Opinion Sliders and climbers

[Brains Trust66]

I think the Tigers will struggle , like the Dogs the year before , everything just went their way during the finals . Their nobody type players managed to kick goals at just the right time . They were extremely lucky imo . Surely they have used up all their luck . We have never had that sort of luck in the finals especially in the grand final.

Tigers to fall to 9th.

I’m going to put the Saints top 6 mainly because I am so biased I can’t help myself . But also I’m really excited to see what we can produce next year as our team is getting more experienced.


Can’t wait for 2018 season.

 

[StCicatriz]

Freo are a real threat to take the spot we are chasing in the finals ....
the way i see it WCE are the only sure things to fall out of the 8 next season that means the likes of Us , Freo, WB and Melbourne are all fighting for that one spot... i reckon its going to be a real tight season and it will prob come down to the last game in round 23 to see how the finals shape up

I reckon Adelaide might slide along with Richmond and Geelong. Question is by how much

 

[austinnn]

Port, Dees and ugh; Bombers to climb.

Eagles, Bulldogs, Swans, Tigers to fall.

 

[VDS66]

All Sydney grand final.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

I reckon Adelaide might slide along with Richmond and Geelong. Question is by how much

i honestly cant see Geelong sliding ... not this year at least ... the cliff is coming for geelong but i think they have one maybe two seasons left before they well and truely fall off the edge of that cliff... for me Geelong are the team that will beat up on most teams during the season they will muster up a top 4 spot but come finals for all their Gablangerwood hype it will be the putrid bottom 6 players they have in their 22 that will see them fall short of a flag...

The Crows i reckon might carry some emotional baggage from this year so it will either a) spur them on to take another shot at it or b) have them fall in a bundle ... they are really well coached i rate Pyke highly so i can see him getting them up again but again it will come down to their big players having big moments in big games , Tex wouldnt want to have a stinker like grandfinal day again but i think the fear of not performing again on the big stage will have him not perform again .. they will make finals but i cant see them getting to the big dance again

Richmond i reckon the message over the offseason has been "lets not make this a one off" they are possibly the weakest flag team we have seen for a long long time but maybe some of that is from our envy that they did on their first shot what we took a decade to fall agonisingly short at.. they had a #blessed finals series no doubt but they did do enough during the year to earn that spot in the finals realistically i can see them doing enough to earn their spot in the finals again but god damn if they get a red carpet finals run again then the footy gods are confirmed as bastards ...

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

All Sydney grand final.

im leaning that way as well... Geelong and Richmond falling short in prelims ..

 

[gringo2011]

Freo are a real threat to take the spot we are chasing in the finals ....
the way i see it WCE are the only sure things to fall out of the 8 next season that means the likes of Us , Freo, WB and Melbourne are all fighting for that one spot... i reckon its going to be a real tight season and it will prob come down to the last game in round 23 to see how the finals shape up

Freo have a huge home ground advantage but still lack a bit of quality. They look a bit patchwork to me and can see them hanging around mid table for a while. Carlton and North should be bottom 4 and GC are hard to have any confidence in but the rest of the teams have plenty of potential improvement

 

[gringo2011]

Tipping adelaide to finish mid table, probably bottom half of the 8 or just missing.

Interesting year for them I reckon. They have a couple of good players in but lost a couple. It will come down to psychology and injury, we mentally collapsed after getting close a couple of times. You wonder if they can put themselves through it again. They have been the best H&A team for 2 years though.

 

[Moral Decay]

Dancing on the Ceiling.
Port, Crows, Giants, Cats, Tigers.

Sliding like kids at Water World.
Collingwood, the Nathan Buckley Experience to continue unabated.
Essendon, tougher draw, everyone is taking notice, the wrong recruits, no one to win contested ball in the midfield.
West Coast, as everyone has noted.

Shuffling the deck chairs.
Freo, Carlton, Brisbane, GC, North.

The Magical Mystery Tour.
Saints, Doggies, Hawks, Sydney, Dees.

 

[austinnn]

Freo have a huge home ground advantage but still lack a bit of quality. They look a bit patchwork to me and can see them hanging around mid table for a while. Carlton and North should be bottom 4 and GC are hard to have any confidence in but the rest of the teams have plenty of potential improvement

Ross Lyon will never win a premiership and that's not envy speaking, that's just simple opinion. His teams will sometimes get thereabouts and often look unbeatable, but it requires absolutely watertight performances from all his players and the Lyoncage can't manage the anomalies that a grand final often throws up due to the enormity of the occasion.

