Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[puntking]

Melbourne was 9 years prelim to prelim in their embarrassing rebuild. We are 14 years since we were seriously in line for a crack at a flag and look another 5 years off building a list for it. And that's if everything we do is a win. A few more blown first round picks and we are in trouble.

And Melb did the right thing and got Paul Roos to get the right people in from the top same as what is happening at the Saints now

 

[Yawkey way]

Melbourne was 9 years prelim to prelim in their embarrassing rebuild. We are 14 years since we were seriously in line for a crack at a flag and look another 5 years off building a list for it. And that's if everything we do is a win. A few more blown first round picks and we are in trouble.

I think we have a lot more than we’re getting credit for and I actually have some faith in our drafting at present. Add a bag of cash to that and I’m very confident we’re on the right track.

I get worried when teams talk crap and have no idea where their list really sits. All that we’re top 4 and going challenge was delusional and frightening. We haven’t sat on our hands, we’ve drafted well, moved some on, traded and pitched to others. We only need to keep that going and get 1 big free agent over the line and the sun will come out again.

Melbourne were an absolute shambles as we have been and that’s why teams stay trapped on the bottom.

 

[phantom13]

Give it time gringo, this year had to happen let’s make the most of it a get a high pick mid.

“Give it time” should probably replace “fortius quo fidelius” as our club motto at this point.

 

[Yawkey way]

I think this whole “holes in the lost” thing is a bit overstated.

We all agree their midfield is stacked. Their forward line has Larkey, Zurhaar, Curtis and Ford plus some floating role players. Their backline has Logue, Combden, Corr and Goater.

Their issue is that all their top end players are injured or young.

Their other issue will be keeping everyone together.

Larkey is a very good player the rest are bit players or trash bin picks. Corr had a game on a listless stupid king who locked up with him. I think if Howard tried that he’d have given away 5 goals but that’s another story. Zurharr is a decent player but will probably walk, maybe home to WA.

 

[phantom13]

Larkey is a very good player the rest are bit players or trash bin picks. Corr had a game on a listless stupid king who locked up with him. I think if Howard tried that he’d have given away 5 goals but that’s another story. Zurharr is a decent player but will probably walk, maybe home to WA.

Nah mate. Logue is pretty handy, Combden has all the athletic gifts of Alex Rance he’s just been injured (granted his is based on potential but it’s there). Corr playing as a 3rd tall defender is very very handy (he just should be getting spanked by the likes of King).

Larkey is a player you can build around, the rest of the forwards were handy in the games I’ve seen of them but they don’t get much exposure or opportunity. Curtis s averaging 1.7 goals a game in a season where they would be getting about 8 clean inside 50s a game.

 

[phantom13]

No he didn't, clearly he's struggling and possibly still clearly dealing with personal issues so I'd go easy on him.

The 23 year old Max though was selected with our very valuable 4DP to come in and be star of the competition, a player we can build a team around, he's got talent, no question of that, but what is totally inexcusable is how he's refusing to be a team player without ball in hand. He's fast become a bruise free player, he refuses to lead and crash packs, he constantly sits out the back and jumps from behind refusing to use his body in any other way. Also unforgivable is watching him watch a player who is only 1m in front of him run off him and refusing to chase or put on any pressure on the opposition, and all of this from a bloke that is supposed to be an athletic specimen nicknamed Winx.

I thought I’d gone hard on Max but this is next level

 

[Murraj1966]

For those who want to hate on Ross answer me this

Would we be winning the flag with Fly or Voss or Hinkley or Longmire at the helm? If you think that they’d be any better than Ross is now you’ve got rocks in your head.

The list has massive holes in critical areas of the field and unfortunately its showing this year now that we’ve lost our glacier boys in Steele Crouch Ross Marshall attending every centre bounce

 

[thekizzler]

Blaming Ross lol you all are a joke, ask rooey or Monty what they think of RTB! He is no idiot and he knows what needs to be done and will get it done, he is 1 1/2 years into 4 year minimum deal so buckle up, can’t wait for the melts come end of year

I'm not at the stage of blaming Ross yet.

