Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[Miha]

My kidney stone last year was more enjoyable than Saint Kilda

 

[MrFoster]

The only midfields worse on paper than ours off the top of my head is West Coasts and Richmonds. And I’m not even sure theirs is strictly worse. Blaming Marshall, one of our few actually good players, is definitely a take. He’s not a tap ruck the same way Ryder was but that isn’t the only thing that makes a ruckman quality, McEvoy was rather similar in that regard and so is Tim English.

As for dump kicks, half our side does it and has for a long time. It is either a leftover from doing it for so long or Ross still actively encourages it as part of our game plan as well. Which wouldn’t shock me thinking back to past Ross teams.

West Coast has Kelly, Gaff, Yeo and Reid, Hewett, Gibney coming through. Their kids are all genuine mids, we have 1 in windhager, Owens and Philipou are hybrid who we hope will become mids, we’ve all watched this before, cue experiments like Billings, Clark, Coffield, Mckenzie..

 

[Miha]

Had some Pies supporters over last night and they were saying Lyon is like the last 2 years of Buckley where everything is around defending. It's fine if you are getting rewarded but a dour game plan without wins is extremely demotivating and eventually effort drops away.

Having Pie supporters over is your biggest issue this week

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Seriously I think the only time you'll ever be happy with the team is when it comprises 23 AA's.

1.9 goals a game puts him pretty much at the top end of small forward outputs for the league this year.

Why would anyone be happy with this team?

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Jack Higgins - 1.9 goals a game this season, 2nd highest total goal scorer for the team behind Membrey.

Which looks great but like all of our other forwards he doesn't hold the ball inside 50 or work hard enough without the ball.

Aliir Aliir may beg to differ.

 

[gringo2011]

Owens to me looks like a pure midfielder forward. Bursts in the middle but primarily playing forward as a crash and bash type. His development looks to have slowed but it might not necessarily be linear for him.

I think his best footy has been winning one on ones against an opponent so gets shoved forward because no-one else is any good at it. Perhaps they think that he's not as effective at clearance work? You hope that they see him at least being a part time mid though. In his first game he burst out of the middle like a train and delivered it forward. Looked like the Bont.

 

[The Cobra]

Are nearly at the stage of trying Nas on the ball. It’s what the hawks did with Silk and we desperately need some better delivery into the 50.

Less Steele Marshall, Ross and windy inside 50s and more nas Sincs inside 50s.

I’d love to the competition scoring breakdown from

Rebound 50s (intercepts)
Stoppages clearances
Centre clearances
Turnovers.

Defensively we’re fine. So why can’t we score.

System , personal , mids forwards what is it? We are missing out smalls no doubt.

Smalls - I like Garcia & are confident he will be a good long term player for us but no X factor. Not saying he can’t continue to play the small pressure forward role BUT

I think a half decent VFL game from Collard & let’s roll the dice. He isn’t physically ready & lacks tackle pressure but is highly skilled by foot and just knows where the goals are. Only needs 6 touches & could score 3 goals.

 

[MrFoster]

No he didn't, clearly he's struggling and possibly still clearly dealing with personal issues so I'd go easy on him.

The 23 year old Max though was selected with our very valuable 4DP to come in and be star of the competition, a player we can build a team around, he's got talent, no question of that, but what is totally inexcusable is how he's refusing to be a team player without ball in hand. He's fast become a bruise free player, he refuses to lead and crash packs, he constantly sits out the back and jumps from behind refusing to use his body in any other way. Also unforgivable is watching him watch a player who is only 1m in front of him run off him and refusing to chase or put on any pressure on the opposition, and all of this from a bloke that is supposed to be an athletic specimen nicknamed Winx.

I can guarantee you if we had selected Rozee instead of King, we would have turned Rozee into a Billings.. imagine Rozee playing under Richo and Ratten, having to run around all game like headless chooks and just instructed to kick down the line when you do get the ball…

 

[TheNewEnsign]

I thought we really missed Snags yesterday. The ball went to ground a lot in our f50 but we could never seem to capitalise on it or have a player in the right spot.

