Same old same old

[ImperialPurple]

I know there are numerous threads about the team selected for this week's game v Norf, but I dunno, I just felt like addressing this "issue" in its own thread, and asking the question... Is anyone else disturbed by the selections for this week?

I know I am - it is just "same old same old"... The same old tried and unfortunately not necessarily "true" players, getting wheeled out time and again to try and win a "must win" game, when they have not exactly been all that successful in winning these games thus far this season...

There's nothing new, nothing different... Just the same old same old...

Like I said in another thread - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always got... You can't continue to do the same thing over and over, yet expect a different outcome.


The team:

FREMANTLE
B: Roger Hayden, Luke McPharlin, Scott Thornton
HB: Heath Black, Antoni Grover, Steven Dodd
C: Des Headland, Josh Carr, Shaun McManus
HF: Ryan Murphy, Matthew Pavlich, Dean Solomon
F: Jeff Farmer, Chris Tarrant, Robert Warnock
FOLL: Aaron Sandilands, Michael Johnson, Peter Bell
I/C (from): Byron Schammer, Paul Hasleby, Matthew Carr, David Mundy, James Walker, Shane Parker, Daniel Gilmore


My thoughts:
Parker: Two games into his return, and he's really not done much at all. 34 years old, not going to be here next year, wonderful servant but TIME IS UP.

Walker: Yes he carves up the WAFL, but he is not the way forward. He carved up the pre-season as well, but has not done a lot when in the Freo side. He has not been "bad" as such, but really, he's just not very good, and surely his inclusion is hindering the development and prospects of guys like Foster and Ibbotson for next season and beyond...

Gilmore: I just don't get it. Yes he played well against Carlton - but who didn't? It was a 13 goal shellacking... If Sandi and Warners are both playing then he's not in there as a back-up ruckman... so what will his role be???

MCarr: Has been out of form all year, yet will probably play every game, just like last year... He's slow, lacks commitment, turns the ball over as often as not.. I'm not quite ready to say "he's finished", but surely he needs to be shown that his place is not a given, and he needs to work hard for it. This week would have been perfect to send him back to EF, with them playing Subi... but no he gets wheeled out to provide us with more of the same. Surely Crowley was not playing any worse than he was and yet he was dropped. Crowley could come in and do MCarr's role better than MCarr IMO.

Mundy: The guy many of us were hailing as "the next James Hird" is now the whipping boy because of his perceived softness. If he's out of form - drop him for a couple of weeks. Tell him until he can display some hardness for Subi, then there are others who will play ahead of him.

Macca is doing enough to hold his spot, IMO. Good to see Murphy playing - he had a quiet game last week for Souths by all accounts, but he was doing alright prior to that and he is part of the future. He needs a few games in a row to find his feet and show if he can perform consistently at this level. I have no issue with his non-selection up to this point, but I do believe they have got it right with this one.

Now we do have a fair few injuries to the guys outside the 22, so that does make it difficult to bring others in who have been playing well in the WAFL, but IMO, others who could / maybe should be considered:
Foster (duh - consistently in EF's best; what more can the guy do?);
Ibbotson (give him some decent game time and tell him to get in there, get the ball and do what he does best - get it into the forward line);
Drum (Ok so he hasn't been setting the world alight for Perth, but some guys just perform better at the higher level - he might just be one of those people. The guy has class).
Crowley (has played well in each of his outings for Subi - has he "learnt his lesson"?).


I dunno - I just get the feeling that this weekend it will not be pretty... All these players who have been doing SFA all season are running out there again... We are a team of largely soft geriatric underperformers at the moment, and something really needs to change...

Shuffling the same players into different positions isn't really doing "something different" (MJ on the ball, Tarrant at FF, Murphy on HFF), it's just playing it safe while giving the impression of trying something new. But the irony is that the "safe option" is actually not that at all... and it gets back to the "doing the same thing yet expecting a different result" thing.

 

[Lach72]

Couldn't have said it better myself.
We have had numerous opportunities to give some kids an extended run when we have been losing...
If we were winning no issues, but we have looked ordinary all year and the same guys who have not played well getting a run again and again.
...and we keep hearing, they are not ready, and we keep losing...

 

[Bradesmaen]

IP, can you write my posts more often?

 

[Slacker]

May as well reply here IP.

I agree with 95% of what you are saying. Where I would differ is with Walker and your opinions on the listed WAFL players.

Walker is undeniably a lower level AFL player. He has toughened up this year and has shown amazing endeavor when dropped back to the WAFL. He also knows the system and won't be intimidated at AFL level. In the short term he is the best guy to bring into the team IMO.