I'm prepared to give him a little more time.

But it's not ridiculous for people to start questioning things? Not at all.

I hope this isn't the case but coaches eventually become obsolete over their journey too. I'm not suggesting this is Ross yet.

But the recent sample from the end of his Fremantle days and his second stint at St Kilda aside from the hot start last season is not exciting.

Things need to change. Not immediately but soon. And it's not outrageous to suggest they might not.

 

[Minga]

 

[ScrappyDo]

We've had a leadership vacuum since Rooey & Joey left the club...and that's because they didn't trust anyone beneath them. That's 7 years ago, but we've been a middling to hopeless team since 2011. Mediocrity has been the standard throughout much of guys like Steele, Ross, Membrey's, Webster, and Sinc's career. Mediocre facilities, mediocre coaches, mediocre board. Now, they're all solid to very good players, but that's our senior core and much of our leadership group. Mediocrity is a state of mind, but it's also environmental, it gets a pass...and a few can still be very good within those boundaries, but it never amounts to either leadership or excellence.
The worst thing about mediocrity though is that its corruptive and can damage the energy of what youth and talent brings. It's like a fly hitting it's head upon a glass ceiling hoping to break through to the sky. If you aren't allowed to progress, you will be stifled, lose energy, slow down, and settle.
I think what we're seeing now is a level of professionalism in the coaching and management levels which is showing up the senior and leadership core for what it is. Good, but not great and not perhaps not able to aim higher...not because they can't, but because they simply don't know how.
It could be teething problems i.e. 2nd year blues and a precessional wobble that is necessary. Or it could be that the players don't want the glass ceiling removed because it might mean that the game has passed them by, and they'll have to admit that psychologically they're simply not up to the task.
Something tells me that this is the true year of exploration.
It's going to be an interesting off season, that's for sure.

Our age and experience demographic says we should be about where we are, so we overachieved last year.
Excluding the subs we had 3 players with single digit disposal yesterday, the Hawks had 1.
Clearly RTB is trying to patch holes but it's not working.
Sinclair playing mid robs our defence, whist we're missing both of Snags and Butts, playing Hastie as a pressure forward.
But that's not to excuse the coaching entirely. As pointed out prior we had a dozen or more entries from CBA dump kicks got straight to the oppo with not a Saints forward in sight. Why do we leave our CHF zone empty for the oppo to own? Why can't our forwards play in front like everyone else?
Generally l think our weaknesses are pretty clear and oppo coaches are able to exploit them. Essentially we've been worked out, but if we can't win clearances and learn to take advantage when we do then we'll be stuck in the mud till it changes..

 

[Cairnsman]

I thought I’d gone hard on Max but this is next level

It's time.

He's run out of wriggle room.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Not sure Batts would like moving forward again permanently but he's exactly what we need.
Membrey out, Batts forward, Cordy in.
Bonner out even though he was ok, Ari in.
Hastie out, Collard in.
Ross out, Dow in, Hugo forward.

Hayes, King, Hugo
Collard, Batts, Henry
Hill, Marshall, Wood
Windy, Steele, Dow
NWM, Cordy, Sincs
Wilkie, Doogs, Jweb

Ari, Wilson, Stocker, Owens
Sub: Pato/Ross/Byrnes

Still not real flash but might offer some more offensive punch.

Redux version 2

Hayes, King, Hugo
Collard, Batts, Henry
Hill, Campbell, Wood
Windy, Seele, Dow
NWM, Marshall, Sincs
Wilkie, Doogs, Jweb

Ari, Wilson, Stocker, Owens
Sub: Pato/Byrnes

 

[snails13]

Never actually seen 21 year old teenagers ever…

My cousin is 60 and only had 15 proper birthdays,is that counted

 

[thekizzler]

Did membrey get any tackles?

It's not a pissing contest, champ.

Membrey has the same problem as King.