 

[MrFoster]

I think his best footy has been winning one on ones against an opponent so gets shoved forward because no-one else is any good at it. Perhaps they think that he's not as effective at clearance work? You hope that they see him at least being a part time mid though. In his first game he burst out of the middle like a train and delivered it forward. Looked like the Bont.

Owens is not a natural mid.. he even said himself. He is a forward then played on the wing in his last 1-2 years under 18s, inside mids needs to be clean (at least handball) has composure and doesn’t fumble. Owens doesn’t have that, in fact, no one from our team has this one touch ability (apart from Dow).. even Steele struggles.. that’s why i would seriously look at replacing Marshall, add a genuine tap ruckman, use Dow, Crouch, Steele plus Windhager, ask Owens to trial in there.. when everyone in your midfield fumbles, there is little chance for you to cleanly handle the ball too

 

[jh38]

Members has been a great servant. Love him to bits.

But he is either horribly out of form and needs to be dropped. Or he is finished at AFL level.

Hopefully the first one.

I believe Caminiti has potential and should be in for Membrey soon.

Hammer has played 23 games. We need to persist with him and develop him like Freo have done with Josh Treacy. They persisted despite Treacy not getting much of it because there were signs. The Dockers are getting rewarded for that now as he approaches game 50.

Caminiti gives you a goal and a half a game, and he'll crash a pack. None of our other forwards are doing that at the moment.

As it stands, he offers more than King and I'd honestly rather see him play because at least he has a crack.

 

[saintron]

Seen Brett Ratten

Brett Ratten

Age

52

Ht

184cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.4

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

10.3

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

3.0

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.4

5star

K

13.8

5star

HB

12.6

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

1.6

4star

having a good laugh at the saints lol lol wonder why

 

[MrFoster]

Was at the game. Here are my takes.

Beautiful day in Launceston after some early rain, ground was in great shape with no wind to speak of.

There were more Saints than Hawks Supporters at the game, Ree Smith from the Tasmanian Saints supporters group does a great job

We were flat from the start, the pre game drills were poor compared to a a well drilled Hawthorn

RTB was out coached, the way Hawthorn moved the ball from defence into attack was plain embarrassing

We have no small forwards and it was completely evident. If goals weren’t from King, Battle or Membrey… then they weren’t coming. Critical mistakes under pressure meant we never looked like scoring even from constant forward entries

King has no sense of ball movement whatsoever. Maybe needs to be moved to defence to learn about ball flight and positioning.

NAS brought the stadium to a standstill in the second quarter. For a fleeting moment I thought I was watching Nicky Winmar again

Some poor selections, Henry wasn’t ready and we missed Pou’s forward craft

Not all negative, Battle can play anywhere and I thought Windhager was strong

Hawthorn lead all day and sometimes very comfortably. Scoreboard flattered us, stats also flattered us. Constant switching of play did nothing other than inflate the stats as we couldn’t win important one on ones.

Stats lie, we were beaten resoundingly.

We don’t win many contests, that’s clear.. for 10 years, Richo/Ratten tried to send hf to help mids and backline to clog up space and help to win the ball back.. when we do get the ball, kick it down the line so we don’t turn it over quickly.. (irony is the ball often gets turned over anyway)

The end result is a team who don’t know how to take the game on, don’t trust their skills and can only play the safe kick/mark or long bomb game plan.. We wanted to get away from the effort only / poorly skilled team..

The key is to get a genuine ruck + 2 to 3 pure ball winning mids (to add to Steele, Crouch) because the rest are just making up numbers.

 

[EddieMurphy]

What a bunch of hot takes in this thread

We're 3-6 after a tough fixture and losing 5 games by 10 points or less

After reading some of these posts you'd think we were getting belted every week

As bad as the first 9 weeks have been, it's got nothing on the first 10 weeks of 2021. So if people are criticising Lyon for a crappy 2nd year so far, I'd suggest his 2nd year's going better than his predecessor's at the same point.

Nothing to see here, move along? All tracking nicely?

 

[PJays]

Let's all take a deep breath.

Next week is the Ross Lyon cup. Two clubs who haven't won a flag in forever but Lyon got them very close.

I'm tipping a rebound win.

The following week we play Melbourne at the MCG. Although we'll start heavy underdogs, we're a chance. We've won 5 of 8 at the MCG dating back to the beginning of 2021. It's a ground that suits our rebound run off turnovers, and players like Sinclair, Hill, NWM and Henry.