On the WAFL players - I think I must be in the minority who think that we currently don't have a wealth of talent in the WAFL, particularly now knockers is out.
I have doubts on whether Ibbo and Foster will make it at all, let alone have an impact in 2007. I like Fosters drive, but how is going to travel when his opponent is just as fit as he is and probably more talented. Ibbo will look a million dollars when we are carving a team up, but will struggle to be seen when he no one gives him the pill as he runs past the pack.

Duffmans disposal has been poor at WAFL level, will only get worse at AFL when he is rushing.

Drum and Crowley need to take a leaf out of Walker's book before they get a look in.

 

[Kenny_01]

Yes, 1 was n0t happy w1th select10ns but 1've dec1ded n0t t0 care as much anym0re 0therw1se 1'll start l0s1ng sleep.

And 1'm n0t typ1ng l1ke an 1d10t f0r the hell 0f 1t, 1 dr0pped tea 0n my keyb0ard and s0me keys d0n't w0rk anym0re

 

[Cameron_K]

Yes, 1 was n0t happy w1th select10ns but 1've dec1ded n0t t0 care as much anym0re 0therw1se 1'll start l0s1ng sleep.

And 1'm n0t typ1ng l1ke an 1d10t f0r the hell 0f 1t, 1 dr0pped tea 0n my keyb0ard and s0me keys d0n't w0rk anym0re

I'm sorry, this is the best post I have EVER read on the Fremantle board.

 

[Kram]

Ha ha Kenny. Done the same thing and some of the keys are tacky but still work.

As for the OP that pretty sums up why I want Connelly gone.

 

[Roundhouse]

I know there are numerous threads about the team selected for this week's game v Norf, but I dunno, I just felt like addressing this "issue" in its own thread, and asking the question... Is anyone else disturbed by the selections for this week?

I know I am - it is just "same old same old"... The same old tried and unfortunately not necessarily "true" players, getting wheeled out time and again to try and win a "must win" game, when they have not exactly been all that successful in winning these games thus far this season...

Not disturbed at all.

There's nothing new, nothing different... Just the same old same old...

We haven't recruited any star players in the last fortnight IP. We don't have any youngsters consistently burning up the WAFL either. We've brought in Collard, Ibbotson and Warnock as a reward for good WAFL form this year. Collard and Ibbotson did not not look ready to me, and they were dropped back. Warnock did look ready and he been given more chances. Seems like a fair approach to me.

Like I said in another thread - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always got... You can't continue to do the same thing over and over, yet expect a different outcome.

I've always had a loathing of maxims like this. When you apply it to selecting a footy team you can make it seem like a good idea to drop inconsistent AFL players for inconsistent WAFL players. If a guy is playing average at AFL level you can't expect a guy playing average WAFL footy to come in and do a better job.

The team:

FREMANTLE
B: Roger Hayden, Luke McPharlin, Scott Thornton
HB: Heath Black, Antoni Grover, Steven Dodd
C: Des Headland, Josh Carr, Shaun McManus
HF: Ryan Murphy, Matthew Pavlich, Dean Solomon
F: Jeff Farmer, Chris Tarrant, Robert Warnock
FOLL: Aaron Sandilands, Michael Johnson, Peter Bell
I/C (from): Byron Schammer, Paul Hasleby, Matthew Carr, David Mundy, James Walker, Shane Parker, Daniel Gilmore


My thoughts:
Parker: Two games into his return, and he's really not done much at all. 34 years old, not going to be here next year, wonderful servant but TIME IS UP.

Problem is Haddrill, Drum, Copping, and Rumble have been equally uninspiring at WAFL level. Parker has been OK since his return. Forget about his age. Forget about his "runs on the board". If can do the job better than those guys in WAFL then he should be in the team.

Walker: Yes he carves up the WAFL, but he is not the way forward. He carved up the pre-season as well, but has not done a lot when in the Freo side. He has not been "bad" as such, but really, he's just not very good, and surely his inclusion is hindering the development and prospects of guys like Foster and Ibbotson for next season and beyond...

Hindering their development? What a load of carp! If either of Foster or Ibbotson had picked up 37 odd possessions and kicked four goals in the WAFL last week they would be playing. Like it or not, Walker is a better player than both of them at this stage, and is playing better, so he should be played. End of story.

Gilmore: I just don't get it. Yes he played well against Carlton - but who didn't? It was a 13 goal shellacking... If Sandi and Warners are both playing then he's not in there as a back-up ruckman... so what will his role be???

He probably won't play. He's in the squad in case Sandi needs to pull out. He has been a servicable back-up this year.

