Club Focus St Kilda 2025

[Ticky009]

Data from footywire. To check the draft order see the thread here.

Footywire says: "While we make every effort to keep up to date with player contracts, it is likely that our data may at times be out of date, incomplete or inaccurate. If you find any player contracts that need updating, please let us know using our brand new contract submission form."

 

[bird_man]

These stories have something in common but I just can't quite put my finger on what​

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The Pies have been thrown into ‘chaos’ — and these disastrous deals are to blame​

"While Guy is the overall list manager, he can’t be the only man at fault. Graeme ‘Gubby’ Allen and current national recruiting manager Derek Hine have been part of the club’s rise up the ladder, which could crash down in 2021.

Guy wasn’t involved in the moves that brought Levi Greenwood, Daniel Wells and Chris Mayne to the club on overpriced deals, with the Pies forced to pay top dollar for their stars."

Collingwood is a pretty poor comparison when you look at the details. St Kilda have been front loading contracts for three years just to get to the 95% base. In fact we even paid some of our bigger named players bonuses that weren't included in their original contracts. It has been reported that if we didn't bring in recruits we would have been paying around 80% which we can't actually do.

So the two options would have been to pay everyone already signed a contract bonuses to get to 95% or to pay up and bring in recruits. It's completely different to the scenario Collingwood found themselves in.

 

[Elixuh]

Collingwood is a pretty poor comparison when you look at the details. St Kilda have been front loading contracts for three years just to get to the 95% base. In fact we even paid some of our bigger named players bonuses that weren't included in their original contracts. It has been reported that if we didn't bring in recruits we would have been paying around 80% which we can't actually do.

So the two options would have been to pay everyone already signed a contract bonuses to get to 95% or to pay up and bring in recruits. It's completely different to the scenario Collingwood found themselves in.

What happens when those front loaded contracts end? Do the Saints have the cap to re-sign those players if they’ve also got these other big contracts? Or is this a 3 year tilt at a flag?

 

[BrutThough]

But you don’t. That’s the point most people keep making.

You can’t have everyone in your best 23 on $850k plus, because you can’t fit the rest of your list under the TPP, and that will cap you out 3 years from now.

It might be sustainable right now and next year, but it’s not sustainable for the life span of all the 5 year contracts you hand out this trade period. Or next year. Even if you have banked an extra 5% of the salary cap for the next 3 years.

As soon as you’re 2023 and 2024 draftees start asking for pay raises on their first non draftee contracts, you’re in trouble or you start losing your role players.

And that’s going to occur during the lifespan of the 5 year contracts you hand out this year and next year.

If pundits on Bigfooty have figured out money will need to be saved for the draftees next contracts, dont you think the professional list managers who have decades of experience in this space have also worked that out and are making list management decisions with that in mind?

 

[BrutThough]

What happens when those front loaded contracts end? Do the Saints have the cap to re-sign those players if they’ve also got these other big contracts? Or is this a 3 year tilt at a flag?

When most of those contracts end, so will the players careers given their age. Or they will be a lesser 1-2 year deals that won't need special planning to accommodate.

 

[Foxman98]

What happens when those front loaded contracts end? Do the Saints have the cap to re-sign those players if they’ve also got these other big contracts? Or is this a 3 year tilt at a flag?

Well last time we got Adam Treloar for an F2 and Collingwood paid him 300k a year for 5 years to do so,

I don't think the Saints fans have realised yet that this went **** up because everyone at Collingwood actually ended up good and earning the bigger contracts which wasn't planned for hence it went **** up,

They either don't all kick on and they don't win nor compete for a flag or they all click and work out and the cap gets stuffed

 

[Elixuh]

Well last time we got Adam Treloar for an F2 and Collingwood paid him 300k a year for 5 years to do so,

I don't think the Saints fans have realised yet that this went ** up because everyone at Collingwood actually ended up good and earing the bigger contracts which wasn't planned for hence it went ** up,

They either don't all kick on and they don't win nor compete for a flag or they all click and work out and the cap gets stuffed

That’s my worry

 

[VDS66]

But you don’t. That’s the point most people keep making.

You can’t have everyone in your best 23 on $850k plus, because you can’t fit the rest of your list under the TPP, and that will cap you out 3 years from now.

It might be sustainable right now and next year, but it’s not sustainable for the life span of all the 5 year contracts you hand out this trade period. Or next year. Even if you have banked an extra 5% of the salary cap for the next 3 years.

As soon as you’re 2023 and 2024 draftees start asking for pay raises on their first non draftee contracts, you’re in trouble or you start losing your role players.