His low-scoring style of football makes it incredibly difficult in the big games, unless he's lucky enough to come up against a team with next to no fight, which doesn't usually happen in a GF. We saw exactly what happened in 2009/2010: the margin for error is so small and it just takes a momentary switch of fortune for a Lyon team to fall behind.

I wish we hadnt had to go through it ourselves to realise.

 

[gringo2011]

Ross Lyon will never win a premiership and that's not envy speaking, that's just simple opinion. His teams will sometimes get thereabouts and often look unbeatable, but it requires absolutely watertight performances from all his players and the Lyoncage can't manage the anomalies that a grand final often throws up due to the enormity of the occasion.

His low-scoring style of football makes it incredibly difficult in the big games, unless he's lucky enough to come up against a team with next to no fight, which doesn't usually happen in a GF. We saw exactly what happened in 2009/2010: the margin for error is so small and it just takes a momentary switch of fortune for a Lyon team to fall behind.

I wish we hadnt had to go through it ourselves to realise.

Hard to say never, a very large part comes down to injury and luck on the day. Lyon has some very good traits but it's true that his game plan isn't conducive to putting teams mentally on the back foot.

 

[Saint Watto]

Richmond. Premiership hangover, doubt they'll still have that hunger to hunt the man.

And surely they won't have the same amazing run/luck with injuries !

Their run this season was absolutely incredible.

 

[borderbarry]

Richmond may slip a bit.
Adelaide to remain steady.
Sydney to finish from 2 to 5.
GWS to finish 3 to 6
Port to finish top 4.
Saints, Dees, Dons, and Doggies to fight for positions 6, 7 and 8.

 

[borderbarry]

And Hawks to give a few of the top teams a fright.

 

[Rabbit58]

Sliders:

West Coast - Will struggle to win games especially contested ball with them having a very soft midfield (13-15)
Crows - Arguably their best defender gone who intercepted everything and kick started their attacks (5-8)
GWS - Losing a few good players which will test their depth and dont have the best luck with injuries (4-6)

Climbers:

Melbourne - Have got a very very good midfield and strengthen their defensive unit with Lever also Hogan to bounce back (4-6)
Essendon - Massive trade period for them with Stringer,Smith and Saad. If they can play to form will be challenging for top 4

The ??
Bulldogs - Can they recover from massive of field issues that pretty much killed their season. Young enough to have key players improve
Saints - Will the group of Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Steele take the next step. Most potential to improve from all youngsters, but potential is a dirty word

Thank goodness you said potential and not ego
I apologise to all you young’uns out there
Actually I apologise to everyone...helped the daughter move and I’m on the couch icing all the sore bits

 

[austinnn]

By the end of 2018 H&A, the the ladder will look like this:

Power
Crows
Giants
Demons
Tigers
Bombers
Saints
Bulldogs

Cats
Swans
Dockers
Hawks
Blues
Eagles
Lions
Magpies
Suns
Kangaroos

 

[Brains Trust66]

i honestly cant see Geelong sliding ... not this year at least ... the cliff is coming for geelong but i think they have one maybe two seasons left before they well and truely fall off the edge of that cliff... for me Geelong are the team that will beat up on most teams during the season they will muster up a top 4 spot but come finals for all their Gablangerwood hype it will be the putrid bottom 6 players they have in their 22 that will see them fall short of a flag...

The Crows i reckon might carry some emotional baggage from this year so it will either a) spur them on to take another shot at it or b) have them fall in a bundle ... they are really well coached i rate Pyke highly so i can see him getting them up again but again it will come down to their big players having big moments in big games , Tex wouldnt want to have a stinker like grandfinal day again but i think the fear of not performing again on the big stage will have him not perform again .. they will make finals but i cant see them getting to the big dance again

Richmond i reckon the message over the offseason has been "lets not make this a one off" they are possibly the weakest flag team we have seen for a long long time but maybe some of that is from our envy that they did on their first shot what we took a decade to fall agonisingly short at.. they had a #blessed finals series no doubt but they did do enough during the year to earn that spot in the finals realistically i can see them doing enough to earn their spot in the finals again but god damn if they get a red carpet finals run again then the footy gods are confirmed as bastards ...

The cats will be top 4 for the next season or so but I see a big fall coming . Ablett has one or two years probably left , might scratch out a third but he’s passed his best anyway . Cats supporters think it’s the second coming but with injuries and age the game is catching up with him . Once Selwood and Dangerfield start to struggle with injuries and age then guys like Hawkins will be gone too . That’s when I think they will slide down as there is a big gap in class and ability between their current players and the next generation , IMO.