MCarr: Has been out of form all year, yet will probably play every game, just like last year... He's slow, lacks commitment, turns the ball over as often as not.. I'm not quite ready to say "he's finished", but surely he needs to be shown that his place is not a given, and he needs to work hard for it. This week would have been perfect to send him back to EF, with them playing Subi... but no he gets wheeled out to provide us with more of the same. Surely Crowley was not playing any worse than he was and yet he was dropped. Crowley could come in and do MCarr's role better than MCarr IMO.

Crowley was playing much worse than MCarr. That is why he got dropped. If you can't see Carr's value in the team you need to start looking at the defensive side of his game a bit more. He should be in the team.

Mundy: The guy many of us were hailing as "the next James Hird" is now the whipping boy because of his perceived softness. If he's out of form - drop him for a couple of weeks. Tell him until he can display some hardness for Subi, then there are others who will play ahead of him.

Who can play ahead of him? Copping, Drum. Guys who are as uninspiring at WAFL level as Mundy has been at AFL level.

Macca is doing enough to hold his spot, IMO. Good to see Murphy playing - he had a quiet game last week for Souths by all accounts, but he was doing alright prior to that and he is part of the future. He needs a few games in a row to find his feet and show if he can perform consistently at this level. I have no issue with his non-selection up to this point, but I do believe they have got it right with this one.

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here IP. Murphy's form at AFL level has been a big let down. Why advocate giving him a few games in a row just because he "part of the future" when earlier you have said that Mundy (who is also part of the future) should be dropped. Like it or not, Mundy has been performing much better than Murphy at AFL level than Murphy has when he has been given a chance.

Now we do have a fair few injuries to the guys outside the 22, so that does make it difficult to bring others in who have been playing well in the WAFL, but IMO, others who could / maybe should be considered:
Foster (duh - consistently in EF's best; what more can the guy do?);
Ibbotson (give him some decent game time and tell him to get in there, get the ball and do what he does best - get it into the forward line);
Drum (Ok so he hasn't been setting the world alight for Perth, but some guys just perform better at the higher level - he might just be one of those people. The guy has class).
Crowley (has played well in each of his outings for Subi - has he "learnt his lesson"?).


I dunno - I just get the feeling that this weekend it will not be pretty... All these players who have been doing SFA all season are running out there again... We are a team of largely soft geriatric underperformers at the moment, and something really needs to change...

Shuffling the same players into different positions isn't really doing "something different" (MJ on the ball, Tarrant at FF, Murphy on HFF), it's just playing it safe while giving the impression of trying something new. But the irony is that the "safe option" is actually not that at all... and it gets back to the "doing the same thing yet expecting a different result" thing.

Shuffling underperforming WAFL players in and out of the team is not really a "safe" option either though is it? In my opinion it is not a smart one either.

I agree that we have so far had an annus horribulus in terms of the number of good players injured, suspended, or out of form. It doesn't translate that we have had a bad year in terms of the choices made at the selection table.
I'd say the selectors have been fair in rewarding WAFL form and choosing the best team available.

The fact that we haven't made wholesale changes, and brought in players who haven't deserved it out of a mere sense of desperation, is a positive. The fact that you are advocating is the only thing I find disturbing.

I think your issue is with players underperforming, at both levels, and is a player issue rather than a selection issue. I think you are just wanting to have a dig at the selectors out of frustration IP. If you can point out games that have been clearly lost at the selection you may have a stronger point. It's hard to though, even with the benefit of hindsight.

 

[prattsta]

Walker - Has been good this year (his best season so far) deserved to be selected after his WAFL game on the weekend. He isnt hindering the development of anyone, if they are good enough for a spot at least he is one of the few making them earn it.

Gilmore - He isn't a ruckman, maybe he will be positioned accordingly for a change. We have plenty of players with much worse disposal who get a free ride each week, at least he offers something other than tackling to the side.

 

[sumavich]

I know there are numerous threads about the team selected for this week's game v Norf, but I dunno, I just felt like addressing this "issue" in its own thread, and asking the question... Is anyone else disturbed by the selections for this week?

I know I am - it is just "same old same old"... The same old tried and unfortunately not necessarily "true" players, getting wheeled out time and again to try and win a "must win" game, when they have not exactly been all that successful in winning these games thus far this season...

There's nothing new, nothing different... Just the same old same old...

Like I said in another thread - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always got... You can't continue to do the same thing over and over, yet expect a different outcome.


