Opinion Stephen Silvagni

Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Posts
44
Likes
107
AFL Club
Carlton
The kids you’ve named are all really promising. LOB, Pet-Set, Fish will all play roles. Anyone can hit an early draft pick which I have no doubt SOS has done well. It’s the later rounds and free agency that SOS gets a huge fail for.

It’s been clear for a few years Cripps needs midfield help, bigger more mature bodies. Instead we have the smallest midfield of all time.
Anyone can hit an early draft pick? Please - that is garbage. SOS has done very well with top 20 picks both here and at GWS.

I agree the midfield needs help. He drafted SPS, Fisher, Dow, LOB and Walsh with top picks. They are all mids. Would you prefer he passed on Weitering and instead drafted Parish? How about passing on McKay or Curnow?

It is a list build. It takes time. We have the KPP parts sorted (minus a ruck). We have two A grade mids in Walsh and Cripps with other potentials. Now you add the midfield class as mids come on quicker.

I am not saying SOS is god. What I am saying is it is too early to tell and to make the calls you are is wrong.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

TerryWallet

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Posts
10,581
Likes
22,928
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
I think SOS has done a slightly above average job with the draft, and a significantly below average job with mature age recruiting.

I dare say if he had have done a better job with mature age players Bolts would still be in a job.
Also, if he'd done a better job with mature aged players we wouldn't have Sam Walsh for the next 15 years.

Up until this year, we weren't recruiting players to make us win games.

SOS, and the whole club, for better or worse, took an overtly big picture view and it will see us competitive for a long stretch starting soon enough. All the "recruits" that were basically deckchairs were brought in as basically deckchairs. The gap on our list due to Hughes and Rogers was gaping.
 

Blue and Blue

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Posts
5,191
Likes
12,504
AFL Club
Carlton
Also, if he'd done a better job with mature aged players we wouldn't have Sam Walsh for the next 15 years.

Up until this year, we weren't recruiting players to make us win games.

SOS, and the whole club, for better or worse, took an overtly big picture view and it will see us competitive for a long stretch starting soon enough. All the "recruits" that were basically deckchairs were brought in as basically deckchairs. The gap on our list due to Hughes and Rogers was gaping.
Exactly. Best to just ignore the new noise.
 
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Posts
380
Likes
1,375
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Cleveland Cavaliers
A lot of people very critical of SOS are using hindsight or judging players before we should be really judging.

Remember, it isn't SOS' position to develop the player, but get the talent in the door.

McGovern: was very good at Adelaide, average here. Why? Injury, coaching? Not SOS' job to keep him fit and coach the man.

Setterfield: blokes played 10 ******* games but why isn't he producing at an A grade level? Ffs.

Kennedy: everyone loved getting him in at the time. We got him as a young talent who was producing at gws. Why not here? Injury, coaching, development? This isn't SOS' duty.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

If you want to criticise SOS it's his selections in the rookie draft and the Adelaide trade which is still unknown. Stocker also looks like our most composed player only 5 games into a career. Ours or Adelaide's selection would have been traded regardless so let's see what that catches us. The time to go after senior players has always been this year and the entire club has shared this vision. We should have hit on more Newman types in the process.
 

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 1, 2016
Posts
6,881
Likes
12,964
AFL Club
Carlton
Knows his way around goals, has genuine pace and is strong. Hopefully his body can hold up.
What you said was this:
...Could have found 2 more Cunningham’s with those picks (SOS’s best work).
... and I don't quite see how the above makes him immediately better than a) Fisher, or b) Harry (given that he turned two Cuninghams worth of picks to obtain pick 10).

I mean, I'd love for Cuningham to stay out there as much as most, because he does have all the upside in the world, but 'SOS's best work' is a bit of a stretch for me.

Outside of that, people like to treat trading/drafting like Back to the Future; that, if only someone selected Fyfe/Dangerfield/Swan before clubs 1 through to 18, then those clubs would have that player as they are currently.

It's not what's brought in, it's what eventuates by the end of the career. Cameron Ling was a slow fat full forward as a junior, Weitering a midfielder who shot up, Cripps a small in and under. You can't judge a player by the draftee they were, and you can't really judge a list manager on as small a sample as 5 years.
 

Blues_1864

All Australian
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Posts
770
Likes
1,917
AFL Club
Carlton
The mature players have been disappointing, but we do not know if any 'better' options were available to SOS. We know he chased a few like Shiel, Steele, Mitchell, etc. who rejected us and stayed at their own clubs or choose a club that was (in their eyes) closer to success. Who did SOS reject?

SOS was going full rebuild so we are not the most attractive destination.