Can’t wait for 2018 season.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Ross Lyon will never win a premiership and that's not envy speaking, that's just simple opinion. His teams will sometimes get thereabouts and often look unbeatable, but it requires absolutely watertight performances from all his players and the Lyoncage can't manage the anomalies that a grand final often throws up due to the enormity of the occasion.

His low-scoring style of football makes it incredibly difficult in the big games, unless he's lucky enough to come up against a team with next to no fight, which doesn't usually happen in a GF. We saw exactly what happened in 2009/2010: the margin for error is so small and it just takes a momentary switch of fortune for a Lyon team to fall behind.

I wish we hadnt had to go through it ourselves to realise.

sorry i disagree with this ... 2009 a toe poke in the dying stages and in 2010 a dodgy bounce cost lyon a flag .. his game play wasnt the reason we didnt see Rooey holding up the cup it was just a case of bad fortune at the most vital moments .. even in his grand final with Freo his team heading into the last stages of the game were within reach of getting that flag ... Flags are damn hard to win and it takes a lot of luck ontop of the game plan and performance to get the win unfortunatly for ross he hasnt had the luck on his side in 3 of the 4 grand finals and in that fourth where we got destroyed he not only didnt have the luck but the performance was not there ....
compare him to Adam Simpson who had no answer to hawthorn on grand final day , to John Longmire who couldnt contain the dogs , to Don Pyke who couldnt get his players up to take on Richmond.. Ross's game plan and coaching at least gives his teams a shot .. saying his coaching doesnt work in grand finals is a bit like the saying St Kildas culture would let it win a grand final ... its all just fluff to serve as a dig at the man/the club

 

[StCicatriz]

sorry i disagree with this ... 2009 a toe poke in the dying stages and in 2010 a dodgy bounce cost lyon a flag .. his game play wasnt the reason we didnt see Rooey holding up the cup it was just a case of bad fortune at the most vital moments .. even in his grand final with Freo his team heading into the last stages of the game were within reach of getting that flag ... Flags are damn hard to win and it takes a lot of luck ontop of the game plan and performance to get the win unfortunatly for ross he hasnt had the luck on his side in 3 of the 4 grand finals and in that fourth where we got destroyed he not only didnt have the luck but the performance was not there ....
compare him to Adam Simpson who had no answer to hawthorn on grand final day , to John Longmire who couldnt contain the dogs , to Don Pyke who couldnt get his players up to take on Richmond.. Ross's game plan and coaching at least gives his teams a shot .. saying his coaching doesnt work in grand finals is a bit like the saying St Kildas culture would let it win a grand final ... its all just fluff to serve as a dig at the man/the club

to throw a cat among the pigeons, was it even ross lyon's game plan?

however i don't buy the stuff in bold at all. the last time ross lyon was competitive in a grand final where he looked like winning was in 2010. hawthorn controlled 2013 for pretty 3/4 of the game, he was picked apart with a short possession based game that meant his side was basically ineffective. thats 7 seasons of football. thats a LONG LONG LONG time and to be honest i don't think ross is big on innovation. to put it in comparison, it would be like me arguing at the end of 2006 that we should hire Kevin Sheedy because he was a premiership winning coach. but the reality is by that point he was well past it, accumulating in the issues essendon is just now starting to get over. the game has been through i think 3-4 different iterations since 2010. i think ross is still stuck with what he got some tudor in 2008. he tried to be more hawthorn which he confessed to failing. he tried to be more managerial like a clarkson which he confessed to failing. the only real tick that i can give him was him sending down the opposition analysts to work out what port was doing when they burst onto the scene. he worked out they moved their training schedule around which allowed for more load. he implemented it for 1 season and got some competitive results but he still looked miles off it.

i'm big on this but the greatest trick ross ever pulled was convincing everyone that his side needs a rebuild. its an absolute joke. he's basically saying "look we are good enough to be playing, we have a really good core group of players, give me some more ready made players and we'll get there by 2020" whilst at the same time telling everyone "look we are no good, we need to rebuild, i can't get the results out of this group because the list isnt there". the best example of this was after their pre-season game vs west coast where they got absolutely flogged he rambled off this crap about having "duel narratives"

we are now in an era where midfield means everything. fremantle have a top 6 midfield, far superior to ours, yet they still cant get out of the bottom 6. something is seriously seriously broken down there.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

thats an interesting point of veiw ... you may be right but what i go off is the comments made by the guys who havebeen coached by him.... Pavlich openly admits he wished he had Ross coaching him from day 1 Rooey rates him as his best game day tactical coach...
as for inovation from my experiance behind the curtain i reckon ross is one of the more innovative coaches going around .. i mean he is a stats junky he plows over stats and KPI's pretty much all day everyday to find where they can exploit that extra 1% out of team.. he is ultra defensive yes but thats due to his success with that i dont really buy into the whole one trick pony stuff as i think if Ross finds a better approach that works best for his side he would be doing that....

