St Kilda complain about priority draft access in Oct 2024; now set to gain priority access to a first / second round pick via their NGA access

[VinnieB]

But people defending the academies have said that about why they exist. It's one of the two reasons I would support keeping the northern academies, limited to one player outside the draft per season: players who otherwise would play other sports, and homegrown heroes. Those are identifiable benefits to the game at large.

The father-son rule and the NGA academies (as currently constituted) provide no benefit to the game.

FS is unique to AFL. AFL is still a game where players are generally loyal. Fans can follow their favourite players who generally end up 1 club players for the majority, if not all, of their careers. FS adds to that. It doesn't favour any club. Most past players probably have kids. Collingwood has no more advantage than St Kilda.

NGA I totally agree with given its purpose should be to introduce and develop kids who, culturally, wouldn't have much exposure to footy. The fact that even David Rodan's son qualifies as both FS and NGA is ridiculous. Make no mistake, NGA was designed for Victoiran clubs because of the whining against QLD and NSW Academies. Your club should be happy with that.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

That was a disastrous draft for us. To have pick 8 and 10 and both busts. Actually, we traded Freeman (who couldn't get on the ground with severe hamstring issues), to St Kilda for a 2nd round pick after 2 seasons because they offered him guaranteed $$ for 3 yrs. He played 2 games for them, to add to his tally of 0 at Collingwood.

Both were never the same after injury. Freeman before his injury could literally have been anything unfortunately lost all his speed. As for Matt those feet issues are just so hard especially for a KPP.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I disagree with your assessment that my proposed changes would make the draft more unequal.

It would basically be a VFL, and you’d have players 10 times refusing to go interstate it already happens by the truckload every year. You recon GWS didn’t want to take Chad Wingard for instance? You bet they did but he practically refused to be drafted.

The academy allows these clubs to limit some of the strain of go home.

If you guarantee a NBA type of trade system I recon more people would get around limits on academy and pure drafts- in other words you want to go back to Melbourne that’s fine but we as a club unless you are F/A can send you to whatever club in Melbourne for the best deal none of this nominating clubs that’s just making the situation worse!

 

[The Punter]

It would basically be a VFL, and you’d have players 10 times refusing to go interstate it already happens by the truckload every year. You recon GWS didn’t want to take Chad Wingard for instance? You bet they did but he practically refused to be drafted.

The academy allows these clubs to limit some of the strain of go home.

If you guarantee a NBA type of trade system I recon more people would get around limits on academy and pure drafts- in other words you want to go back to Melbourne that’s fine but we as a club unless you are F/A can send you to whatever club in Melbourne for the best deal none of this nominating clubs that’s just making the situation worse!

Again, I have proposed a raft of changes including a significant increase in salaries which is the trade off for players under contract being traded without their permission. Wingard should have been kept from the league: we can't have draft tampering. Playing footy at the highest level for money is not a human right. Also, I think most footy fans, regardless of location, would prefer it if players didn't nominate one destination and therefore prevent an open market being created for a player.

Again, I don't support creating disadvantage to address other disadvantage. The fact there are 10 teams in Melbourne is not a created disadvantage. The largest supporter block is in Melbourne and therefore the largest revenue comes from Melbourne which everyone gets some of. Fewer Melbourne teams would be less fans and less money.

FS is unique to AFL. AFL is still a game where players are generally loyal. Fans can follow their favourite players who generally end up 1 club players for the majority, if not all, of their careers. FS adds to that. It doesn't favour any club. Most past players probably have kids. Collingwood has no more advantage than St Kilda.

NGA I totally agree with given its purpose should be to introduce and develop kids who, culturally, wouldn't have much exposure to footy. The fact that even David Rodan's son qualifies as both FS and NGA is ridiculous. Make no mistake, NGA was designed for Victoiran clubs because of the whining against QLD and NSW Academies. Your club should be happy with that.

Successful teams have more 100 games players than teams that were not successful. Moneyed clubs can spend more money on developing potential father-sons than others. The rule applies to all clubs equally but it entrenches the uneven playing field and places a part of success on dumb luck, which the draft is designed to work against. No fan watches because of father-son.

I agree with your assessment on the reason for the NGAs, but any perversion of the draft is something no one should be happy with if they believe in fairness.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Will post this in a few threads but think its relevant here

Has anyone actually done the research on the Northern Academies in anyway at any level. We keep hearing of its necessity, its success yet it never translates into anything. If you do the actual research you will see the draftee numbers from these states is getting considerably worse

From the 2010 draft we had 5 NSW players, 1 ACT player, 1 NT and 3 QLD players. All in the normal listed way ie. No CAT B rookies. Then we had in 2024 we had 6 NSW Players (1 a CAT B rookie from US got counted), 4 from QLD (1 Cat rookie) and 1 NT player (Cat B rookie) .