The team:

FREMANTLE
B: Roger Hayden, Luke McPharlin, Scott Thornton
HB: Heath Black, Antoni Grover, Steven Dodd
C: Des Headland, Josh Carr, Shaun McManus
HF: Ryan Murphy, Matthew Pavlich, Dean Solomon
F: Jeff Farmer, Chris Tarrant, Robert Warnock
FOLL: Aaron Sandilands, Michael Johnson, Peter Bell
I/C (from): Byron Schammer, Paul Hasleby, Matthew Carr, David Mundy, James Walker, Shane Parker, Daniel Gilmore


My thoughts:
Parker: Two games into his return, and he's really not done much at all. 34 years old, not going to be here next year, wonderful servant but TIME IS UP.

Walker: Yes he carves up the WAFL, but he is not the way forward. He carved up the pre-season as well, but has not done a lot when in the Freo side. He has not been "bad" as such, but really, he's just not very good, and surely his inclusion is hindering the development and prospects of guys like Foster and Ibbotson for next season and beyond...

Gilmore: I just don't get it. Yes he played well against Carlton - but who didn't? It was a 13 goal shellacking... If Sandi and Warners are both playing then he's not in there as a back-up ruckman... so what will his role be???

MCarr: Has been out of form all year, yet will probably play every game, just like last year... He's slow, lacks commitment, turns the ball over as often as not.. I'm not quite ready to say "he's finished", but surely he needs to be shown that his place is not a given, and he needs to work hard for it. This week would have been perfect to send him back to EF, with them playing Subi... but no he gets wheeled out to provide us with more of the same. Surely Crowley was not playing any worse than he was and yet he was dropped. Crowley could come in and do MCarr's role better than MCarr IMO.

Mundy: The guy many of us were hailing as "the next James Hird" is now the whipping boy because of his perceived softness. If he's out of form - drop him for a couple of weeks. Tell him until he can display some hardness for Subi, then there are others who will play ahead of him.

Macca is doing enough to hold his spot, IMO. Good to see Murphy playing - he had a quiet game last week for Souths by all accounts, but he was doing alright prior to that and he is part of the future. He needs a few games in a row to find his feet and show if he can perform consistently at this level. I have no issue with his non-selection up to this point, but I do believe they have got it right with this one.

Now we do have a fair few injuries to the guys outside the 22, so that does make it difficult to bring others in who have been playing well in the WAFL, but IMO, others who could / maybe should be considered:
Foster (duh - consistently in EF's best; what more can the guy do?);
Ibbotson (give him some decent game time and tell him to get in there, get the ball and do what he does best - get it into the forward line);
Drum (Ok so he hasn't been setting the world alight for Perth, but some guys just perform better at the higher level - he might just be one of those people. The guy has class).
Crowley (has played well in each of his outings for Subi - has he "learnt his lesson"?).


I dunno - I just get the feeling that this weekend it will not be pretty... All these players who have been doing SFA all season are running out there again... We are a team of largely soft geriatric underperformers at the moment, and something really needs to change...

Shuffling the same players into different positions isn't really doing "something different" (MJ on the ball, Tarrant at FF, Murphy on HFF), it's just playing it safe while giving the impression of trying something new. But the irony is that the "safe option" is actually not that at all... and it gets back to the "doing the same thing yet expecting a different result" thing.

Yep !!

 

[prattsta]

Roundhouse, i am in complete agreement with you on this one.

 

[Ripper]

Roundhouse, i am in complete agreement with you on this one.

I am mostly.

I/C (from): Byron Schammer, Paul Hasleby, Matthew Carr, David Mundy, James Walker, Shane Parker, Daniel Gilmore

Interesting I/C bench.

Assuming Walker & Parker will play the Sharks may get a big boost tommorrow.

 

[Lach72]

Not disturbed at all.



We haven't recruited any star players in the last fortnight IP. We don't have any youngsters consistently burning up the WAFL either. We've brought in Collard, Ibbotson and Warnock as a reward for good WAFL form this year. Collard and Ibbotson did not not look ready to me, and they were dropped back. Warnock did look ready and he been given more chances. Seems like a fair approach to me.



I've always had a loathing of maxims like this. When you apply it to selecting a footy team you can make it seem like a good idea to drop inconsistent AFL players for inconsistent WAFL players. If a guy is playing average at AFL level you can't expect a guy playing average WAFL footy to come in and do a better job.



Problem is Haddrill, Drum, Copping, and Rumble have been equally uninspiring at WAFL level. Parker has been OK since his return. Forget about his age. Forget about his "runs on the board". If can do the job better than those guys in WAFL then he should be in the team.



Hindering their development? What a load of carp! If either of Foster or Ibbotson had picked up 37 odd possessions and kicked four goals in the WAFL last week they would be playing. Like it or not, Walker is a better player than both of them at this stage, and is playing better, so he should be played. End of story.