Win those and suddenly it's 5-6 with loads of Marvel games on the run home, and things are looking alright.

Lose both then its 3-8 and I'll agree with those arguing to play more kids and treat this year mostly as preparation for 2025.

 

[MrFoster]

No matter how you look at it there is no feasible way Lyon gave the team the best chance of winning yesterday.

Lets start with our really poor matchups in defence. We had Battle playing on Moore and Wilkie also playing on smalls. Then we have a collection of small defenders most of whom cant shut down an opponent or defend. Starting Paton as a sub behind Hastie etc was again another shocking decision given the Hawks set ups.

Then starting Seb Ross in the middle is as good as flying a white flag. WTF hasnt he progressed Owens into the midfield it should have been happening all year.
Why not try Stocker in there?
Why not give Garcia a run in there?

Next is our ridiculously slow switching of play which has to be the worst executed ball movement in the comp. We go backwards sidewards across the ground on multiple occasions and 95% of the time we progress the ball NO further than the wing that the switching started on. Its like watching a boxer shadow boxing thinking they are landing killer blows its comical.

Finally there is the completely dysfunctional forward line. Not once did I see any of our forwards blocking for a team mate. As soon as Battle and Wood were moved forward they had an impact - why does it take 3/4 of footy before he makes those moves.

If anyone cant see that the above problems are not caused by coaching they are not being realistic.

We play too safe.. same as Richo/Ratten days..

We never kick to 1-1 contest purposely (to advantage of a teammate).. because we don’t want to stuff it up.. instead we try to switch the ball backwards and side ways (called windscreen wiping in soccer) needlessly.. we never back our skills and take a risk.. the running bit was only running hard to create a free man for spotting an easy 20 metre kick.. slow and relies on luck (opposition slow to pick up the man)

The whole game plan needs to be looked at. I for one rather see us playing attractive football but lose than this defensive crap.

 

[austinnn]

Let's all take a deep breath.

Next week is the Ross Lyon cup. Two clubs who haven't won a flag in forever but Lyon got them very close.

I'm tipping a rebound win.

The following week we play Melbourne at the MCG. Although we'll start heavy underdogs, we're a chance. We've won 5 of 8 at the MCG dating back to the beginning of 2021. It's a ground that suits our rebound run off turnovers, and players like Sinclair, Hill, NWM and Henry.

Win those and suddenly it's 5-6 with loads of Marvel games on the run home, and things are looking alright.

Lose both then its 3-8 and I'll agree with those arguing to play more kids and treat this year purely as preparation for 2025.

Don't see us winning much at the moment. We are a mess.

Who knows what the circuit breaker will be, but our leaders are pretty uninspiring and we're totally unsettled.

 

[PJays]

Don't see us winning much at the moment. We are a mess.

Things change massively week to week

Who would've thought the team who dismantled Collingwood on the MCG would lose to Hawthorn missing Sicily and Lewis? But it happened.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I put this up in Sully's awesome thread on the main board. Maybe there's some perspective for StKilda supporters.

As a Melbourne supporter what do you think about viewing StKilda's situation as equivalent to when Roos was brought in to straighten up your club? Piss-takes aside, Saints supporters are fairly aware of how bad standards have been for the last decade and the correction of that seems to be why most are supportive of Lyon's 2nd tenure.
In the Roos years you finished 17th, 13th and 11th, then 17th again in 2019 and it's undeniable those years and some good drafting set up your premiership, but it took 8 years from when Roos arrived until the pay-off.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

So Fremantle next week so in all likelihood we get flogged.
How about putting the game plan away for the mids and fwds for a bit and see how free licence looks.
We’ve got nothing to lose.
Collard would thrive.
Ross needs to be omitted.
Hastie not doing much.
Not sure bringing Jones back in will help much.
Dunno where Crazy Hayesy sits after being subbed. Second game blues.
Hopefully Pooey Collard and Keeler have blinders
Today.

 

[Cairnsman]

The last coach who got serious about "rebuild" got the flick when he dared mention it.