In 2024 AFL was pretty happy and boasted about this number. For some reason the AFL doesnt actually report each years state by state numbers all the time. A huge gap from 2020 to 2023 exists when it just stopped. Could not get AI to find a answer anywhere so had to manually do the count.

In 2020 we had 3 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft + 1 Cat B rookie
In 2021 we had 0 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft + 1 Cat B rookie
In 2022 we had 0 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft (Jaspa Fletcher) + 4 Cat B Rookies
In 2023 we had 1 from NSW and 3 from QLD

AFL Sydney is probably the biggest failure of all. From what I can gather its received around 120 mil in funding from Federal/State/AFL and produced 1 solitary player in Caiden Cleary (this could be wrong but hard to find otherwise).

Not only has it failed to meet its aim it looks to have actively made the situation worse. We are getting less talent from the Eastern state academies then ever before.... Id like to see someone report on this but well they wont. The truth is inconvenient here

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

A few other things for St Kilda to complain about is well money received from the AFL


Gold Coast receives 9.9 million dollars in sponsorship and supply rights income.... which is 100k less then West Coast Eagles.... Do we really think Zambreros is paying Gold Coast the same amount as Hungry Jacks and BHP pay Eagles... so the question is what is supply rights income. This is the AFL giving Gold Coast a fee for using its intellectual property.... If you scan across the whole league only GWS and Gold Coast receive this so called supply rights income... no one else does.

This is just a case of AFL inflating the grant revenue received by these clubs to prop the numbers up to make them better. Gold Coast also has constant loans given to them that seemingly disappear the next year. AFL gave Gold Coast a 1.5 mill loan in 2023 which magically disappears in 2024s report.... so took out a 1.5 mill loan to pay it off a few months later. Yeah that seems logical...

 

[mighty_lions]

Will post this in a few threads but think its relevant here

Has anyone actually done the research on the Northern Academies in anyway at any level. We keep hearing of its necessity, its success yet it never translates into anything. If you do the actual research you will see the draftee numbers from these states is getting considerably worse

From the 2010 draft we had 5 NSW players, 1 ACT player, 1 NT and 3 QLD players. All in the normal listed way ie. No CAT B rookies. Then we had in 2024 we had 6 NSW Players (1 a CAT B rookie from US got counted), 4 from QLD (1 Cat rookie) and 1 NT player (Cat B rookie) .

In 2024 AFL was pretty happy and boasted about this number. For some reason the AFL doesnt actually report each years state by state numbers all the time. A huge gap from 2020 to 2023 exists when it just stopped. Could not get AI to find a answer anywhere so had to manually do the count.

In 2020 we had 3 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft + 1 Cat B rookie
In 2021 we had 0 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft + 1 Cat B rookie
In 2022 we had 0 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft (Jaspa Fletcher) + 4 Cat B Rookies
In 2023 we had 1 from NSW and 3 from QLD

AFL Sydney is probably the biggest failure of all. From what I can gather its received around 120 mil in funding from Federal/State/AFL and produced 1 solitary player in Caiden Cleary (this could be wrong but hard to find otherwise).

Not only has it failed to meet its aim it looks to have actively made the situation worse. We are getting less talent from the Eastern state academies then ever before.... Id like to see someone report on this but well they wont. The truth is inconvenient here

you are being selective in your comparison of years, It has not made the situation worse, basically what you are saying is even more needs to be done and I agree

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

you are being selective in your comparison of years, It has not made the situation worse, basically what you are saying is even more needs to be done and I agree

This is 100% true about being selective but its bloody hard not to be when the AFL dont really provide the data easily.

I guess the main question is. Are we getting return on investment? I mean in 2022 all 4 academies produced 0 players in the draft outside of 1 father/son... Thats a absurdly poor return

 

[mighty_lions]

This is 100% true about being selective but its bloody hard not to be when the AFL dont really provide the data easily.

I guess the main question is. Are we getting return on investment? I mean in 2022 all 4 academies produced 0 players in the draft outside of 1 father/son... Thats a absurdly poor return

I agree 0 is a poor return thats why there needs to be even more investment and maybe the hysteria around academies is out of control, imagine a coach/president getting so wound up over academies that are barely producing any and the one that got a great benefit in Gold Coast hasn't played finals in 15 years and has had just about every top end talent walk out the door.

More needs to be done with academies not less

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

I agree 0 is a poor return thats why there needs to be even more investment and maybe the hysteria around academies is out of control, imagine a coach/president getting so wound up over academies that are barely producing any and the one that got a great benefit in Gold Coast hasn't played finals in 15 years and has had just about every top end talent walk out the door.