 

[gringo2011]

to throw a cat among the pigeons, was it even ross lyon's game plan?

however i don't buy the stuff in bold at all. the last time ross lyon was competitive in a grand final where he looked like winning was in 2010. hawthorn controlled 2013 for pretty 3/4 of the game, he was picked apart with a short possession based game that meant his side was basically ineffective. thats 7 seasons of football. thats a LONG LONG LONG time and to be honest i don't think ross is big on innovation. to put it in comparison, it would be like me arguing at the end of 2006 that we should hire Kevin Sheedy because he was a premiership winning coach. but the reality is by that point he was well past it, accumulating in the issues essendon is just now starting to get over. the game has been through i think 3-4 different iterations since 2010. i think ross is still stuck with what he got some tudor in 2008. he tried to be more hawthorn which he confessed to failing. he tried to be more managerial like a clarkson which he confessed to failing. the only real tick that i can give him was him sending down the opposition analysts to work out what port was doing when they burst onto the scene. he worked out they moved their training schedule around which allowed for more load. he implemented it for 1 season and got some competitive results but he still looked miles off it.

i'm big on this but the greatest trick ross ever pulled was convincing everyone that his side needs a rebuild. its an absolute joke. he's basically saying "look we are good enough to be playing, we have a really good core group of players, give me some more ready made players and we'll get there by 2020" whilst at the same time telling everyone "look we are no good, we need to rebuild, i can't get the results out of this group because the list isnt there". the best example of this was after their pre-season game vs west coast where they got absolutely flogged he rambled off this crap about having "duel narratives"

we are now in an era where midfield means everything. fremantle have a top 6 midfield, far superior to ours, yet they still cant get out of the bottom 6. something is seriously seriously broken down there.

I would say he's never had a team that was the best that year good. 2009 was his best chance and he had some significant injuries at bad times and an opposition that had done it before and knew how to win psychologically. There was a few other things went against us too, the goal Hawkins a few lucky plays to Geelong etc. Still Rooke scored a goal after the siren and the game would have been decidedly by very little if the Hawkins goal had been called a point.

 

[austinnn]

sorry i disagree with this ... 2009 a toe poke in the dying stages and in 2010 a dodgy bounce cost lyon a flag .. his game play wasnt the reason we didnt see Rooey holding up the cup it was just a case of bad fortune at the most vital moments ...

... Ross's game plan and coaching at least gives his teams a shot .. saying his coaching doesnt work in grand finals is a bit like the saying St Kildas culture would let it win a grand final ... its all just fluff to serve as a dig at the man/the club

The first paragraph is my whole point. A dodgy bounce undid a season. And why? Because the type of footy we played kept the game so close that the front runner could be overtaken easily.

As far as the 2009 GF goes, we had loads of chances to put the game beyond Geelong: how many goals did Milne and Schneider miss? That wasn't gameplan of course, but those type of low scoring cagey affairs are what Lyon seems to love. After the devil-may-care style of GT it was what we needed, but it was our undoing as we just weren't as precise as a Lyon team needs to be for ultimate success. No margin for error.

You'll always get close with a Lyon team but until he can populate his team with 22 faultless androids, he'll never win the big one. Or if you guys insist, he'll always give the opposition a chance. And in a grand final a chance is all you need.

Not sour grapes talking, wish him well, if he proves me wrong I won't mind. I don't even have a particular problem with Freo really. The past is the past and we're in a better place now I believe. I have no continuing wish to see Lyon fail and he if he does win a cup with Freo, I'll feel a little jealous but not resentful. He's an alright guy and been in the game long enough I'd like to see him get something out of it one day. But he'll have to change his style.

Pavlich and Riewoldt may think he's fantastic, and those guys are perfectionists so they probably feel the teams let Ross down on the day, and that's right: they let him down by making mistakes. But Ross let them down for training the team to play a style of football that any mistake cost the team enormously.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

The first paragraph is my whole point. A dodgy bounce undid a season. And why? Because the type of footy we played kept the game so close that the front runner could be overtaken easily.