He probably won't play. He's in the squad in case Sandi needs to pull out. He has been a servicable back-up this year.



Crowley was playing much worse than MCarr. That is why he got dropped. If you can't see Carr's value in the team you need to start looking at the defensive side of his game a bit more. He should be in the team.



Who can play ahead of him? Copping, Drum. Guys who are as uninspiring at WAFL level as Mundy has been at AFL level.



You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here IP. Murphy's form at AFL level has been a big let down. Why advocate giving him a few games in a row just because he "part of the future" when earlier you have said that Mundy (who is also part of the future) should be dropped. Like it or not, Mundy has been performing much better than Murphy at AFL level than Murphy has when he has been given a chance.



Shuffling underperforming WAFL players in and out of the team is not really a "safe" option either though is it? In my opinion it is not a smart one either.

I agree that we have so far had an annus horribulus in terms of the number of good players injured, suspended, or out of form. It doesn't translate that we have had a bad year in terms of the choices made at the selection table.
I'd say the selectors have been fair in rewarding WAFL form and choosing the best team available.

The fact that we haven't made wholesale changes, and brought in players who haven't deserved it out of a mere sense of desperation, is a positive. The fact that you are advocating is the only thing I find disturbing.

I think your issue is with players underperforming, at both levels, and is a player issue rather than a selection issue. I think you are just wanting to have a dig at the selectors out of frustration IP. If you can point out games that have been clearly lost at the selection you may have a stronger point. It's hard to though, even with the benefit of hindsight.

Foster and Ibbotson have regularly been in the best for East Freo and Matt Carr is a protected species who should've been dropped ages ago.

...and the ultilmate proof is in the pudding...6 wins from 14 games...so yeah lets keep playing the same guys...Tops!

 

[Scham]

Totally agree IP.

This team has Chris Connolly written all over it. No creativeness, no imagination, yawn...no WAFL form being rewarded, no faith in young players...etc, etc.

 

[The Night Shift]

I know there are numerous threads about the team selected for this week's game v Norf, but I dunno, I just felt like addressing this "issue" in its own thread, and asking the question... Is anyone else disturbed by the selections for this week?

I know I am - it is just "same old same old"... The same old tried and unfortunately not necessarily "true" players, getting wheeled out time and again to try and win a "must win" game, when they have not exactly been all that successful in winning these games thus far this season...

There's nothing new, nothing different... Just the same old same old...

Like I said in another thread - the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always got... You can't continue to do the same thing over and over, yet expect a different outcome.


The team:

FREMANTLE
B: Roger Hayden, Luke McPharlin, Scott Thornton
HB: Heath Black, Antoni Grover, Steven Dodd
C: Des Headland, Josh Carr, Shaun McManus
HF: Ryan Murphy, Matthew Pavlich, Dean Solomon
F: Jeff Farmer, Chris Tarrant, Robert Warnock
FOLL: Aaron Sandilands, Michael Johnson, Peter Bell
I/C (from): Byron Schammer, Paul Hasleby, Matthew Carr, David Mundy, James Walker, Shane Parker, Daniel Gilmore


My thoughts:
Parker: Two games into his return, and he's really not done much at all. 34 years old, not going to be here next year, wonderful servant but TIME IS UP.

Walker: Yes he carves up the WAFL, but he is not the way forward. He carved up the pre-season as well, but has not done a lot when in the Freo side. He has not been "bad" as such, but really, he's just not very good, and surely his inclusion is hindering the development and prospects of guys like Foster and Ibbotson for next season and beyond...

Gilmore: I just don't get it. Yes he played well against Carlton - but who didn't? It was a 13 goal shellacking... If Sandi and Warners are both playing then he's not in there as a back-up ruckman... so what will his role be???

MCarr: Has been out of form all year, yet will probably play every game, just like last year... He's slow, lacks commitment, turns the ball over as often as not.. I'm not quite ready to say "he's finished", but surely he needs to be shown that his place is not a given, and he needs to work hard for it. This week would have been perfect to send him back to EF, with them playing Subi... but no he gets wheeled out to provide us with more of the same. Surely Crowley was not playing any worse than he was and yet he was dropped. Crowley could come in and do MCarr's role better than MCarr IMO.

Mundy: The guy many of us were hailing as "the next James Hird" is now the whipping boy because of his perceived softness. If he's out of form - drop him for a couple of weeks. Tell him until he can display some hardness for Subi, then there are others who will play ahead of him.