More needs to be done with academies not less

Sunken cost fallacy is never a good idea .We can't afford more money on a failed investment. It's time to restructure where the money is spent and W.A , Tasmania and Indigenous areas is what needs to receive the money

A big producer of indigenous talent in W.A is going it's 3rd year without a AFL ground while AFL gives millions to Gold Coast to produce nothing. Millions upon millions on Billboards for Gold Coast is not a good use of limited funds

They don't need more money, they need less.

 

[Elixuh]

This is 100% true about being selective but its bloody hard not to be when the AFL dont really provide the data easily.

I guess the main question is. Are we getting return on investment? I mean in 2022 all 4 academies produced 0 players in the draft outside of 1 father/son... Thats a absurdly poor return

When you say are we getting a return on investment, what do you mean?

 

[mighty_lions]

Sunken cost fallacy is never a good idea .We can't afford more money on a failed investment. It's time to restructure where the money is spent and W.A , Tasmania and Indigenous areas is what needs to receive the money

A big producer of indigenous talent in W.A is going it's 3rd year without a AFL ground while AFL gives millions to Gold Coast to produce nothing. Millions upon millions on Billboards for Gold Coast is not a good use of limited funds

They don't need more money, they need less.

If Gold Coast has produced nothing what is everyone complaining about?

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

If Gold Coast has produced nothing what is everyone complaining about?

The waste of money on so little production...

St Kilda complaints in my opinion are self serving garbage. The issue is at a financial level and that financial level impacts us all

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

When you say are we getting a return on investment, what do you mean?

More or less that Gold Coast get triple the money clubs like West Coast get in AFL grants from revenue .

What are they giving back to us for what has been more then 360 million dollars now given to them? If we took that 360 mill gave it to other clubs, played 24 games instead of 22 , what is the benefits vs loss of that ? We would be much better off

Id close off both GWS and Gold Coast myself and move on to a 24 round season. We are sinking money into what is a bankrupted entity at this point expecting a different result that we simply won't get

 

[mighty_lions]

More or less that Gold Coast get triple the money clubs like West Coast get in AFL grants from revenue .

What are they giving back to us for what has been more then 360 million dollars now given to them? If we took that 360 mill gave it to other clubs, played 24 games instead of 22 , what is the benefits vs loss of that ? We would be much better off

Id close off both GWS and Gold Coast myself and move on to a 24 round season. We are sinking money into what is a bankrupted entity at this point expecting a different result that we simply won't get

yeah thats not going to happen

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

yeah thats not going to happen

Which is ego driven not results driven.

Which we should admit not ignore and lie about

 

[Elixuh]

More or less that Gold Coast get triple the money clubs like West Coast get in AFL grants from revenue .

What are they giving back to us for what has been more then 360 million dollars now given to them? If we took that 360 mill gave it to other clubs, played 24 games instead of 22 , what is the benefits vs loss of that ? We would be much better off

Id close off both GWS and Gold Coast myself and move on to a 24 round season. We are sinking money into what is a bankrupted entity at this point expecting a different result that we simply won't get

You were talking about all 4 academies though. Have a look how the Lions academy is funded.

Equally, your point about GCS is the exact reason why the AFL will never strip back the academy stuff.

 

[mighty_lions]

Which is ego driven not results driven.

Which we should admit not ignore and lie about

you are thinking short term not long term, what does AFL look like in 2075, its a national competition not the VFL with a sprinkling of other teams, 60 percent of the population comes from QLD and NSW, having less teams and less money doesnt sound ike a good strategy

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

you are thinking short term not long term, what does AFL look like in 2075, its a national competition not the VFL with a sprinkling of other teams, 60 percent of the population comes from QLD and NSW, having less teams and less money doesnt sound ike a good strategy

The same place we are in today is the logical answer here. If we are spending money with next to no result after nearly 15 years , why is that going to change 50 years later here?

We have enough evidence to know its not working so move on. Saying we need to wait til 2075 is just moving the goal posts kinda thing

 

[mighty_lions]

The same place we are in today is the logical answer here. If we are spending money with next to no result after nearly 15 years , why is that going to change 50 years later here?

We have enough evidence to know its not working so move on. Saying we need to wait til 2075 is just moving the goal posts kinda thing

These things take time, societal culture changes aren't going to happen overnight. People in west Sydney and Gold Coast aren't going to magically wake up 1 morning all supporters of AFL. It will take decades and I think Gold Coast are tracking alright (just coincidentally at the same time they have academy picks that shows its working). Non traditional AFL states take time even Brisbane thats been successful has had massive challenges but there's no doubt that the Brisbane that entered the competition in 1987 is nothing like the Brisbane Lions of today almost 40 years later

What did you expect Gold Coast and gws to have, 100k members and 3 premierships ?