Sorry for throwing logic into this, but I doubt houdini could have escaped our fate.
Silvagni started in a hole of epic proportions. You could argue that the 2015 list had 20-25 players below AFL standard, and many of them mature at that. There was no easy way out, and I condone the early GWS-heavy selections because there were so many list slots to fill, and he was entitled to find out whether "his" GWS recruits were up to it at Carlton. I'll give him the 2015 and 2016 trade periods on that basis (even though some bad things happened, like Palmer and Smedts). The Tuohy trade did make hard-headed sense at the time, and it was always going to be a long term payoff.

But things have headed south since then, and Silvagni is far from blameless. Not with respect to Shiel, Rockliff etc. - we did what we could, and it wasn't enough, you do have to sell hope, and we just didn't have enough of it. But increasingly, players taken late in the National Draft, and added to the rookie list, have predominantly fallen into two categories: (1) AFL discards (Garlett is the best of these; Mullett, O'Shea, Shaw etc.), and (2) "project" players (e.g. O'Dwyer). And the AFL-quality "core" of our list is just not strong enough to carry them.

The problem with AFL discards is that their games have mostly been very heavily scrutinised, and "picked apart" at the highest level. At least one AFL list manager has already decided they don't measure up, and usually has excellent reasons why. You might get the occasional player who is genuinely surplus to a contender and can help us (e.g. Wright), but most of them... nup. (Please Deluca... prove me wrong!)

In general, I reckon there are much better options - UNTRIED options - available in the second tier. And I'm not just talking about the Sam Mitchells or the Tim Kellys. The proof is in our own pudding, where Silvagni had to be dragged kicking and screaming past the National Draft, the delisted free agents, and the rookie draft, to look at the VFL and bring in Gibbons as a replacement for Bugg. Seems to have worked out all right - played every game, and we don't even talk about dropping him any more. He'll never be a superstar, but he brings a consistent game/effort each week, he's predictable to his team-mates, and he's predictable to his coach. And we have bugger-all players actually being/doing that at the moment - his efforts have really shone a light on the lack of predictability and cohesion in our AFL group, which is one of the key reasons we go so poorly so often, youth or not.
 

koutamarto

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Posts
1,681
Likes
998
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
LA Lakers
Liam Sumner
Rhys Palmer
Sam Kerridge
Billie Smedts
Matt Shaw
Aaron Mullet
Cam O'Shea
Daniel Gorringe
Matthew Lobbe
Andrew Phillips
Cam Polson
Darcy Lang
Jed Lamb
Jarrod Garlett
Jarrod Pickett

That is 15, mostly recycled players in 3 years that he has bombed on. I don't care about the hows or whys SOS and his team have stuffed way to many choices up for the precarious situations we started in.


That list could grow by another 5 by years end.
How much did these guys cost us? What other options were available instead, who was picked with the picks after the one we used etc?
How about instead of trotting out the same shot the c grade journo hacks are, how about you provide some context and analysis? Or maybe you don’t know/understand yourself!
 

Beast__Mode

Team Captain
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Posts
598
Likes
2,065
AFL Club
Carlton
The mature players have been disappointing, but we do not know if any 'better' options were available to SOS. We know he chased a few like Shiel, Steele, Mitchell, etc. who rejected us and stayed at their own clubs or choose a club that was (in their eyes) closer to success. Who did SOS reject?

SOS was going full rebuild so we are not the most attractive destination.

Sorry for throwing logic into this, but I doubt houdini could have escaped our fate.
well... there are plenty of players we’ve been told that SOS showed interest in but wouldn’t move to the market price. Saad for eg. so to pretend like he’s some beggar on the street pushing a bowl out to the crowd is fanciful.

So yeah, I think it’s logical to say that SOS has had a very high degree of agency in who comes on our list (or who doesn’t).

Ultimately, if he’s bringing **** players on our list, he owns it. Instead of bringing in GWS rubbish, maybe he could have brought in VFL/SANFL/WAFL bodies to protect kids.

His GWS forays have been an unmitigated disaster. Attitude issues, fitness issues, footy competence issues. Exactly all the matters which should be avoided if the purpose of their recruitment was to both mentor and protect kids.

In two years time it’s possible for all that messing around with GWS we’ll be left with Setterfield and Marchbank. With question marks on them as well.

