Opinion Setting up for a fall?

[1981]

Lets not be the supporter group that blame losses on umpires and injuries.

We would have lost the WC game regardless of the injury to Jamison as we were beaten all over the ground that day.

We played badly all of the Doggies game and only got to a 4 goal lead early on in the game on the back of some generous frees/50m penalties. Also unlucky to get Cooney on his 1 standout game for the season.

You're missing the point.

We went within, what, around 5 goals in both thsoe games, despite playing poorly and being crulled by poor umpiring decisions or injuries.

Similarly, the Ess game this year, got done by 5-6 gls despite not turning up and having injuries.

That's the worst football, the worst beatings we have taken since the start of 2011.

You need to put things in perspective.

We're a good team that rarely gets beat now, and when we do it is not by much, even when we are playing poorly and have thigns going against us.

And btw, you are dreadfully wrong on the WB game. Yes we were poor that day, but I tell you, go back and watch the game again and you will see one of the very rare occasions a team's fate can actually be totally impacted by umpiring. I saw this game again recently on Fox, literally a month or two ago, and was amazed at the umpiring and its impact on the game. I didn;t notice it on the day at the ground, because I was more furious with our players, but trust me, the umpires screwed us that day - at critical times, things just went against us.

I am not saying we would have won had the umps not been so poor, but it'd have been a 1 point game !

Anyhow, I digress. I am not saying we lost games purely because of umpiring and injuries. I am just trying to make the point that our worst losses have not been 50+ pt blowouts, and have been in games where tbhigns have gone against us.

It stands to reason then what you are left with is a pretty darn good football side.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

The game has gotten incredibly scientific. These days coaches spend more time looking at KPIs than players.
Coaches know, just by comparing KPIs, whether their team should win. Doesn’t necessarily mean they will win, but rather they should.
Ratten would have looked at the KPIs and known we’d have to have 7 injuries to not beat GWS, and that this meant we could afford to do some different things, and rest some players, and still win the game.
The only concern, if there is one, is all this talk and tweaking of tactics might get to the players’ heads, but I don’t think it will.
I actually think this playing group, most of them anyhow, know where they are at, and this is a good thing.
They have made finals 3 years straight, had heart break along the way, they know what they need to do now. It is a sign of a maturity that they know what they are capable of and what is required.
So they know they don’t have to totally 110% bust their butt every game, they know they can preserve themselves X amount and in turn this should limit the risk of injury, in what is becoming a ridiculously dangerous game with injuries left right and centre.
The team is pacing themselves beautifully.
They are ‘up’ for the big challenges, like Coll.
The Ess game was probably another little lesson along the way, a let down after they had their most significant win in over 10 years.
The other thing to remember is the injuries in that game – Carrots gone early, Laidler could barely run let alone turn, Yazz was restricted and ended up coming off, and Curnow was on one leg.
Cast your mind back, the only major losses we have had since the start of 2011 have been when we have been cruelled by injury – WC and Ess.
The Dogs game, in retrospect, we were absolutely robbed by the umps – go see the game again and tell me the umps didn’t ruin us and directly impact on the game.
We beat GWS last week by 11 gaols without winning the clearances and hard ball count, and without Judd, Carrazzo, Curnow, Waite, and Yarran. The first three are 3 of our 4 main on-ballers.
And yet we still won with ease, apparently tweaking the game plan as we went.
I see this as calculated risk, resting and innovation.
Look the game is getting more and more demanding on players, and game plans are having more and more impact on success – the club are working with these ‘realities’ beautifully, they have learnt from Geelong that you need to rest players (and frankly having won or not having won a flag means nothing, it is the act of recognising resting players is good management that counts), they are aware there are more and more injuries nowadays, they are aware game plans are changing all the time and you need to be ahead of the game, they are aware also I suspect you don’t want to give away our your cards too early, keep opp coaches guessing.
This team didn’t beat a top 4 side all year last year, but you know what, they went close to winning in nearly all these games.
They were a smidgen off the pace in 2011 and I think in 2012 have the cattle to really compete.
The players might have got ahead of themselves after the Coll game, but all that means is they will be less likely to fall for this trap again
They’re still developing, but they are closer to what it takes now than they ever have been
We’re second on the ladder btw, maybe you missed that? Best start to a year since 1995.
And you think we have problems?
Let’s see how we take St.K on on Monday night.
I’m guessing we will win the game.

Some excuse making there.

