Autopsy Round 7, 2021: Hawks refuse to take the field

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Wesley2

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May 22, 2016
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I feel I'm fairly reasonable, I understand we can't just play kids, but there's a lot of value in mixing up some kids in a team with experienced players to learn.

Our defense stocks are quite limited due to injuries, but I'm a bit sick of Hartigans' brain fades, which outshine any positive things he does. He should still play when necessary but do we have any other talls to develop? Hartigan looks like Stewie Dew, plays like Stewie Dewn't.
 

Judd2Sewell

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But it isn't garbage. The raw stats literally prove it, there was a negligible difference.

Most of our inexperience was found in our forward line, especially the KPF's. But it was hardly their fault we lost the game. They never had a chance, and experienced three-peat players in Gunston and Breust struggled to have any sort of impact.

Hartigan, Hardwick, Frost, Impey and TOB are all experienced players.

Big Boy, Mitchell, Shiels, Phillips and Worpel (despite his age) are experienced players.

Our inexperienced sub-50 game (arbitrary number) players were:
CJ
Scrimshaw

Finn
Morrison
Cousins

Hanrahan
Moore
Kosi
Jeka
Lewis

Their inexperienced players included:
Coffield
Battle
Wilkie
Joyce

Byrnes
Bytel

King
Marshall

The main issue for us was quality around the ball. Obviously JOM and Wingard were missed, but even if they were playing we are still losing that match. And then the average age/experience goes up.
 

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Accipiter

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We had 6-8 players all hit the cliff at the exact same time when realistically, most expected them to last a bit so they could be phased out and the next crop develop.
Recruiting Mitchell, JOM, and Wingard was the right move to stem the bleeding, but they needed to settle. Now they've settled we have had most of defence retire, our wings retire, and our forwards begin to hit their end.
The top up was to try and pinch a flag before Clarko bowed out and then start again with a batton change to Sammy. The spanner in the works was the earlier than anticipated decline in the senior players, as well as the Covid / Hub thing. Plus the gamble of picking up the likes of Scully that didn't quite pay dividends. If all went to plan it may have paid off but it went the other way so here we are.
 

Brishawk

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But it isn't garbage. The raw stats literally prove it, there was a negligible difference.

Most of our inexperience was found in our forward line, especially the KPF's. But it was hardly their fault we lost the game. They never had a chance, and experienced three-peat players in Gunston and Breust struggled to have any sort of impact.

Hartigan, Hardwick, Frost, Impey and TOB are all experienced players.

Big Boy, Mitchell, Shiels, Phillips and Worpel (despite his age) are experienced players.

Our inexperienced sub-50 game (arbitrary number) players were:
CJ
Scrimshaw

Finn
Morrison
Cousins

Hanrahan
Moore
Kosi
Jeka
Lewis

Their inexperienced players included:
Coffield
Battle
Wilkie
Joyce

Byrnes
Bytel

King
Marshall

The main issue for us was quality around the ball. Obviously JOM and Wingard were missed, but even if they were playing we are still losing that match. And then the average age/experience goes up.
I’m not going to repeat myself. Posting averages to explain an age profile is illiterate nonsense.
 

Accipiter

Rookie
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Wow a lot of negative here, i am surprised by some Hawk fans shock that were shitty.

Kids got valuable experince individual and as a team. We did improve each quarter as we settled.

Finn got better as the game went on and worked his way into the contest. Needs a few more games with the senior team.

Jeka continued to lead despite being out numbered or overlooked by team mates.

Kosi was impressive, his work rate was good.

Worpel is finding some touch.

We need to continue down this track to depth and who stays for 2022.

Back youth in over fringe players
Jeka / Obrien
Maginess / Howe
Downie / Phillips
Barras / Hartigan

Greaves, Brockman, Bramble, Reeves and Pepper need a few games as well at some stage in 2022.

Would love for us to look for the next poppy and stratton in the mid season draft. Sick of recycled AFL players who have failed at other clubs.
Couldn't agree more ....
 

Larry Barnsworth

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Mar 11, 2018
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I thought there was a bit of "Josh Bruce kicking 10" about Zac Jones game.

There's a bit of footage towards the end of the match of our bench. On it were Shiels, O'Brien and Gunston. Gunston was covering his mouth with a cloth.

Their eyes were all very different. Gunston looked ropeable. Like properly hacked off.
 

Noel Gallagher

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Worpel needs to play as one of our first choice rovers, if that means trading Mitchell out then so be it
This purely a gut feel only but I can’t shake the feeling that Worpel will eventually request a trade to Geelong. They do rate him and I’ve heard they see him as a natural replacement for Selwood. Comes from a large family in 20 mins out of Geelong so the go home factor is real (potentially)
 

Mitchell Madness

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This purely a gut feel only but I can’t shake the feeling that Worpel will eventually request a trade to Geelong. They do rate him and I’ve heard they see him as a natural replacement for Selwood. Comes from a large family in 20 mins out of Geelong so the go home factor is real (potentially)
3 first rounders
 

toomanysquibs

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This purely a gut feel only but I can’t shake the feeling that Worpel will eventually request a trade to Geelong. They do rate him and I’ve heard they see him as a natural replacement for Selwood. Comes from a large family in 20 mins out of Geelong so the go home factor is real (potentially)
I hear you, but a 90 minute drive doesn’t really count as a go home factor. It’s not a fun drive, but thousands do that trip twice a day just to go to work.

