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Re: How wealthy Richmond were in the 1930s

RogersResults said:
There was not that much money in VFL football, full-stop. If the VFL clubs were paying their stars big money 'on the side' in the 1930's in breach of League rules, why did the likes of Pratt (Sth Melb), Todd (Collingwood) and Valence (Carlton) defect to the VFA when the VFA abolished any cap on player payments?
Click to expand...

I think it was wealthy supporters who contributed sums over and above what each club would routinely bring in, and I know Richmond had a few of these. Jack Dyer was one of the beneficiaries.

Todd received around 500 pounds to cross to Williamstown, which was a veritable king's ransom in that era. The money was paid not by the club, but by a wealthy backer. John Wren, who was richer than most, offered to write an open cheque to retain Todd, but the board elected to let Todd go on principle (and I think gave Todd the photo-facing-the-wall treatment).
 
Re: How wealthy Richmond were in the 1930s

RogersResults said:
Then what happened to the 'big three's' "wealth" advantage for the 20 years after WWII?
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Revenue sharing. The league began to pool gate and finals income and it slowly wore down Carlton and Richmond, neither of whom lost more games than they won in the twenty-four seasons from 1926 to 1949.

Ron the Bear, you are right that it was wealthy supporters who allowed Richmond, Carlton and Collingwood to achieve success - this is what Up Where Cazaly was saying! Revenue sharing may have been aimed to help clubs like St. Kilda and Hawthorn who for whatever reason could never acquire such wealthy supporters, but it took time because of the limited sums involved and the nature of therevenue difference.
 
Re: How wealthy Richmond were in the 1930s

mianfei said:
Revenue sharing. The league began to pool gate and finals income and it slowly wore down Carlton and Richmond, neither of whom lost more games than they won in the twenty-four seasons from 1926 to 1949.
Click to expand...

What has to be appreciated is the role of the "Ground Managers Association" in the distribution of revenue and the amount of football revenue controlled by non football bodies at the time. The small amount that was distributed/pooled income, was for ground managers to improve facilities not for clubs to "buy" players.

Ron the Bear, you are right that it was wealthy supporters who allowed Richmond, Carlton and Collingwood to achieve success - this is what Up Where Cazaly was saying! Revenue sharing may have been aimed to help clubs like St. Kilda and Hawthorn who for whatever reason could never acquire such wealthy supporters, but it took time because of the limited sums involved and the nature of there venue difference.
Click to expand...
I stick with my contention that in the period when was little money in the game that "wealthy supporters" made the all difference in performance between clubs, is facile and unsupported by documentary and empirical evidence. As I said, why is Geelong's success between the wars ignored in this proposition? Not enough anecdotes of benefactors handing out cash?

Proper research of district recruiting zones and their demographics would be be more fruitful. In 1910 when they were first proposed there were 8 zones with populations of around 70,000. Geelong and hinterland having a population barely half the proposed metropolitan zones was left "undecided". (University had no zone but a free pick of the most "educated" footballers in the state.) The zones that the 1925 accession clubs were given and their pools of eligible and able footballers are more likely to explain their relative lack of initial success than lack of supporters with deeper pockets.

What the exclusive recruitment zone meant for the Geelong was that local players could no longer be 'poached' by metropolitan clubs and then there was a sociological factor that has never been properly investigated. For example Geelong's 1951-2 premiership sides were over 60% recruited from country Victoria outside of Geelong's local district zone, while their opponents were 75% recruited from metropolitan Melbourne. There is no evidence that Geelong was paying the most to attract the best country players but what does emerge from interviews with surviving members of those teams is the consideration of preferring to live and work in the 'country' atmosphere of Geelong. Geelong's relative lack of success during the period of exclusive country zones may be more explained by the above factor than just money.

As for "Up Where Cazaly" it probably suffers from its main author, Professor Turner dying part way through its writing and a dearth of any academic secondary literature at the time (which the authors acknowledged).

It also deserves a torpedo up the backside for calling the game "Australian Rules Football" in the preface. It has never been called that by any official Australian Football body and is largely a term of condescension originating in the press of the 'rugby strongholds' in Sydney and Brisbane last century.
 
Last 20 seasons total points for and against: (1992-2011)

  • Geelong is the only team to have scored more points than they have conceded against all opponents, in the last 20 seasons.
    They are most ahead of Richmond (1,146 points) and least ahead of Adelaide (18 points.)