First of all, while there's no doubt injuries did affect us in the Bombers game, that is not the reason we lost. The intensity of the playing group was down after it was at max level against the Pies. If injuries REALLY hampered us in that game, how is it that we were full of run in the last qtr? By that stage the players should have been absolutely stuffed after having to cover for the loss of run for the previous 2 and a half quarters, but they weren't. They simply weren't willing to work hard enough in that game.

Now about the Dogs game and whinging about the umpires, do you not remember how many 50M penalties we got and kicked goals as a result? We were able to get IIRC about 30 point lead thanks mostly to the 50M penalty goals we received. It was just a poor effort from there.

As for still being second, yes that's awesome, but the way they've gone about it in the last 3 weeks is not going to cut it against the better teams. They will need to start putting together some consistent 4 qtr efforts, starting this Monday night. This way they will build lots of confidence and form when heading into the tough period of the season where we have the Cats, Eagles in Perth and then a bye followed by the Hawks. Winning ugly may work against St Kilda, Adelaide, etc, but it will not work against those teams.

 

[1981]

Another point I want to make, is even if the players drink their own bathwater a bit, like they did against Ess, I'd be mortified if they let this attitude control them all year.

They are still a developing side. Most of the players still have improvement in them, both physically and mentally.

They will take more small backward steps, some due to big heads, but they'll learn from this. It's not like 2012 is going to be a blow out because the players will play every game full of themselves.

Hey, I'll tell you what, when we drop to 6th-8th on the ladder, I will worry. But for the time being I think this playing group know what they are capable of, and know when to pull their fingers out.

 

[1981]

Some excuse making there.

First of all, while there's no doubt injuries did affect us in the Bombers game, that is not the reason we lost. The intensity of the playing group was down after it was at max level against the Pies. If injuries REALLY hampered us in that game, how is it that we were full of run in the last qtr? By that stage the players should have been absolutely stuffed after having to cover for the loss of run for the previous 2 and a half quarters, but they weren't. They simply weren't willing to work hard enough in that game.

Now about the Dogs game and whinging about the umpires, do you not remember how many 50M penalties we got and kicked goals as a result? We were able to get IIRC about 30 point lead thanks mostly to the 50M penalty goals we received. It was just a poor effort from there.

As for still being second, yes that's awesome, but the way they've gone about it in the last 3 weeks is not going to cut it against the better teams. They will need to start putting together some consistent 4 qtr efforts, starting this Monday night. This way they will build lots of confidence and form when heading into the tough period of the season where we have the Cats, Eagles in Perth and then a bye followed by the Hawks. Winning ugly may work against St Kilda, Adelaide, etc, but it will not work against those teams.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Go watch the Dogs game again like I did recently. You're kdding yourself and others here if you say the umps didn['t kill us that day.

And as for your last point, hmm, mes thinks you've just reiterated my points - the players know they can cruise past poor to average teams. When we come up against the Pies, when we have to do somethign we haven't done for years, that is when they pull it out.

Remember the great Bris team didn't finish top when it won its flags, and the Cats have made an art form of cruising in seocnd and third gear and then pulling the big one out when needed. Nothign diff to how this young but seasoned CFC team are going about their business.

Seriously, I cannot believe there are CFC supporters who can criticise when we are 2nd on the ladder, it beggars belief.

You are deluded if you think in the modern game, with all the physical demands, that players will go 110% every week, esp when they play teams they know they are superior to.

Watch C.Judd. Our hero. Tell me he doesn't pace himself ! It is bleedingly obvious he does, and now the team are.

CFC did this in 2011 as well. Game against Port a good example. Behind early, Then totally overran them.

This team know the challenges in 2012. Namely Coll, Hawks, WC, and to a lesser extent Cats. They will be up for these games and hopefully will take the next step.

In between they need to take care of business, which they have dione so far as they sit 2nd on the ladder, so stop being so pessimistic.

If you want to look at negatives, look maybe at our relative lack of depth in true on-ball;ers, and how we have lost the clearance count the last few weeks since Carrots has been out and last when when he and Judd and Ed were out. That's more a concern that the players and coaches knowing where they are at for heavens sakes.

 

[ThePine]

i have to agree with 1981 on a few points.

we havnt been smashed last year or this year going by the final margin. there are a few games were we have been shocking but managed to work back into the game or steam the bleeding.

the essendon lost this year wasn't great. We were leading at quarter time and could of been up by more if lucas had a kicked the set shot from 35 out. All this despite being "off" and having 3 injuries in the first qtr. In the end it was only a 30 point loss in one of the worst performances I have seen carlton put up in nearly a year and half.

there is not a team in the comp that I dont think we cant beat on talent. I think it all comes down to mentality and injuries.

if we can get carrazo, yarran and laidler back into the mix we look even better.