Macca is doing enough to hold his spot, IMO. Good to see Murphy playing - he had a quiet game last week for Souths by all accounts, but he was doing alright prior to that and he is part of the future. He needs a few games in a row to find his feet and show if he can perform consistently at this level. I have no issue with his non-selection up to this point, but I do believe they have got it right with this one.

Now we do have a fair few injuries to the guys outside the 22, so that does make it difficult to bring others in who have been playing well in the WAFL, but IMO, others who could / maybe should be considered:
Foster (duh - consistently in EF's best; what more can the guy do?);
Ibbotson (give him some decent game time and tell him to get in there, get the ball and do what he does best - get it into the forward line);
Drum (Ok so he hasn't been setting the world alight for Perth, but some guys just perform better at the higher level - he might just be one of those people. The guy has class).
Crowley (has played well in each of his outings for Subi - has he "learnt his lesson"?).


I dunno - I just get the feeling that this weekend it will not be pretty... All these players who have been doing SFA all season are running out there again... We are a team of largely soft geriatric underperformers at the moment, and something really needs to change...

Shuffling the same players into different positions isn't really doing "something different" (MJ on the ball, Tarrant at FF, Murphy on HFF), it's just playing it safe while giving the impression of trying something new. But the irony is that the "safe option" is actually not that at all... and it gets back to the "doing the same thing yet expecting a different result" thing.

You hit the nail on the head. I agree.

 

[DOCKER MAN]

Crowley was playing much worse than MCarr. That is why he got dropped. If you can't see Carr's value in the team you need to start looking at the defensive side of his game a bit more. He should be in the team.

.

I strongly Disagree, I can't recall crowley getting beaten this year by the person he's tagging. M Carr was awesome last year as a tagger, this year he has gone to shit, as of late every person he has played has thrashed him. Not the Carlton game but there was no one to tag.
And another issue regarding CC is Des Headland, there was a stage earlier this year he was in shocking form much worse then crowley's was, luckily Headland has proved his worth and returned to form. However it is frustrating that CC plays favourites and guys like M Carr and Headland can consistantly get games despite terrible form, when there is guys like Duffield, Foster, Ibo and Walker ripping the Wafl to shreds.

 

[jarman]

IP - while CC is there, its will always be same old, same old. Did you expect anything to change? Hardly.

If we loose against the Roos and our finals chances are totally gone, maybe he will make the necessary changes or do something different.

 

[summerthebat]

Right on the money!

Excellent post.

 

[Plugga]

IP - Totally Agree

Why Parker is still playing is beyond my reckoning? Futile..stupid..incomprehensible.

David Mundy should be dropped. Had a shocker of a year...& this year seems not to want to put his body on the line.

Matt Carr. Just shouldn't be getting a guernsey IMO. We have enough slow midfielders withouth throwing in another one who is an average player. Ibbo or Drum (no matter what Wafl form) should be getting Afl games into their legs ahead of MCarr.

Gilmore - Waste of space IMO. Disposal is average to say the least. Is hard at some contests, & doesn't chase in others. Ruck work is laughable. Is a poor mans Brendan Fewster.

Walker - 40 touches, 3 goals is a fair return against Subiaco. Worth a punt to play in midfield role. Been around a long time - & is a depth player now.

 

[ImperialPurple]

Originally posted by roundhouse
We haven't recruited any star players in the last fortnight IP. We don't have any youngsters consistently burning up the WAFL either. We've brought in Collard, Ibbotson and Warnock as a reward for good WAFL form this year. Collard and Ibbotson did not not look ready to me, and they were dropped back. Warnock did look ready and he been given more chances. Seems like a fair approach to me.

Ibbotson did fine for the very limited game time he received on the day IMO. I can see where CC is coming from in not "chucking the youngsters in at the deep end" as some other clubs are forced to do, and we have also at times in the past, but more often than not young guys are picked then spend the majority of the game as benchwarners, having little opportunity to "get into" the game and get a few touches. Then they are dropped. Agree totally with Collard - he looked like a rabbit in the headlights and certainly appeared unready for AFL. Warnock has been good, sure - but IMO his first couple of games where he got 6 and 7 touches were not necessarily any better than Ibbotson's game. But his "coming into favour" has more to do with JLo's unavailability, than anything to do with giving a youngster a chance to prove himself.
And I don't know what else guys like Ibbotson and Foster can do other than be named in their side's best week in and week out.

I've always had a loathing of maxims like this.

Your problem that one. Stereotyopes, cliches and maxims only become so because of the element of truth attached to them. They don't pop up out of nowhere and become ingrained in language and culture for no reason.