 

[the big lebowski]

If the academies are about to “growing the game” have them funded and run by the AFL. And any academy player is in the open draft.

If it’s about giving a leg up to clubs the afl want to always be successful, admit it like grown ups so that supporters of Brisbane, Sydney, giants and Gold Coast can stop lying to themselves.

At the very least, make father sons ineligible for draft concessions if they are in an academy.

 

[paulige]

From the 2010 draft we had 5 NSW players, 1 ACT player, 1 NT and 3 QLD players. All in the normal listed way ie. No CAT B rookies. Then we had in 2024 we had 6 NSW Players (1 a CAT B rookie from US got counted), 4 from QLD (1 Cat rookie) and 1 NT player (Cat B rookie) .

In 2024 AFL was pretty happy and boasted about this number. For some reason the AFL doesnt actually report each years state by state numbers all the time. A huge gap from 2020 to 2023 exists when it just stopped. Could not get AI to find a answer anywhere so had to manually do the count.

In 2020 we had 3 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft + 1 Cat B rookie
In 2021 we had 0 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft + 1 Cat B rookie
In 2022 we had 0 from NSW and 1 from QLD in the main draft (Jaspa Fletcher) + 4 Cat B Rookies
In 2023 we had 1 from NSW and 3 from QLD

Which is it? Are the academies this out of control, monstrous advantage? Or are they failing to achieve anything? Why is everyone up in arms about them if they’re failing?

Regarding those numbers, who were the 3 QLD’ers in 2010? The only one I can see is a rookie promotion (Claye Beams) - wondering if I’ve missed something?

2023 saw GC take players at 3, 9, 14, and 26, and Sydney take someone at 53. Can you find a draft circa 2010 with that sort of QLD talent? That is 5 players, whereas you have indicated above that only 3 were taken…?

I also see 2 QLD players taken in 2020, rather than 1.


Unrelated side note, for those claiming F/S & academy picks are “free” - well, yes they’ve previously been well discounted, but out of interest I just had a look at what Collingwood used to nab Daicos at #4 (2034 points pre-discount), 4 picks around the 40 mark.

Those same picks would now only net 884 points, or enough to match a bid at pick #15. So, things have been tightened up significantly. Fair enough too, I should add.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Which is it? Are the academies this out of control, monstrous advantage? Or are they failing to achieve anything? Why is everyone up in arms about them if they’re failing?

Regarding those numbers, who were the 3 QLD’ers in 2010? The only one I can see is a rookie promotion (Claye Beams) - wondering if I’ve missed something?

2023 saw GC take players at 3, 9, 14, and 26, and Sydney take someone at 53. Can you find a draft circa 2010 with that sort of QLD talent? That is 5 players, whereas you have indicated above that only 3 were taken…?

I also see 2 QLD players taken in 2020, rather than 1.


Unrelated side note, for those claiming F/S & academy picks are “free” - well, yes they’ve previously been well discounted, but out of interest I just had a look at what Collingwood used to nab Daicos at #4 (2034 points pre-discount), 4 picks around the 40 mark.

Those same picks would now only net 884 points, or enough to match a bid at pick #15. So, things have been tightened up significantly. Fair enough too, I should add.

It can be both. It gives Gold Coast, Brisbane, GWS and Sydney a advantage at a ridiculous cost which isnt worth the money spent

The biggest issue though is less the advantage and more the absolute burning of hundreds of millions of dollars for basically nothing in return BUT 3 or 4 players for Brisbane/Gold Coast every few years

I mean we have spent 120 mil+ on AFL Sydney and all we got was Caiden Cleary in return and a 10,000 people rise in participation since 2019 (they stopped recording figures between 2019 til 2023). Is this money well spent or a poor result? I think you know the answer to that

 

[paulige]

It can be both. It gives Gold Coast, Brisbane, GWS and Sydney a advantage at a ridiculous cost which isnt worth the money spent

The biggest issue though is less the advantage and more the absolute burning of hundreds of millions of dollars for basically nothing in return BUT 3 or 4 players for Brisbane/Gold Coast every few years

I mean we have spent 120 mil+ on AFL Sydney and all we got was Caiden Cleary in return and a 10,000 people rise in participation since 2019 (they stopped recording figures between 2019 til 2023). Is this money well spent or a poor result? I think you know the answer to that

Despite your suggesting I do, I don’t know the answer to that. You say that’s all we got - is it possible you’ve missed something, anything?

Who were the 3 QLDers drafted in 2010? I’ve got one rookie promotion - who are the 3 I missed?

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Despite your suggesting I do, I don’t know the answer to that. You say that’s all we got - is it possible you’ve missed something, anything?

Who were the 3 QLDers drafted in 2010? I’ve got one rookie promotion - who are the 3 I missed?

Havnt looked at 2010 TBH. That came from AI