 

[SBYM]

there is not a team in the comp that I dont think we cant beat on talent. I think it all comes down to mentality and injuries.

This. On any given day, if we 'come to play' with our best on the park we are in it up to our necks.

And there is no way we can blame the umps for last years debacle against the Dogs, we were shite and deserved to have our arses handed to us by an inferior team.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

You don't know what you are talking about.

Thanks for letting me know

Go watch the Dogs game again like I did recently. You're kdding yourself and others here if you say the umps didn['t kill us that day.

I don't have to watch it again, I remember it quite clearly. We were 5 goals up (or thereabouts) and we lost. Comfortably. No one to blame except ourselves.

This whole umpire excuse thing is crap anyway, we were absolutely killed by umps in the 2011 elimination final, yet we still almost won! And we were more undermanned then we were for the Dogs game AND we played a far better team AND that included travelling to Perth.

And as for your last point, hmm, mes thinks you've just reiterated my points - the players know they can cruise past poor to average teams. When we come up against the Pies, when we have to do somethign we haven't done for years, that is when they pull it out.

I didn't disagree with everything you said, just the excuse making.

Remember the great Bris team didn't finish top when it won its flags, and the Cats have made an art form of cruising in seocnd and third gear and then pulling the big one out when needed. Nothign diff to how this young but seasoned CFC team are going about their business.

Yep, let's hope we can do the same but don't forget you're comparing us to teams that managed to win 3 premierships in a relatively very short amount of time. We've won ONE final in those 3 finals appearances. That's the reality, we should've won all 4 games but we didn't so I wouldn't be comparing us to the great Brisbane and Geelong teams just yet.

Also, I wouldn't call thumping Melbourne by 186 points and then thumping GC the very next week by 150 points second and third gear. Percentage is important and will probably be even more important this year when you look at how even the competition is.

Seriously, I cannot believe there are CFC supporters who can criticise when we are 2nd on the ladder, it beggars belief.

I said that being second is awesome! Sorry didn't know that was actually a form of criticism.

Also, remember we are second after only 6 rounds. Let's get excited about being second or first after 20 rounds.

You are deluded if you think in the modern game, with all the physical demands, that players will go 110% every week, esp when they play teams they know they are superior to.

Oh yeah like the Essendon game right?

And I don't think they will go 110% every single week, but now it's been 3 weeks in a row where they haven't. We almost lost 2 out of the last 3.

Watch C.Judd. Our hero. Tell me he doesn't pace himself ! It is bleedingly obvious he does, and now the team are.

Yes he does pace himself, but not 3 weeks in a row where he doesn't give his 110% effort, that's not pacing yourself that's poor form and that's the current predicament of our team!

CFC did this in 2011 as well. Game against Port a good example. Behind early, Then totally overran them.

This team know the challenges in 2012. Namely Coll, Hawks, WC, and to a lesser extent Cats. They will be up for these games and hopefully will take the next step.

The reigning premiers and team to beat over the past 5 years is to a lesser extent? lol. But I'm glad you've told me they will be up for these games because I certainly hope so.

In between they need to take care of business, which they have dione so far as they sit 2nd on the ladder, so stop being so pessimistic.

This thread is called setting up for a fall. I'm not the one who created it and if you read my first post in this thread you can clearly see that I agreed with the OP to a degree, but not entirely. I highlighted the good and bad of the season so far and what I want to see from our team for the rest of the season.

I even mention resting players so how you come to some wierd conclusion that I think the team will go 110% every week is amazing.

If you want to look at negatives, look maybe at our relative lack of depth in true on-ball;ers, and how we have lost the clearance count the last few weeks since Carrots has been out and last when when he and Judd and Ed were out. That's more a concern that the players and coaches knowing where they are at for heavens sakes.

Don't you tell me what to do, I'll look at whatever aspect of our season I want. The fact that we won the hitout counts and still lost clearances clearly shows a lack of effort not depth in our on ball brigade. Do you seriously think that with Judd, Carrots and Curnow out that GWS's on ball division was stronger than ours that still includes Murphy, Simpson, Scotland, Robinson, Ellard and Gibbs at times?

Man, Scully was held to less than 20 possessions and he's supposed to be their best mid. We didn't lack depth against GWS we lacked effort in that first half whether you want to admit it or not.