  • Adelaide is most ahead of Richmond (818 points) and behind 6 opponents – most behind West Coast (-336 points)

  • Brisbane is most ahead of Fremantle (368 points) and behind 6 opponents – most behind West Coast (-380 points).

  • Carlton is most ahead of Richmond (579 points) and behind 9 opponents – most behind Nth Melbourne (-441 points)

  • Collingwood is most ahead of Nth Melbourne (468 points) and behind 2 opponents – most behind Brisbane (-245 points)

  • Essendon is most ahead of Richmond (743 points) and behind 5 opponents – most behind Geelong (-379 points)

  • Fremantle is only ahead of 1 current team, Gold Coast (50 points) and behind 15 opponents – most behind Geelong (-597 points)

  • Gold Coast is most ahead of Richmond (15 points) and behind 14 opponents – most behind Geelong (-216 points)

  • Hawthorn is most ahead of Fremantle (525 points) and behind 8 opponents – most behind Nth Melbourne (-486 points)

  • Melbourne is most ahead of Richmond (288 points) and behind 13 opponents – most behind Geelong (-1,081 points)

  • Nth Melbourne is most ahead of Richmond (537 points) and behind 8 opponents – most behind Collingwood (-468 points)

  • Port Adelaide is most ahead of Essendon (310 points) and behind 9 opponents – most behind Geelong (-431 points)

  • Richmond is ahead of 2 current teams, most - Fremantle (166 points) and behind 14 opponents – most behind Geelong (-1,146 points)

  • St Kilda is most ahead of Richmond (529 points) and behind 8 opponents – most behind Essendon (-489 points)

  • Sydney is most ahead of Richmond (514 points) and behind 7 opponents – most behind Geelong (-342 points)

  • Nth Melbourne is most ahead of Richmond (537 points) and behind 8 opponents – most behind Collingwood (-468 points)

  • Western Bulldogs are most ahead of Richmond (382 points) and behind 7 opponents – most behind Geelong (-719 points)

  • West Coast is most ahead of Melbourne (557 points) and behind 5 opponents – most behind Geelong (-577 points)
 

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Ron The Bear said:
We've been unlucky with the wind. :mad:
Click to expand...

Losing the toss and then the wind changing direction in the 2nd quarter has done the damage. You'll note I refrained from adding up totals of how many times any particular team was somebody else's best result. :)

Geelong has been something of a freak, Collingwood a standout, Fremantle has never really got going yet, most are what you'd expect with all the measures to even things up but Richmond are a mystery.
 
Last time each team was goalless in second half:

  • Adelaide: NEVER
  • Brisbane: Round 11, 1989 v Richmond
    1. one of only two cases
    2. lowest score against wooden spooner since 1910
    3. in same year the Tigers kicked highest score by wooden spooner which reflects amazing variety in 1989 game
  • Carlton: Round 2, 2002 v Sydney
  • Collingwood: Round 3, 2010 v St. Kilda
    • first case by eventual premier since Collingwood also in 1953 against Footscray
    • the Magpies won that 1953 game by a point in the third last win without a second half goal
  • Essendon: Round 13, 1989 v Footscray
    1. last win without a second half goal
    2. one of only seven since 1919
    3. last game where both teams scored three or fewer goals
  • Fitzroy: Round 13, 1996 v Geelong
  • Footscray/Western Bulldogs: Round 11, 1991 v Sydney
  • Fremantle: Round 20, 2004 v Geelong
    • only case
  • Geelong: Round 13, 2010 v St. Kilda
  • Hawthorn: Round 17, 2003 v West Coast
  • Melbourne: Round 10, 2009 v St. Kilda
  • North Melbourne: Round 21, 2006 v Hawthorn
  • Port Adelaide: NEVER
  • Richmond: Round 20, 1989 v Footscray
    • see here for details and two amazingly parallel cases to the clubs’ 1989 encounters
  • St. Kilda: Round 16, 1996 v North Melbourne
  • Sydney/South Melbourne: Round 17, 1984 v Richmond
  • University: Round 10, 1913 v Fitzroy
    • one of six occurrences
  • West Coast: Round 14, 2002 v Geelong
    • one of only two cases
Overall, there have been 270 cases of a team being goalless in the second half, as against 237 of being goalless in the first half. The difference is probably because some very bad teams have tired out and given up near the end of games. The last game with an absolutely goalless second half, however, was a far back as 1909, ironically between St. Kilda and Geelong.
 