And that’s going to occur during the lifespan of the 5 year contracts you hand out this year and next year.

The real question to be asked is how did you get access to the club's data? You obviously know eeverything that's going on...

 

[bird_man]

What happens when those front loaded contracts end? Do the Saints have the cap to re-sign those players if they’ve also got these other big contracts? Or is this a 3 year tilt at a flag?

Most of the front loaded contracts were reportedly from our older crew, so there is a fair chance they either finish up or sign smaller contracts. I can't see any of them demanding the same contract they had signed previously.

We were still paying Brad Crouch last year despite him being forced into retirement as well as paying a fair chunk of Jack Billings contract.

Marshall will be gone
Steele possibly gone
We took on all of Jack MaCraes contract from the dogs, you would think he will likely retire or sign for significantly less in two years time.
Sinclair and King will be both 32 by the time their contract is up.

 

[Elixuh]

Most of the front loaded contracts were reportedly from our older crew, so there is a fair chance they either finish up or sign smaller contracts. I can't see any of them demanding the same contract they had signed previously.

We were still paying Brad Crouch last year despite him being forced into retirement as well as paying a fair chunk of Jack Billings contract.

Marshall will be gone
Steele possibly gone
We took on all of Jack MaCraes contract from the dogs, you would think he will likely retire or sign for significantly less in two years time.
Sinclair and King will be both 32 by the time their contract is up.

Steele is the one that is interesting. Even on lower output is still a great defensive mid option for the Saints and if his deal was front loaded then we are just hitting those lean years now.

 

[bird_man]

Steele is the one that is interesting. Even on lower output is still a great defensive mid option for the Saints and if his deal was front loaded then we are just hitting those lean years now.

Love Steele, but his fall from grace has been massive. On current form, I can't think of too many clubs he'd get a game at.

He played as a genuine mid all year and averaged 20 touches a game. Outside of tackling he had very little impact.

Maybe he can find form again, but at this stage I'm not sure how anyone would think he's best 22 with us. Flanders will come in and play midfield and we expect Philippou to go straight in there if he can stay injury free.

I'd actually love for Jack to stay and fight for his spot but there's a fair chance he is playing VFL if he does.

 

[Elixuh]

Love Steele, but his fall from grace has been massive. On current form, I can't think of too many clubs he'd get a game at.

He played as a genuine mid all year and averaged 20 touches a game. Outside of tackling he had very little impact.

Maybe he can find form again, but at this stage I'm not sure how anyone would think he's best 22 with us. Flanders will come in and play midfield and we expect Philippou to go straight in there if he can stay injury free.

I'd actually love for Jack to stay and fight for his spot but there's a fair chance he is playing VFL if he does.

I find this fascinating. Dunkley just won our B&F and if you compare Dunkleys season averages with Steele they’re comparable.

I’m genuinely surprised with the way Saints fans are describing Steele.

 

[GeTrain]

Well last time we got Adam Treloar for an F2 and Collingwood paid him 300k a year for 5 years to do so,

I don't think the Saints fans have realised yet that this went ** up because everyone at Collingwood actually ended up good and earning the bigger contracts which wasn't planned for hence it went ** up,

They either don't all kick on and they don't win nor compete for a flag or they all click and work out and the cap gets stuffed

Wasn't the issue with Collingwood that they kept pushing money back on players deals plus the massive Grundy extension? Not really relevant to the Saints situation since we've been struggling to even hit the cap floor.

 

[bird_man]

I find this fascinating. Dunkley just won our B&F and if you compare Dunkleys season averages with Steele they’re comparable.

I’m genuinely surprised with the way Saints fans are describing Steele.

Have you actually watched Steele or are you just looking at the stats?

Yes, his stats were low despite not being the tagger (which was mostly Windhager when needed) but he had very little impact on games for most of the year.

 

[Foxman98]

Wasn't the issue with Collingwood that they kept pushing money back on players deals plus the massive Grundy extension? Not really relevant to the Saints situation since we've been struggling to even hit the cap floor.

Which they had to do because Moore/Maynard/Howe/Crisp/Ellitott all kicked on better then expected

 

[Elixuh]

Have you actually watched Steele or are you just looking at the stats?

Yes, his stats were low despite not being the tagger (which was mostly Windhager when needed) but he had very little impact on games for most of the year.

Stats are stats I agree. But you’re claiming he wouldn’t get a game and Dunkley won out B&F in a premiership year. There has to be some middle ground and perhaps a new role for Steele.

 

[bird_man]

Stats are stats I agree. But you’re claiming he wouldn’t get a game and Dunkley won out B&F in a premiership year. There has to be some middle ground and perhaps a new role for Steele.