And one more thing, the coaches and players DON'T know where they're at right now. They won't until we play all of the remaining TOP 4 teams. The coaches and players even say so themselves that these are the games that indicate where they are at as a group.

 

[Jabba73]

Good to have you back in the discussion BB.

I can see where you are coming from but hope you are reading something into the situation that is not there. I would hate for the players to think they have achieved enough yet, or for the coach to think we only need to copy the Cats to be successful. We need to do what is right for our team in our circumstances.

I am not adverse to the coach actually being honest, just don't take it too far and appear arrogant.

At least it is a refreshing change from the days of Windy Hill Flu being responsible for team changes.

 

[Bluebear]

Told ya's so.

 

[laminex]

Told ya's so.

i agreed, our players think there shit dont stink.

 

[Bluebear]

How come every time someone has something negative to say everyone jumps on their back here? The OP has a point to a degree, although I don't think we're going to see this attitude last throughout the whole season it certainly needs to be addressed.

I feel like we started the season on a mission, we had something to prove. The media were writing us off based on our pre season form, so we were keen to shut them up and did so perfectly by beating the Tigers comfortably in the end (who were tipped to beat us) and then we belted Brisbane by 91 points at the Gabba in another game where many tipped against us. Then came the Pies, this was our true test to see where we were at and we passed it with flying colours. But after that, then what? It's like as if we've been content with what we've achieved so far this season and are happy to just coast through.

Then we come out complacent and get thumped by the Bombers, we go to Perth and are VERY lucky that we won especially considering it was one of the only matches where we were very accurate in front of goal and ultimately that's what won us the game. Then we take another complacent approach against the Giants and honestly I think we were embarrassed in that first half. Here's a team claiming the goal of the season is to finish top 4 and they produce that crap for a whole half to lead the worst team in the comp by just 10 points.

Resting players worked for Geelong, but we are not the powerhouse they were for the past 5 years. The Geelong players are more mature than our group, they know what it takes to win a flag and they had been through losing a GF, they are older and experienced not to go out there complacent.


This week against the Saints, I want to see a Carlton side that is focussed 100% on putting in a 4 qtr effort. I want to see them work hard for each other and play like we all know they can play. None of this complacent crap and then we will belt the shit out of them. Come out complacent in this one and we lose.

This is exactly what I was talking about.
The talk of what worked for Geelong last year.
Stevie J is quality enough to take a week off and come back and kick 6. Jarrod Waite is not.

We treated last week with contempt and like a training run, even referring to it as such in the media. This is what I picked up on, and it showed tonight. We can't just flick a switch, and next week vs Crows doesn't get any easier, and this isn't even our hard patch yet.

I agree re comments about starting the year with intensity, but he night vs Pies was our peak, and the boys have ome off the boil.

We should be on top of the ladder tonight undefeated. We have lost 2 games to sides we really should beat if we consider ourselves "genuine top 4".

I think that call was premature. I think our players have had a reality check. Against a team that has given us ome trouble, how they respond next week will be the test.

 

[Malifice]

Weak as piss today.

Way too many soft recievers waiting to capitalise on someone elses good work.

Playing like they believe their own hype.

Back to basics boys.

Try winning the ****ing football.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Not happy right now.

Not one bit.

No.

 

[DJMacca]

Kinda feel sick in the stomach

 

[Loramarthalas]

I have never thought it before tonight, but I can now see how it might turn ugly for Ratts if we lose a few more like this.

I've always thought he was the best man for the job, and he probably still is. But if we lose next week (likely, at this stage) and drop maybe 5 or 6 more through the year (again, likely), we would struggle to make top 4.

How far down the ladder would we have to slide before the media pressure really started to build on him?

 

[mediumsizered]

I have never thought it before tonight, but I can now see how it might turn ugly for Ratts if we lose a few more like this.

I've always thought he was the best man for the job, and he probably still is. But if we lose next week (likely, at this stage) and drop maybe 5 or 6 more through the year (again, likely), we would struggle to make top 4.

How far down the ladder would we have to slide before the media pressure really started to build on him?

It wouldn't take the media long to get stuck into Ratts if for some reason the Top 4 looks like being out of reach. The media & many of the Geelong faithful, & the Geelong board, got stuck into Bomber Thompson in 2006, after 2 good seasons in 2004 & 2005. He was a dead man walking before Frank Costa stepped in & saved him from the axe.

You just have to be very careful not to let the media dictate to you how to run your club. The intense media scrutiny could have cost the Cats 3 premierships if Costa hadn't have shown faith in Thompson.