When you apply it to selecting a footy team you can make it seem like a good idea to drop inconsistent AFL players for inconsistent WAFL players. If a guy is playing average at AFL level you can't expect a guy playing average WAFL footy to come in and do a better job.

I'm not suggesting that. MCarr has been crap all year. He's surviving on reputation alone IMO. I can't count the amount of times he gets the ball and I cringe, knowing that it will be handballed to a player in traffic, or with someone on his hammer, or it will be kicked and turned over, or he can't make a decision and so holds the play up while the opposition floods back giving Pav and Taz no room to work in, then kicks long to a 1 on 3, or 2 on 4... Surely giving someone else a go to at least try and do it better might be worth consideration. You can't just keep doing the same thing over and over and over waiting for something different to result. Parker was dropped and played very, very average WAFL footy yet was given the call up to continue in his average ways at the next level. That's inconsistency.

Crowley has gone back and played a couple of very good games, BoG in one and near BoG in the other. Foster and Ibbotson are consistently named in their side's best players. What else can they do but play well consistently?

Problem is Haddrill, Drum, Copping, and Rumble have been equally uninspiring at WAFL level. Parker has been OK since his return. Forget about his age. Forget about his "runs on the board". If can do the job better than those guys in WAFL then he should be in the team.

Copping is no good - he will be gone - plus hes a rookie so they can't play him anyway. Ditto Rumble. Haddrill - I really don't know what his status is; he's playing as a forward for Perth and appears to be way out of consideration anyway. Drum might just be a player like Peake in terms of his ability to "step up" to AFL level. Peakey doesn't inspire at WAFL level, but goes pretty well at AFL level. How does this work? I don't know... I'm not necessarily saying "play Drummy" - just that given what we are currently doing is not working (ie we keep losing), then it may be worth trying something different.

Hindering their development? What a load of carp! If either of Foster or Ibbotson had picked up 37 odd possessions and kicked four goals in the WAFL last week they would be playing. Like it or not, Walker is a better player than both of them at this stage, and is playing better, so he should be played. End of story.

OK maybe "hindering their development" might have been the wrong phrase to use. But my point is that we know exactly what we are going to get with Walker becuase he's already done it 150 times. I love Jimmy Walker - geez no-one was happier than me to see him reach 150 games, but this is not about "like it or not"; it's about where the club is going. Grandson will come in, make a few spectacular runs, a couple of good tackles, turn it over a few times, kick high up and unders into the forward line giving the spare man enough time to get onto Pav to make his contest 3 on 1. Great, let's do it! Go Jimmy.

Slacker said: Walker is undeniably a lower level AFL player. He has toughened up this year and has shown amazing endeavor when dropped back to the WAFL. He also knows the system and won't be intimidated at AFL level. In the short term he is the best guy to bring into the team IMO.

And yes, i agree he's probably earned his call-up in the short term, and for that I am happy for Grandson. However, when he knows he's playing each week for his spot, he will either do his one or two specky things and then try "too hard" and miss the mark; or he will play consistently enough to keep his position each week. So far this year, he has done only the former. He is not consistent. Unfortunately. How many chances should he get to show some consistency before someone else gets a shot??? Cos he hasn't done it so far.

He probably won't play. He's in the squad in case Sandi needs to pull out. He has been a servicable back-up this year.

Agree. I imagine we will see him line up for Souths where he has been average when he has played.

Crowley was playing much worse than MCarr. That is why he got dropped. If you can't see Carr's value in the team you need to start looking at the defensive side of his game a bit more. He should be in the team.

Disagree. I can see that when MCarr is playing well, his defensive game far outweighs the errors he makes in disposal and decision making. However, I don't think he has been consistently good in playing a stopping role, and we have guys like Dodd and Crowley who are also good stoppers who could be groomed for this role. Try something different. It just might work a little better than what isn't working right now.

Who can play ahead of him? Copping, Drum. Guys who are as uninspiring at WAFL level as Mundy has been at AFL level.

Just so you know - I'm not a Mundy basher. Copping can't play. Nor should he. Drum - well who knows? Might Mundy just come back as good as we know he can be if he's forced to earn his spot, and might Drum just rise to the occasion?? Probably not a good idea to experiment with something like that - I was just floating the idea (largely based on popular opinion that Mundy is coasting a little too much) and trying to generate discussion and ideas.

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here IP. Murphy's form at AFL level has been a big let down. Why advocate giving him a few games in a row just because he "part of the future" when earlier you have said that Mundy (who is also part of the future) should be dropped. Like it or not, Mundy has been performing much better than Murphy at AFL level than Murphy has when he has been given a chance.