I feel like we can keep him if we want to, as long as he stays happy.
 

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savagelunchbox

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In the past when we've played a Brad Hill's Freo or St Kilda, we were quick to apply physical pressure to him and get in his ear about how soft he is before making him do defensive things.

Where was that yesterday after he started tearing us apart off the half back.

No tough guys in the leadership commanding the troops to do this as they're all nice guys, and the coaches seemed bereft of any opposition scouting and analysis.
 

VandoHawk

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Oct 2, 2014
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In the past when we've played a Brad Hill's Freo or St Kilda, we were quick to apply physical pressure to him and get in his ear about how soft he is before making him do defensive things.

Where was that yesterday after he started tearing us apart off the half back.

No tough guys in the leadership commanding the troops to do this as they're all nice guys, and the coaches seemed bereft of any opposition scouting and analysis.
JOM & Worps are our only leaders with any mongrel. JOM wasn’t out there and Worpel is a fourth year player. The rest of the group – McEvoy, Mitchell, Gunston & Sheils – don’t have that aggression.
 

Nick the Pig

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absolutely. Im still on the fence with Lewis and the thing is you dont see leading patterns, what forwards actually do. You see defenders zone off ect. but the forward craft nowdays is a thankless job. Lewis to me looks like hes not a natural forward but i mean thats me. I've never seen him live (Im out west) so im not sure what work hes doing, blocking ect.
Small sample size seeing our young tall forwards but at this stage Lewis worries me most of the 3.

Not sure he has enough speed on the lead to get good separation. And he has the mobility of a ruckman. If he could provide the option to be a genuine ruck forward this could work but at the moment he doesn't seem to have the agreesion or enough of a ruck craft.

Being a big lump that can crash a pack is one thing but these days you need more. Big forward pack marks are so infrequent that you can't be a liability when the ball hits the deck.
 
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Lickmesocks

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In this game our effort was poor.
100%. We had a Barry Crocker. We kicked soft goals when the game was over and done. We didn’t compete, chase tackle etc etc when the heat was on. We didn’t turn up for this game.

We can talk about players under 30 games or whatever you want to help spin a case but if you don’t bring the effort and desire for the start of a game you are going to cop a beating. Saints should of won by 100+
 

Mercy Seat

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No it wasn't.

Anyway, say we played Burgoyne, JOM and Wingard and lost by a more respectable 5 goals, which seems realistic. What then would the excuse be?
I’m not sure what you’re hunting for here. Clarko to come out and say publicly our list is rubbish? Accept culpability or slam the playing group and say we are underperforming?

I think we all can agree that our list has massive holes in it and is a work in progress. The club clearly knows this. What Clarko says publicly and what he says to the group and the club internally aren’t always one and the same and there will always be reasons for that. That applies to every coach.
 

Brishawk

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No it wasn't.

Anyway, say we played Burgoyne, JOM and Wingard and lost by a more respectable 5 goals, which seems realistic. What then would the excuse be?
Who is making excuses? I’m not trying to position our list at the same point as the saints or any other list. There is a clear an obvious issue with our list, which I pointed out above, and it has nothing to do with average age or howling about a loss when we are a bottom four team missing several of our best players. 🤦‍♂️
 

Judd2Sewell

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I’m not sure what you’re hunting for here. Clarko to come out and say publicly our list is rubbish? Accept culpability or slam the playing group and say we are underperforming?

I think we all can agree that our list has massive holes in it and is a work in progress. The club clearly knows this. What Clarko says publicly and what he says to the group and the club internally aren’t always one and the same and there will always be reasons for that. That applies to every coach.
I'm not hunting for anything. Just trying to discuss the use of our inexperience as an excuse for the loss, is all.

Do you believe that inexperience was a reason for the loss? I think it runs much deeper than that.
 

Judd2Sewell

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Who is making excuses? I’m not trying to position our list at the same point as the saints or any other list. There is a clear an obvious issue with our list, which I pointed out above, and it has nothing to do with average age or howling about a loss when we are a bottom four team missing several of our best players. 🤦‍♂️
Look I'm not howling about the loss. I thought we'd lose the game, though the way in which we lost was obviously the disappointing thing.

I agree completely that the issues aren't to do with the average age or inexperience of our list. Other teams are playing a much better brand of football with lists that are comparable in age and experience, some elare even younger and less experienced. In that regard we are saying the same thing.
 

Siri

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This purely a gut feel only but I can’t shake the feeling that Worpel will eventually request a trade to Geelong. They do rate him and I’ve heard they see him as a natural replacement for Selwood. Comes from a large family in 20 mins out of Geelong so the go home factor is real (potentially)
So long as we win the trade and improve our squad, you'd have to entertain it!
 

darthmann

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I'm not hunting for anything. Just trying to discuss the use of our inexperience as an excuse for the loss, is all.

Do you believe that inexperience was a reason for the loss? I think it runs much deeper than that.

their list is better than us and they played better than us which lead to us losing — that is also technically an excuse

we were flat, didn't put on any pressure and our effort was dreadful. is that not too an excuse?

i know what you're saying but simply discussing reasons for losing isn't some excuse to throw away any deficiencies in our list, gameplan or performance. its just that, discussion
 

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