 

[The Coach]

Our form was just so-so coming into this and we were playing an old bogey side needing a win to stay in touch. The $4.50 StK in a two horse race was ridiculous. Waite had been rested after a shocker the game before and we had some pretty ordinary types making up the 22. I will save my ranting (somewhat softened by the above) for the post match thread.

 

[Bluebear]

Don't stop now then, tell us more.

Clearly Geelong are gone after last week as are West Coast, Collingwood and Hawthorn don't look great either.
We've just clocked over the 30% mark of the season and we have it all mapped out already?

Well that's not really what my comments were about.

Put simply, I noticed we had been pretty poor for the last couple of weeks prior to the GWS game. Ratts has admitted as much after the Saints loss.

I felt the tone of language eminating from the CFC in the week leading up to that was arrogant. The comparisons to Geelong resting players and our own situation being the pinnacle of these comments. That was my opinion.

I predicted we were setting ourselves up for a fall. I made no comment as to how far or how long.

If you believe Monday night was not a fall then your opinion would seem to be at odds with the greater footbal communioty and myself, which is fine.

We'd want to turn things around pretty quickly attitude wise this week. The Crows usually give us trouble, they are playing hard, consistent football. Should we bring anything less than our A game we will not win.

Having said all that, I am happy with 5-2 to start the year. However, given our form in the first few weeks, IMHO, the two losses show a level of dishonesty about our group. We haven't cracked the mental hurdle yet of bringing the same intensity week in, week out.

That's what the great Geelong team was able to do, and that's why they could afford the luxury of resting players. They knew that whoever came into the team, was going to bring an intensity and workrate that matched the others, and that the others would not waiver and drop off.

BTW I don't agree with the comments re Ratts. I think he is doing a great job and moulding this team into a contender. I just don't think we are as far down that road as many, especially the journo's would have us believe - and the difference is mental attitude.

Cheers,
BB

 

[pumped]

Once again think there is great sense in what you are writing. Not sure either way about Ratts. I still get a sense that he is perhaps more suited to an assistant role than head coach but hope to be proven wrong. Having said this someone or some group at the club must take some responsibility for the lack in mental attitude or strength touched on in your post.It does seem to be the main thing holding us back and has been a long term problem in my opinion. The only player to me who seems abundant in mental toughness is Matthew Krueser.

Well that's not really what my comments were about.

Put simply, I noticed we had been pretty poor for the last couple of weeks prior to the GWS game. Ratts has admitted as much after the Saints loss.

I felt the tone of language eminating from the CFC in the week leading up to that was arrogant. The comparisons to Geelong resting players and our own situation being the pinnacle of these comments. That was my opinion.

I predicted we were setting ourselves up for a fall. I made no comment as to how far or how long.

If you believe Monday night was not a fall then your opinion would seem to be at odds with the greater footbal communioty and myself, which is fine.

We'd want to turn things around pretty quickly attitude wise this week. The Crows usually give us trouble, they are playing hard, consistent football. Should we bring anything less than our A game we will not win.

Having said all that, I am happy with 5-2 to start the year. However, given our form in the first few weeks, IMHO, the two losses show a level of dishonesty about our group. We haven't cracked the mental hurdle yet of bringing the same intensity week in, week out.

That's what the great Geelong team was able to do, and that's why they could afford the luxury of resting players. They knew that whoever came into the team, was going to bring an intensity and workrate that matched the others, and that the others would not waiver and drop off.

BTW I don't agree with the comments re Ratts. I think he is doing a great job and moulding this team into a contender. I just don't think we are as far down that road as many, especially the journo's would have us believe - and the difference is mental attitude.

Cheers,
BB

 

[Bluebear]

So we play a 1/4 and a half of footy vs Dees, and Walker is in the press doing some backslapping (IMO one of the worst offenders recently - intensity is pathetic), and Ratts is defending our game claiming the margin says we played well.......

.......we might still get out of gaol vs Port tonight, but if anyone still thinks at any point we are anything other than fighting for a position in the top 8 (not top 4) and that we can't afford to "rest" players, well, I'm open to your argument.

BTW, next 4 rounds............

 

[son of dominator]

BTW, next 4 rounds............

next 12 rounds

 

[dumb]

could argue we were phoning it in since the start of the pre-season. adelaide were honing their game, we might have been thinking it would be alright on the night.
personally - resting your players early in the year when top 4 spots, finals aren't even assured says it all.