I’m happy for him to stay, I think the skill we have in drafting is at a high level, probably our highest ever. But he’s got huge performance gaps in other parts of list management and if we don’t improve in those areas he should be moved on.
 

koutamarto

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Posts
1,681
Likes
998
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
LA Lakers
He's national drafting has been nearly bang on few players Cuningham McKay Macreadie Williamson have missed large chunks of games through injuries missing valuable development.
Probably Polson is the only cross ATM from all of national draft selections and he was a pick 59 few others probably need another season or two at least for a better guide.
His Rookie drafting and delisted players along with a few trades have been pretty ordinary at best
Shaw, O'Shea, Palmer, Mullet, Gorringe, Lobbe, Smedts were horrible additions big busts
Understand the needing roll players to support the drafted kids but this is where it was poorly executed particularly the way we neglected particular positional players we obviously needed and still do.
SOS has done a great job but can get better...
But u can’t have it both ways. What’s the 1 thing Carlton needs? Senior bodies. What were all those guys at the time? Senior bodies. We can’t force players to come to Carlton and no quality players want to come. You HAVE to fill your list b4 the season. While these guys were spuds what other choice did he have? It’s not like he was giving up top 10 picks! I’m pretty sure Palmer was a pick in 100s. So are u better off taking a senior player (an obvious need) who has proven he is can play at the top level who take pick what ever it was to the draft and get another kid?
 

Blue1980

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Posts
9,750
Likes
8,946
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
But u can’t have it both ways. What’s the 1 thing Carlton needs? Senior bodies. What were all those guys at the time? Senior bodies. We can’t force players to come to Carlton and no quality players want to come. You HAVE to fill your list b4 the season. While these guys were spuds what other choice did he have? It’s not like he was giving up top 10 picks! I’m pretty sure Palmer was a pick in 100s. So are u better off taking a senior player (an obvious need) who has proven he is can play at the top level who take pick what ever it was to the draft and get another kid?
It’s not a one or the other type thing, those GWS guys have almost without exception been awful.

We could have tried to get more experienced players from other sources, it wasn’t a GWS reject or 10 Finbar O’Dwyers as our only option.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

FitzroyBlueBagger

FitzroyBlueBagger
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Posts
700
Likes
1,375
Location
Fitzroy
AFL Club
Carlton
But u can’t have it both ways. What’s the 1 thing Carlton needs? Senior bodies. What were all those guys at the time? Senior bodies. We can’t force players to come to Carlton and no quality players want to come. You HAVE to fill your list b4 the season. While these guys were spuds what other choice did he have? It’s not like he was giving up top 10 picks! I’m pretty sure Palmer was a pick in 100s. So are u better off taking a senior player (an obvious need) who has proven he is can play at the top level who take pick what ever it was to the draft and get another kid?
Agree with what you have said in we required senior players that were obtained for near to nothing or no cost at all
I understand there's a great chance they were all that was available, salary dumps or very much a 12 month fit for positional depth for injury coverage.
It's easy to start putting forward things that should have been done in hindsight, but my opinion has always been we neglected certain needs on our list which we could have been a lot better in, small/medium forwards in particular along with small/medium defenders that can play on the dangerous opposition forwards.
It's a tough gig when your struggling down the bottom trying to get decent players from other teams, but there's a few areas we have imo have failed badly with.
 

C4[2]Yo`DooR

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Posts
15,940
Likes
12,493
Location
Barstow, Cal14nia
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
GAVROI MOUNIA... GAMW TON PIRAEA
My only criticism of SOS is the way he has approached the draft after the 3rd round.

He has missed the mark with his late/rookie draft picks.

I’ve got no issue with our early picks - because IMO even if SOS had of picked Stephenson, Naughton, Richards, Fogarty etc ... we’d still be in the same position because we are falling down in the game plan and development departments.
 

Yubby

Senior List
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Posts
196
Likes
282
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Aston Villa
Isn't that what you did immediately prior to that with Soapy?

Posters who start in the fashion you did, by calling out posters by name, don't generally get the benefit of the doubt.

If you think you are here to run roughshod over the locals, then think again.

Constructive discussion is the name of the game. This isn't Facebook.
I don't think I've ever heard of roughshod before! Got to love the education you get on Bigfooty sometimes. I definitely don't want nails in my shoes... :)
 

koutamarto

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Posts
1,681
Likes
998
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
LA Lakers
Agree with what you have said in we required senior players that were obtained for near to nothing or no cost at all
I understand there's a great chance they were all that was available, salary dumps or very much a 12 month fit for positional depth for injury coverage.
It's easy to start putting forward things that should have been done in hindsight, but my opinion has always been we neglected certain needs on our list which we could have been a lot better in, small/medium forwards in particular along with small/medium defenders that can play on the dangerous opposition forwards.
It's a tough gig when your struggling down the bottom trying to get decent players from other teams, but there's a few areas we have imo have failed badly with.
Look I get that completely. Im sure they club knows those needs. Maybe the really good clubs could pluck a player @ 70 and develop him for 4 years in 2s. But we cant develop **** (not even top end talent) and in our position we cant afford to wait for 4 years for guys to be ready They probably overrated plowman a bit if anything thinking he can play that small defender role. We also forget Jarrod Picket. I know he has been injured an hardly played, but when he does play he does some thing that make u sit up and notice. He is still a young man with a lot of natural talent. IN a good team he could be a very good small forward.
 

koutamarto

Club Legend
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Posts
1,681
Likes
998
Location
Hobart
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
LA Lakers
I think SOS has done a slightly above average job with the draft, and a significantly below average job with mature age recruiting.