That could explain why the Real Estate Salesman sells us the "Dual Narrative"

Only problem is we are rebuilding but not winning games, actually who was the last coach to gut the list and replace it with kids and still win games...arguably Kevin Sheedy and the baby Bombers...she's a rare thing of beauty then huh.

What's the opposite of a dual narrative?

 

[Cairnsman]

I put this up in Sully's awesome thread on the main board. Maybe there's some perspective for StKilda supporters.

As a Melbourne supporter what do you think about viewing StKilda's situation as equivalent to when Roos was brought in to straighten up your club? Piss-takes aside, Saints supporters are fairly aware of how bad standards have been for the last decade and the correction of that seems to be why most are supportive of Lyon's 2nd tenure.
In the Roos years you finished 17th, 13th and 11th, then 17th again in 2019 and it's undeniable those years and some good drafting set up your premiership, but it took 8 years from when Roos arrived until the pay-off.

Bang on!

It's why I've been saying for a couple of months now, we need to keep this current regime in for at least 10 years.

It took Chris Scott 11 years to win his first flag if you accept his first flag was Bombers, and look at the base Scott started with, meaning he was gifted a highly talented list, albeit at the end of their era, but the other significant asset Scott was gifted was a stable elite sports environment.

Ross Lyon needs to build all of that from the ground up, he's 30 games in.

 

[Cairnsman]

I can guarantee you if we had selected Rozee instead of King, we would have turned Rozee into a Billings.. imagine Rozee playing under Richo and Ratten, having to run around all game like headless chooks and just instructed to kick down the line when you do get the ball…

So King playing bruise free footy is everybody else's fault?

 

[littlecreatures]

Which looks great but like all of our other forwards he doesn't hold the ball inside 50 or work hard enough without the ball.

Think you’re being a bit harsh on Higgins here Gringo:

- He leads the AFL for F50 ground ball gets despite missing a couple games, which says he’s prepared to work hard to win his own ball.

- I would also say his defensive pressure has lifted this year. He comes in at 10th in our squad for average pressure acts, equal second for tackles inside 50, 8th for contested possessions, so definitely isn’t our worst offender here.

- As for lacking speed, the number of goals he gets out the back probably says covering the ground and finding space isn’t an issue, also noting he seems to find a number of different avenues for scoring goals.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Let's all take a deep breath.

Next week is the Ross Lyon cup. Two clubs who haven't won a flag in forever but Lyon got them very close.

I'm tipping a rebound win.

The following week we play Melbourne at the MCG. Although we'll start heavy underdogs, we're a chance. We've won 5 of 8 at the MCG dating back to the beginning of 2021. It's a ground that suits our rebound run off turnovers, and players like Sinclair, Hill, NWM and Henry.

Win those and suddenly it's 5-6 with loads of Marvel games on the run home, and things are looking alright.

Lose both then its 3-8 and I'll agree with those arguing to play more kids and treat this year mostly as preparation for 2025.

If Freo kick straight they will win by 10 goals...there midfield clearance work is very good they just need to convert their opportunities. 2024 is cooked for St Kilda, the players are already playing without confidence and dare. I cant see any quick turn around in form when we have a coach so set in his methods. The entire AFL industry are laughing at the style of football the club are playing, we have regressed years.

I was wondering if Lyon even looks at how other top clubs are playing, other than how he can defend and reduce their scoring? Our game style is nothing like any of the top teams, he has us playing like he coached 15 years ago. I wonder if he has learnt anything from his past failed coaching experiences, because as soon as things got tough he immediately shifted back to his old stodgy style. If he continues with this mindset we are heading for a number of very ordinary years.

Its the old story 'Leopards dont change their spots' and Lyon has shown with his coaching philosophies he wont allow the team the freedom to play front foot attacking footy. For me it explains why so many players have gone backwards this year, he has taken the enjoyment away from playing everything is now a grind.

Im the first to acknowledge we dont have the strongest list, but atm Lyon is coaching to not have blow out losses, rather than winning games. He has completely lost the focus on the principals and basics of football and why players love to play the game IMO. I would rather lose by large margins as long as we play a style of football and give ourselves a chance of scoring. I simply cant see how Lyon will change even with a stronger list, his first and main priority is team defence, scoring is secondary.