40 goal (or more) matches.

There have been 298 40 goal matches.

The first 40 goal match was in 1931. (St Kilda 21.16-142 v Collingwood 20.8-128)

The first season with more than one 40 goal match was 1934 with three (2.68% of matches played)

The first final where 40 goals were scored was the 1948 preliminary final. (Melbourne 25.16-166 v Collingwood 15.11-101)

There were no 40 goal matches 1949 to 1967.

From 1968 every season has included at least one 40 goal match.

The most and highest percentage of 40 goal matches was in 1982 with 23 (16.67% of matches played)

The lowest percentage of 40 goal matches since 1968 was 0.537% in 2010 (1 out of 186)

In 2011 there were three 40 goal matches (1.63% of matches played)

Melbourne has played the most 40 goal matches - 34 - 1.52% of their matches played - winning 14 and losing 20.

Brisbane has played the highest percentage of 40 goal matches - 1.75% - 10 out of 573 - winning 6 and losing 4.

Fremantle has played in three 40 goal matches and won them all. West Coast has also played in three, winning one and losing two.

Collingwood has played in 14 winning 11 and losing three. St Kilda has also played in 14, winning four and losing 10.

Eight of the last twelve 40 goal matches (2007-11) have involved Carlton.
 
Last time each team was goalless in Q1 and Q4:

  • Adelaide: NEVER
  • Brisbane: Round 19, 1994 v St. Kilda
    • last win by team goalless in Q1 and Q4
  • Carlton: Round 19, 1990 v North Melbourne
  • Collingwood: Round 13, 1987 v North Melbourne
  • Essendon: Round 8, 2008 v Sydney
    • second case by the Bombers in thirteen games
    • in contrast, there were only three by any team in fifteen seasons from 1992 to 2006
  • Fitzroy: Round 11, 1989 v North Melbourne
  • Footscray/Western Bulldogs: Round 19, 1975 v St. Kilda
    • nine occurrences overall, including:
      • successive home games against the Saints in 1974 and 1975
      • both games with Geelong in 1965
  • Fremantle: Round 15, 2009 v Adelaide
  • Geelong: Round 19, 1970 v St. Kilda
  • Gold Coast: NEVER
  • Hawthorn: Round 18, 1986 v Essendon
    • fourth biggest loss by minor premier
    • also fourth biggest loss by eventual premier
    • last eventual premier goalless in Q1 and Q4
  • Melbourne: Round 6, 1997 v St. Kilda
  • North Melbourne: Round 13, 1984 v Footscray
  • Port Adelaide: Round 21, 2011 v Hawthorn
    • only occurrence
  • Richmond: Round 17, 1991 v Essendon
    • won match
    • only 0-4 (4) kicked in last quarter in fourth last game at Windy Hill
  • St. Kilda: Round 19, 1985 v Melbourne
  • Sydney/South Melbourne: Round 4, 2007 v Adelaide
    • only second case of a team goalless in Q1 and Q4 since 1997 and fourth since 1991
  • University: Round 16, 1911 v Collingwood
    • one of four occurrences
  • West Coast: Round 15, 1989 v Essendon
    • two occurrences in as many games but no others
 
above_av_win_1984_2011.png


Matches played that were wins above the
average margin 1984-2011 (37 points.)

Sample table from from "The Four Quarters of the League". (Coming soon.)

(I seem to have recently graduated to a level that allows the posting of images. :confused:)
 

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2012 will see the completion of 116 seasons of competition.


The ‘Four Quarters’ of the League.
Four 29 year periods 1897-1925, 1926-1954, 1955-1983, and 1984- 2012 to be completed this year.

A series of tables attempting to give a snapshot of each team’s performance overall and in the four eras in a variety of categories - by individual team and head-to-head.

Some Observations


The ‘Same Olds’ the most the same.
Essendon’s match/win percentages
1897-1925: 57.56%
1926-1954: 57.93%
1955-1983: 56.65%
1984-2011: 57.66%


Cats consistent against Dogs.
In head to head Geelong has won 62.67% of all their matches against WB/Footscray
 1926-1954, 62.50%
1955-1983, 61.73%
1984-2011. 61.22%


St Kilda is the only team that Melbourne so far has won more matches than they lost against in all 4 periods. (The are currently on 22 wins and 21 losses v St Kilda 1984-2011).