As far as the 2009 GF goes, we had loads of chances to put the game beyond Geelong: how many goals did Milne and Schneider miss? That wasn't gameplan of course, but those type of low scoring cagey affairs are what Lyon seems to love. After the devil-may-care style of GT it was what we needed, but it was our undoing as we just weren't as precise as a Lyon team needs to be for ultimate success. No margin for error.

You'll always get close with a Lyon team but until he can populate his team with 22 faultless androids, he'll never win the big one. Or if you guys insist, he'll always give the opposition a chance. And in a grand final a chance is all you need.

Not sour grapes talking, wish him well, if he proves me wrong I won't mind. I don't even have a particular problem with Freo really. The past is the past and we're in a better place now I believe. I have no continuing wish to see Lyon fail and he if he does win a cup with Freo, I'll feel a little jealous but not resentful. He's an alright guy and been in the game long enough I'd like to see him get something out of it one day. But he'll have to change his style.

Pavlich and Riewoldt may think he's fantastic, and those guys are perfectionists so they probably feel the teams let Ross down on the day, and that's right: they let him down by making mistakes. But Ross let them down for training the team to play a style of football that any mistake cost the team enormously.

its a bit of the glass half full glass half empty situation ... playing a ultra defensive game equally keeps you in the game as much as it keeps the opponent in the game .. i can tell you for a fact the game plan was about stopping the other team scoring there was no memo on keeping it close .. ross would love nothing more than to have the team kick 25 goals and keep the opponent down to 4 goals for the game ...
you are missing the whole point that the reason the game was so damn close was because both teams were so damn good ...i think the fact that the last couple grand finals have been fizzers with one team really not turning up to play after half time has given you some sort of thinking that this is the norm... in 2009 we have quite possibly the two toughest most ruthless teams going head to head for that flag in the history of the game we are talking two teams who won over near on 20 games in one season each .. the game was always going to be close.. we took control they lifted they took control we lifted .. yeah we missed some sitters but im a firm believer even if we had nailed those goals Geelong would have still kept coming.. 2010 we were the weaker of the two teams but we kept coming Collingwood missed shots and we kept coming again it was two teams not giving an inch it was tight and close not because of the game plan but because neither team wanted to lose so much so that come the replay we had nothing left... that 3 year period Geelong , Us and Collingwood won 54(G) 52(C) and 47(S) games so dominant were the three teams at the same time the idea of anyone outside of these three winning a flag was insane ...

you mention out game style under GT and yeah we kicked heaps of goals but we also fell short in finals due to our lack of ability to put the breaks on a team surging ... in my opinion if we had Lyon and his defensive stratagy in 2004 and 2005 theres no way Port and the Swans over run us in prelims... but again its all speculation ...

 

[Human Person]

Swans started 2017 in putrid form, and for some reason I can see their 2018 starting the same way. Hawks have a few great players in the team, but they could fall to the bottom 4.

I don’t see Adelaide sliding. Out of the top 2 perhaps but they stay in the 8 at the very least.

 

[pebblesofsand]

its a bit of the glass half full glass half empty situation ... playing a ultra defensive game equally keeps you in the game as much as it keeps the opponent in the game .. i can tell you for a fact the game plan was about stopping the other team scoring there was no memo on keeping it close .. ross would love nothing more than to have the team kick 25 goals and keep the opponent down to 4 goals for the game ...
you are missing the whole point that the reason the game was so damn close was because both teams were so damn good ...i think the fact that the last couple grand finals have been fizzers with one team really not turning up to play after half time has given you some sort of thinking that this is the norm... in 2009 we have quite possibly the two toughest most ruthless teams going head to head for that flag in the history of the game we are talking two teams who won over near on 20 games in one season each .. the game was always going to be close.. we took control they lifted they took control we lifted .. yeah we missed some sitters but im a firm believer even if we had nailed those goals Geelong would have still kept coming.. 2010 we were the weaker of the two teams but we kept coming Collingwood missed shots and we kept coming again it was two teams not giving an inch it was tight and close not because of the game plan but because neither team wanted to lose so much so that come the replay we had nothing left... that 3 year period Geelong , Us and Collingwood won 54(G) 52(C) and 47(S) games so dominant were the three teams at the same time the idea of anyone outside of these three winning a flag was insane ...

you mention out game style under GT and yeah we kicked heaps of goals but we also fell short in finals due to our lack of ability to put the breaks on a team surging ... in my opinion if we had Lyon and his defensive stratagy in 2004 and 2005 theres no way Port and the Swans over run us in prelims... but again its all speculation ...

Yep if our opponents in the 1997, 2009 and 2010 had played like Adelaide played in 2017 GF we would have 3 more premierships and we would have been as happy as the proverbial pigs in S****.