It's not about Mundy. Mundy has had 56 games in succession, so it's not like he hasn't been given plenty of time to cement his position (), but maybe a touch of complacency has crept in. But like I said it's not about Mundy, and I am not necessrily advocating that he gets dropped.

Murphy was total crap at the beginning of the year. He was dropped and spent 3 months out of the side. In his time back at Souths he was average at best for the most part. However, he went on a bit of a roll - maybe partly due to Jeffrey being alongside him - and he started kicking bags. He wasn't great against carlton, but he didn't get a lot of game time, and he spent some of it down back... and there were signs that he was working hard, especially off the ball. I remember two occasions where he ran 80m to provide a lead (ignored both times), for someone in the back half. He was left out last week because of the smaller SCG, but now, IMO, he needs to be given a couple of weeks with some decent game time, and he needs to grab his opportunity. If he can't cut it, at least he has been given a chance, and we all know that he's not playing because he's not good enough, not for any other reason.

Shuffling underperforming WAFL players in and out of the team is not really a "safe" option either though is it? In my opinion it is not a smart one either.

How many times can I say - it's not the underperforming WAFL players I am looking at. It's the ones who are consistently in their side's best. Parker wasn't. Gilmore rarely is. Walker burns up the WAFL, then plays a good quarter or half at AFL level, then does what he's pretty much always done - no consistency there.

I agree that we have so far had an annus horribulus in terms of the number of good players injured, suspended, or out of form. It doesn't translate that we have had a bad year in terms of the choices made at the selection table.
I'd say the selectors have been fair in rewarding WAFL form and choosing the best team available.

The fact that we haven't made wholesale changes, and brought in players who haven't deserved it out of a mere sense of desperation, is a positive. The fact that you are advocating is the only thing I find disturbing.

For the 75th time - I am not advocating wholesale changes. You are putting words into my mouth. Just why keep playing the same badly performed players week in and week out? The same players who are not winning games for us?

I think your issue is with players underperforming, at both levels, and is a player issue rather than a selection issue. I think you are just wanting to have a dig at the selectors out of frustration IP. If you can point out games that have been clearly lost at the selection you may have a stronger point. It's hard to though, even with the benefit of hindsight.

You're damn straight I am frustrated. PF last year, and wallowing in 11th place with 6 wins and 8 losses this year. 6 wins from 14 starts. That doesn't even reach the dizzying heights of mediocrity! Yes there is time to change it around, but something different needs to be done, cos what we are doing just aint working. The fact you refuse to see that is something I find rather disturbing.

 

[Bigger]

It' sdifficlut to say a game was lost at the selection table - because who knows what the alternative choioces could and would have done - but lets try Sydney.

It's the SCG, it's wet and you go in with two 2 metre tall ruckmen, no Cook and an out0of-sorts (more than probably injured) Carr and Hasleby.

Some of that is understandable bbut some of it is dumb.

 

[summerthebat]

I think it's time Webster got another crack, I don't think he deserves to be thrown to the wolves just yet.

 

[ImperialPurple]

I think Webster is injured at the moment.

 

[Dr Ralph Dagg]

I agree that we have so far had an annus horribulus in terms of the number of good players injured, suspended, or out of form. It doesn't translate that we have had a bad year in terms of the choices made at the selection table.
I'd say the selectors have been fair in rewarding WAFL form and choosing the best team available.

The fact that we haven't made wholesale changes, and brought in players who haven't deserved it out of a mere sense of desperation, is a positive. The fact that you are advocating is the only thing I find disturbing.

I think your issue is with players underperforming, at both levels, and is a player issue rather than a selection issue. I think you are just wanting to have a dig at the selectors out of frustration IP. If you can point out games that have been clearly lost at the selection you may have a stronger point. It's hard to though, even with the benefit of hindsight.

There was a thread on this on DL. Roundhouse and I are attuned on this one. There's nowt pushing up from below. You could even go so far as to say its an indictment on the youngsters that none apart from Foster have sttod out even when there are places available for them if they really wanted them. If Ibbo was getting his hands dirty and topping Woewodin's possessions count he'd be in like that old Tasmanian Gay Boy.

Which is not to say IP is wrong. We are stuck with the same old same old and they're not getting the job done. I'm 60/40 we'll get done by the Kangaroos this weekend.

However, al least Mundy has been sent a message. After 2 straight seasons he's an emergency. Just on the 3.00 pm news. Last weekend I watched him ponce about like he was afraid to get wet, so I think Scotty Waters should be put him in the reserves. In fact, does anyone know whether the AFL women's championships is over. That's more his style.

 

[summerthebat]

I think Webster is injured at the moment.