Except he is not the bloke we hope is moving into the prime of his career and kicking 60 goals a season.

I don't even expect King to lay a tackle every match but I expect him to run/chase like his life depends out. Fight like crazy to win the ball at ground level.

What scares me is that his effort is going backwards. He is showing less and less intent every season.

Either he is injured or he is being weak. No other answer for it.

 

[jh38]

It's not a pissing contest, champ.

Membrey has the same problem as King.

Except he is not the bloke we hope is moving into the prime of his career and kicking 60 goals a season.

I don't even expect King to lay a tackle every match but I expect him to run/chase like his life depends out. Fight like crazy to win the ball at ground level.

What scares me is that his effort is going backwards. He is showing less and less intent every season.

Either he is injured or he is being weak. No other answer for it.

At least Membrey actually goes up the ground and gets the ball. King just sits in the goal square and doesn't move for the entire game.

 

[Cairnsman]

Redux version 2

Hayes, King, Hugo
Collard, Batts, Henry
Hill, Campbell, Wood
Windy, Seele, Dow
NWM, Marshall, Sincs
Wilkie, Doogs, Jweb

Ari, Wilson, Stocker, Owens
Sub: Pato/Byrnes

I think it would be hard to Justify playing Campbell now there has been a commitment to do a full rebuild and bring in all of the kids we have in such a short period of time in pursuit of rebuilding for the future. I think Campbells selection would draw the harshest of criticism from the media and pundits with regards to sending a confusing message about what direction is the club headed in.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

I think any other coach would have seen Owens contested work early on and sat him in the middle from day one.

 

[Sully111]

I think any other coach would have seen Owens contested work early on and sat him in the middle from day one.

PREACH!

 

[thekizzler]

At least Membrey actually goes up the ground and gets the ball. King just sits in the goal square and doesn't move for the entire game.

Members has been a great servant. Love him to bits.

But he is either horribly out of form and needs to be dropped. Or he is finished at AFL level.

Hopefully the first one.

I believe Caminiti has potential and should be in for Membrey soon.

Hammer has played 23 games. We need to persist with him and develop him like Freo have done with Josh Treacy. They persisted despite Treacy not getting much of it because there were signs. The Dockers are getting rewarded for that now as he approaches game 50.

 

[Yawkey way]

Nah mate. Logue is pretty handy, Combden has all the athletic gifts of Alex Rance he’s just been injured (granted his is based on potential but it’s there). Corr playing as a 3rd tall defender is very very handy (he just should be getting spanked by the likes of King).

Larkey is a player you can build around, the rest of the forwards were handy in the games I’ve seen of them but they don’t get much exposure or opportunity. Curtis s averaging 1.7 goals a game in a season where they would be getting about 8 clean inside 50s a game.

We all see different things but Corr for example turns 30 this month so what’s he got left two years maybe ?. Logue was a bit player at the dockers who should be coming into his prime but is really not quite it as a key, a bit short and a bit slow imo. Comben I’ll give you on potential the others are just players. I’m not sold on some of their high mid picks for that matter, yeah they have a few rippers the rest are still maybe they make it and are quality maybe they don’t, maybe they move on for opportunity.

North need to figure out how they don’t become GC where every year you bleed players and in return wind up continually drafting youth without ever moving forward. I’ll take our list and our position over there’s everyday of the week. Also the GC approach will Implode when Tassie enter the comp. High draft picks just evaporate and they will still be having players picked off year in year out.

 

[MordySaint]

Was at the game. Here are my takes.

Beautiful day in Launceston after some early rain, ground was in great shape with no wind to speak of.

There were more Saints than Hawks Supporters at the game, Ree Smith from the Tasmanian Saints supporters group does a great job

We were flat from the start, the pre game drills were poor compared to a a well drilled Hawthorn

RTB was out coached, the way Hawthorn moved the ball from defence into attack was plain embarrassing

We have no small forwards and it was completely evident. If goals weren’t from King, Battle or Membrey… then they weren’t coming. Critical mistakes under pressure meant we never looked like scoring even from constant forward entries

King has no sense of ball movement whatsoever. Maybe needs to be moved to defence to learn about ball flight and positioning.