1926-1954 and 1955-1983, Richmond won more matches than they lost against all opponents except 2. 1984-2011 they have lost more games than they have won against all current opponents except 2.


From 1926 to 1954 Carlton won 51 matches and lost 5 by 60 points or more.
From 1926 to 1954 Hawthorn won 4 matches and lost 80 by 60 points or more.


In the period (1926-1954) five teams won 60% or more of their matches in more than half their seasons. 1984-2011 so far no team has won 60% or more of their matches in more than half their seasons.


Carlton had no season 1926-1954 and 1955-1983 where they won 30% or less of their matches. So far in 1984-2011 they have had 5. (Adelaide and Geelong 0)


From 1926-1954 Hawthorn doubled their opponent’s score in 5 matches. Their opponents doubled Hawthorn's score in 85 matches. So far in the last period 1984-2011, Hawthorn has doubled their opponents score in 75 matches, just behind Geelong on 79.


In the first 29 years of the competition 1897-1925, Collingwood scored 34 centuries and conceded 4. Hawthorn 1926-1954 scored 46 centuries and conceded 212 centuries.


For the first three 29 year periods, Collingwood has had the highest percentage of seasons playing in the finals. So far in the last period 1984-2011, they have seven teams ahead of them.


Full tables starting here. or here
 
Hey Rogers, get ready to jot down all the firsts this Saturday night.
Click to expand...
Newly minted teams are a menace.

I give them time to mature unless they break some all time record like failing to score.

This is what emerged from Gold Coast's first outing - mainly about Carlton but some disgraceful ones for the Suns.


  • 119 points: Biggest loss for a team's debut in the League. Previous: Port Adelaide 79 points v Collingwood round 1, 1997.
  • 119 points: Carlton's equal 6th highest winning margin and their highest since round 10 2001 - 23.23-149 v West Coast 3.12-30.
  • 119 points: Carlton's biggest win outside of Victoria. Previous: 86 points v Sydney/SM round 4 1988 at the SCG.
  • 171 points; The highest score conceded by a team in their League debut. Previous: 166 points - Port Adelaide v Collingwood.
  • 171 points: Carlton's highest score outside of Victoria. Previous: 24.22-166 v Sydney/SM round 4 1988.
  • 171 points: Carlton's highest score since 28.12-180 v Collingwood round 18, 2000.
  • 59 points: Carlton's 4th equal highest first quarter score and their highest since 10.2-62 v Fitzroy round 2 1984.
  • 52 points: Carlton's 4th highest quarter time margin and the highest since 9.3-57 v Fremantle 0.1-1 round 16 2001.
  • Carlton's 6th win from their last 10 matches 'on the road'.
  • First time Carlton has had the highest score of the round since round 21 2009.
  • First time Carlton has had the highest score and the biggest win of the round since round 16 2009.

    (Struggling a bit to fill some space.)

    Watch the ladder each week of how the Giants compare with every other team's first 22 matches after acceding to the League post 1897. Gold Coast came out rock-bottom in their first 22.
 
RogersResults said:
Newly minted teams are a menace.

I give them time to mature unless they break some all time record like failing to score.

This is what emerged from Gold Coast's first outing - mainly about Carlton but some disgraceful ones for the Suns.


  • 119 points: Biggest loss for a team's debut in the League. Previous: Port Adelaide 79 points v Collingwood round 1, 1997.
  • 119 points: Carlton's equal 6th highest winning margin and their highest since round 10 2001 - 23.23-149 v West Coast 3.12-30.
  • 119 points: Carlton's biggest win outside of Victoria. Previous: 86 points v Sydney/SM round 4 1988 at the SCG.
  • 171 points; The highest score conceded by a team in their League debut. Previous: 166 points - Port Adelaide v Collingwood.
  • 171 points: Carlton's highest score outside of Victoria. Previous: 24.22-166 v Sydney/SM round 4 1988.
  • 171 points: Carlton's highest score since 28.12-180 v Collingwood round 18, 2000.
  • 59 points: Carlton's 4th equal highest first quarter score and their highest since 10.2-62 v Fitzroy round 2 1984.
  • 52 points: Carlton's 4th highest quarter time margin and the highest since 9.3-57 v Fremantle 0.1-1 round 16 2001.
  • Carlton's 6th win from their last 10 matches 'on the road'.
  • First time Carlton has had the highest score of the round since round 21 2009.
  • First time Carlton has had the highest score and the biggest win of the round since round 16 2009.