What I'm saying is that his and Dunkley a seasons were clearly a fair way apart, despite what your stats say.

Steele didn't even make the top ten in the club best and fairest despite playing a full year in the midfield. We had young mids like NWM and Windhager fly past him while MaCrae took his place as the number one ball pig.

Throw in the fact that our most promising young mid going into 2025 missed most of the year and returned as a forward and the fact we have recruited Flanders who has played his best footy as a midfielder.

So I'm not sure how my claim that Steele would struggle to be best 22 next year is controversial?

 

[Elixuh]

What I'm saying is that his and Dunkley a seasons were clearly a fair way apart, despite what your stats say.

Steele didn't even make the top ten in the club best and fairest despite playing a full year in the midfield. We had young mids like NWM and Windhager fly past him while MaCrae took his place as the number one ball pig.

Throw in the fact that our most promising young mid going into 2025 missed most of the year and returned as a forward and the fact we have recruited Flanders who has played his best footy as a midfielder.

So I'm not sure how my claim that Steele would struggle to be best 22 next year is controversial?

I forgot about Windhager. Perhaps he goes past Steele. I was trying to think who the Saints mids are outside NWM and who would play the defensive mid role. NWM was literally the only Saints mid I could name.

 

[Elixuh]

The real question to be asked is how did you get access to the club's data? You obviously know eeverything that's going on...

What Briztoon said is true when talking about the risk of this strategy. It’s partly the reason Collingwood got into the mess it did. And Collingwood is probably one of the only clubs in the league who were able to restructure and bail the water out of the ship before it sunk.

If it happened to a club like the Lions were would be stuffed.

 

[billings2paddy]

Collingwood hadn't paid 95% of the salary cap for three years and thus banking cash also jujusmaking it to paying the minimum this year of 95%

Saints are the first club to use this strategy effectively but they wont be the last.

 

[bird_man]

What Briztoon said is true when talking about the risk of this strategy. It’s partly the reason Collingwood got into the mess it did. And Collingwood is probably one of the only clubs in the league who were able to restructure and bail the water out of the ship before it sunk.

If it happened to a club like the Lions were would be stuffed.

It's been mentioned a few times but you seem to want to double down on it.

Collingwood didn't have three years previous where they front ended contracts and gave players bonuses just to get to 95%

in fact they did the opposite and back ended contracts to fit all the players in while they were competing.

It's a really poor comparison.

 

[Elixuh]

It's been mentioned a few times but you seem to want to double down on it.

Collingwood didn't have three years previous where they front ended contracts and gave players bonuses just to get to 95%

in fact they did the opposite and back ended contracts to fit all the players in while they were competing.

It's a really poor comparison.

Pies were just a few years ahead of where the saints may get to. But I hope it works out for the saints, I really do

 

[Falchoon]

Well last time we got Adam Treloar for an F2 and Collingwood paid him 300k a year for 5 years to do so,

I don't think the Saints fans have realised yet that this went ** up because everyone at Collingwood actually ended up good and earning the bigger contracts which wasn't planned for hence it went ** up,

They either don't all kick on and they don't win nor compete for a flag or they all click and work out and the cap gets stuffed

so the fallout is we may end up with too many good players and need to shed some? like Collingwood?

It doesn't sound too bad

To be frank, shedding a premiership best and fairest, brownlow runner up and number 1 pick over 3 years and finishing 9th twice sounds scarier.

 

[Foxman98]

so the fallout is we may end up with too many good players and need to shed some? like Collingwood?

It doesn't sound too bad

To be frank, shedding a premiership best and fairest, brownlow runner up and number 1 pick over 3 years and finishing 9th twice sounds scarier.

Who finished 9th twice?

When the premiership is 8 years old doesn't really hold much weight, Best and Fairest was 5 years ago game went past him, Brownlow runner up already showing the personality cracks that made him unliked amongst players, Number 1 pick annoying if only said team had 2 200cm+ F/S KPF to replace him

 

[Falchoon]

I find this fascinating. Dunkley just won our B&F and if you compare Dunkleys season averages with Steele they’re comparable.

I’m genuinely surprised with the way Saints fans are describing Steele.

3 points

• trajectory, Steele's output is declining
• The need to build other's into that role for 2-5 years in the future (Windhager/ Garcia etc), ie we're not dominating with Steele in current state.
• Post contest, Steele is equivalent to Dunkley in close, the spread provides a differential , ie some spread stats.

 

[Falchoon]

Who finished 9th twice?

Dogs 2023 and 2025