to let Hannebery go to St.Kilda. Membry and Zac Jones (one of the few players who were actually quick) we let go to St.Kilda. The players we have retained or recruited are just average players and will never be anything better than that. Who has elite speed? Who has elite skills? Who is tall? Our club has fallen for the belief in their own publicity about being able to 'find diamonds in the rough' - ie: recycling players from other clubs and being able to upskill low draft picks. The salary cap pressure that the recruitment of Franklin and Tippett has put on our ability to trade and draft is also an obvious problem. However, this is a problem of our own making and again a list management decision come back to bite us. Why recruit Clarke from NM ? Average player but fringe player at best.
We are clearly undersized and not just in the ruck. The ruck issue means we rarely get centre clearances and our backs are put under pressure immediately the siren goes. Parker and Kennedy have their best football behind them now and will retire in the next few years. Who are their replacements??
Aliir Aliir - coaching issue. How can someone who was so exciting in 2016 be a mere shell of the player he was four years ago? He has gone backwards in his play. Why was he dropped for the game against Richmond when we clearly needed height and a big body? Made no sense.
As for our style of play : V Richmond not attractive but lost by 8 points (three if you exclude the ridiculous deliberate goal in the first quarter). v Gold Coast a very attractive brand of football but we got smashed by 32 points. I think this speaks for itself.

Welcome. Good points generally but I disagree on a couple. Firstly, the Buddy and Tippet trades were more than 5 years ago and have dogged us since. I'd argue Buddy was still value for money. We were also hampered by the AFL trade ban.

Yes we should have kept Nankers not Naismith but it's easy to be right in retrospect. Nanker is injured this year but could have easily been the injured one instead of Naismith. Injuries happen by chance.

We didn't discard Mitchell. He was getting full seasons here and was a required player but he went South for the big money. We couldn't match it.

Our line up has got generally faster over the last few years with greater focus on recruiting speed across the board. The younger players are generally faster but until they get more experience they will have fewer opportunities to use that speed.

Players like Clarke are cheap, ready made to fill gaps and we have often managed to turn such players into better players. We have always taken punts on players who didnt turn out as well as we'd hoped. That's the nature of diamonds in the rough. We remember the diamonds but forget how much rough we went through finding them. For every Craig Bolton we go through a lot of Henry Playfairs.

I agree Kennedy probably has only a few years left but Parker has plenty left. At 27 he's in his prime, at the age of the average Brownlow winner, so hardly long in the tooth. Seeing Florent and Rowbum improving at such a young age is encouraging. Other yound mids will follow.

We were lucky to trade Hanners out after he was struggling to play for us and sucking up plenty of salary cap. Hanners was a club champ and many of us were sad to lose him but we made the right move. Jones had always wanted to go home. A curse that targets non-Vic clubs. We made the right call with Papley, respecting his wishes but not at big cost to the club. It's a tough balance between pursuing the club's best interests and causing bad blood. Always putting the club first can demotivate the playing list, cause friction with individual players and put other players off coming here.

5-10 years ago we were a rising club with a maturing list. Players wanted to come here and our premiership window was open. We topped up our list with talent. We had COLA to offset the higher cost of living and we could trade freely. We often traded the few low draft picks we had for experienced players.

No club can stay up forever and we've been up for a very long time. We looked like we could cling on as a middle ranked club, as we did in the late 90s. Even as we turned over much of our list we remained competitive while we still had stars like Kennedy, Buddy, Reg, Smith, Macca who could fill in the gaps of our youth. Sadly injury took them out sooner than we hoped so we've pushed the rebuild even further.

I struggle to recall a time when we've had so much youth on our list. On the plus side we've blooded a huge amount of that youth, more than any club in the last few years. There is some real talent coming through and, of course, we finally get to see Ling in action this weekend. That boy has some speed.

This is a tough time for fans but anyone who was a fan pre-1995/96 would appreciate that things can change very quickly. Stay the course. Celebrate the positives. We will conquer, not die.