    (Struggling a bit to fill some space.)

    Watch the ladder each week of how the Giants compare with every other team's first 22 matches after acceding to the League post 1897. Gold Coast came out rock-bottom in their first 22.
Click to expand...



Gold Coast's first ever possession tally at AFL level = 332.
Gold Coast's first ever touch at AFL level belonged to Nathan Krakouer.

Also, have you kept tabs on every single first goal of every season?
 
RedmanWasHere said:
Gold Coast's first ever possession tally at AFL level = 332.
Click to expand...

And Carlton had 330 disposals the previous time they won by 119 points against West Coast in 2001*. Shows what BS "disposals" on their own can be as a meaningful statistic. Unless you correlate it with the result and in Gold Coast's case in their first match it could be an indicator of their incompetence. It is "disposals" they measure too not "possessions"

Also, have you kept tabs on every single first goal of every season?
Click to expand...
All I keep "tabs" on are the scores at the end of each quarter and where and when the match was played. No individual player stats at all. I leave that to better equipped others.

* http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/games/2011/032020110402.html
 

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I was looking at Gold Coast’s debut and found that Charlie Dixon, a 200 cm ruckman who kicked their first ever AFL goal, played only nine more games for four more goals. I wonder if anybody knows who kicked previous clubs’ first VFL/AFL goals and their long term fate?
 
mianfei said:
I was looking at Gold Coast’s debut and found that Charlie Dixon, a 200 cm ruckman who kicked their first ever AFL goal, played only nine more games for four more goals. I wonder if anybody knows who kicked previous clubs’ first VFL/AFL goals and their long term fate?
Click to expand...

Probably not unless published match reports mention who scored the first goal in each team's first match. I'm not aware of such a list.
 
Today's HS article states that Chris Newman is currently 6th on the all-time list of games played without a final. I suspect that, like the AFL Record Season Guide, the author has missed Gary Hardeman.

Most games without a final:

Code: 
Gms Player            Club(s)    Career
----------------------------------------
230 Barker, Trevor    St       1975-1989
224 Cunningham, Geoff St       1977-1989
219 Hardeman, Gary    Me       1967-1981
203 Smith, Steven     Me       1974-1985
200 Pool, Ted         Ha       1926-1938
196 Mills, Bert       Ha       1930-1942
192*Newman, Chris     Ri       2002-2011
191 Sullivan, Tony    Me       1967-1979
187 Forbes, Keith     Es,NM,Fi 1928-1940
184 Hogg, Jeff        Ri,Fi    1986-1996


The following lists the highest games tallies for those who eventually did play in one or more finals:

Code: 
GBF Player           Club(s)    Career      Fn
----------------------------------------------
269 Flower, Robert   Me       1973-1987 272  3
242 Murphy, John F.  Fi,Sy,NM 1967-1980 246  1
237 Alves, Stan      Me,NM    1965-1979 266 11
232 Wells, Greg T.   Me,Ca    1969-1982 267  4
220 Carter, Rod      Fi,Sy    1974-1990 293  4
217 Skilton, Bob     Sy       1956-1971 237  1
203 Magee, Stuart    Sy,WB    1962-1975 216  1
191 Merrigan, Harvey Fi       1969-1981 197  2
187 Bisset, George   WB,Co    1963-1974 207  2
183 Curcio, Frank    Fi       1932-1948 249  4

Alves and Wells played in flags at their second clubs, while Curcio, the first Lion to play 200 games and whose career spanned 17 years, missed Fitzroy's final premiership in 1944 due to military service.
 
Ron The Bear said:
Today's HS article states that Chris Newman is currently 6th on the all-time list of games played without a final. I suspect that, like the AFL Record Season Guide, the author has missed Gary Hardeman.
Click to expand...

Why aren't the above mentioned publications paying you to try and regain some credibility? :confused:

Meanwhile: Real Footy has made a mess of the figures in this:

Fine line in getting it all right on the night

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...n-the-night-20120325-1vslk.html#ixzz1qAqBxtqA

Only one of the figures in the column - win% (day and night matches) 2009-11 is without error.
​
 

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