NAS brought the stadium to a standstill in the second quarter. For a fleeting moment I thought I was watching Nicky Winmar again

Some poor selections, Henry wasn’t ready and we missed Pou’s forward craft

Not all negative, Battle can play anywhere and I thought Windhager was strong

Hawthorn lead all day and sometimes very comfortably. Scoreboard flattered us, stats also flattered us. Constant switching of play did nothing other than inflate the stats as we couldn’t win important one on ones.

Stats lie, we were beaten resoundingly.

 

[snails13]

Blaming Ross lol you all are a joke, ask rooey or Monty what they think of RTB! He is no idiot and he knows what needs to be done and will get it done, he is 1 1/2 years into 4 year minimum deal so buckle up, can’t wait for the melts come end of year

No he isn't an idiot and he very well knows that
we need to get good mids to come into to our system and finishing in our current position should allow us to do just that .

 

[phantom13]

I'm not at the stage of blaming Ross yet.

I'm prepared to give him a little more time.

But it's not ridiculous for people to start questioning things? Not at all.

I hope this isn't the case but coaches eventually become obsolete over their journey too. I'm not suggesting this is Ross yet.

But the recent sample from the end of his Fremantle days and his second stint at St Kilda aside from the hot start last season is not exciting.

Things need to change. Not immediately but soon. And it's not outrageous to suggest they might not.

Good post.

I think any criticism of Ross is met with empassioned defence, hell last week there were people suggesting that even if we didn’t win a game from now until mid next season he should still see out his contract.

It is absolutely possible to say Ross was the best available coach but still have concerns about what he’s doing. I also think it’s fair to be concerned that we’re obviously rebuilding and he’s not done that and his previous stints seemed to wrap up when those teams hit rebuild status (which obviously was for a stack of different reasons, not just that he’s not good at it).

We all mentioned that Ross v2 (or 3) seemed to have modernized his game and coaching style. I’ve got some concerns that both those things were a false dawn. The footy we’re seeing now is VERY much old Ross and when pressure comes people tend to revert to type. Will the pressure that’s coming mean we get cranky control freak Ross back? Time will tell but howling down everyone flagging some issue with “wait and see, Ross knows” is just silly.

 

[SteeleSaints]

No matter how you look at it there is no feasible way Lyon gave the team the best chance of winning yesterday.

Lets start with our really poor matchups in defence. We had Battle playing on Moore and Wilkie also playing on smalls. Then we have a collection of small defenders most of whom cant shut down an opponent or defend. Starting Paton as a sub behind Hastie etc was again another shocking decision given the Hawks set ups.

Then starting Seb Ross in the middle is as good as flying a white flag. WTF hasnt he progressed Owens into the midfield it should have been happening all year.
Why not try Stocker in there?
Why not give Garcia a run in there?

Next is our ridiculously slow switching of play which has to be the worst executed ball movement in the comp. We go backwards sidewards across the ground on multiple occasions and 95% of the time we progress the ball NO further than the wing that the switching started on. Its like watching a boxer shadow boxing thinking they are landing killer blows its comical.

Finally there is the completely dysfunctional forward line. Not once did I see any of our forwards blocking for a team mate. As soon as Battle and Wood were moved forward they had an impact - why does it take 3/4 of footy before he makes those moves.

If anyone cant see that the above problems are not caused by coaching they are not being realistic.

 

[gringo2011]

No hissy fit here, just reality.

We’re not winning games whilst making sure Riley Bonner and co keep getting games so really we’re not doing either thing.

Great progress.

Bonner has been okay imo. Had one shocker game. The biggest issue is that he’s probably 5th or 6th in our B and F right now and he was a delisted s**t truck from a middling side. We really lack top end but also mid career depth players and guys on the cusp of stepping up to be the core in that 22 to 25 year old bracket.