I dare say if he had have done a better job with mature age players Bolts would still be in a job.
So should he just hold a gun to a mature players head, who refuses to come to carlton? Or would a severed horse's head in their bed suffice?
 

Blue and Blue

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Posts
5,191
Likes
12,504
AFL Club
Carlton
Isn't that what you did immediately prior to that with Soapy?

Posters who start in the fashion you did, by calling out posters by name, don't generally get the benefit of the doubt.

If you think you are here to run roughshod over the locals, then think again.

Constructive discussion is the name of the game. This isn't Facebook.
Absolutely it is.
The other part of the equation I feel is in us all not giving time of day to those that malevolently try to coerce destructive disruptive argument.
 

La Dispute

La Dispute
Day Off
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Posts
9,753
Likes
10,873
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester City, Boston Bruins
You can see how SOS has applied what he'd learnt at GWS, which is both a good thing and a bad thing.

He knows the value of early picks in that they provide a better chance of finding an elite player, while almost guaranteeing that the player wont be a bust. That is exceptionally useful when you're putting together a future team, and need some players to come in, earn their spot and then develop into the players that take the club forward.

My biggest issue with SOS is he gets tunnel vision when he wants a player and reaches - almost to the extreme - to get them to the club. At GWS he took Pat McKenna is an early second round pick, and took James Stewart in a similar range when Collingwood wouldn't even take him in the ND. Here he adds players who likely wouldn't be taken by any club in the ND, but are more speculative rookie selections. Polson and O'Dwyer are obvious examples of this. Sentimentality aside, I thought Kerr was an unnecessary pick, and we really should have gone after some state leaguers in that draft instead. He's still behind Curnow, McKay, McGovern and Casboult, and wont get an opportunity unless for injury. Speaking of McGovern - surely it was obvious he wasn't a must have. There's this line of thinking on Bigfooty that you don't knock back good players wanting to join your club (mainly championed by Tigers supporters justifying paying Tom Lynch a million per year to be a decoy to Jack Riewoldt), but there was no necessity to bring him in. His inclusion wouldn't have changed our fortunes this year, and he isn't the kind of player you target while you're setting up the core. I don't think he's got as much improvement as such suggest, and at this point, factoring in how good last years draft was, we probably just should have used the picks. Kerr could have got the opportunity this year to get some more AFL experience, and who knows? - Maybe he'd be a better option.

Garlett probably should have been a rookie pick. He had almost no form behind him at WAFL level, and there were concerns about his fitness and desire to get back to AFL level, and he hasn't made a huge fist of his second chance. That being said, we played him as a crumbing forward over the JLT in 2018, and he looked sharp and dangerous, and then come the season we was moved onto a more conventional wing position and didn't fire a shot. Now he's in defence. It's really hard to develop a player - especially one who's on the fringe - in multiple positions, and get the best out of them. Look at Polson: was drafted as an instinctive, inside/outside mid with good goal sense and decent disposal and has now been shunted into a forward pocket, where he's looked lost, despite his best efforts. Over time, those instincts have been knocked out of him, almost purely because we don't have any player competent enough to fill the small forward position, and he's being conditioned to defend first. At VFL level he cuts teams up in 5-minute bursts, and I wonder where he'd be at if we bothered to develop him in the midfield.

He was also far too determined to get Marchbank to the club, and in hindsight, how did we pay so much for a guy that was constantly injured and played barely any AFL footy? Another example of SOS stubbornly wanting a player, and ignoring the impact of giving up those picks. These days we'd probably get him for a token third rounder.

SOS' efforts in the rookie draft have also been appalling. He's largely just used those spots to prop up outgoing opposition players past their used-by dates. Were Matt Shaw or Tomas Bugg going to make much of a difference? SOS didn't really use the rookie draft to his advantage at GWS, minus getting in Zac Williams, and he's been lacklustre in bringing in rookie-style players here: state-leaguers, guys who were passed over in the ND due to some deficient or another, NB's players who know the squad and would integrate well into our system. This is the function of the rookie draft, and it is damning we haven't been able to leverage it.

Even the Stocker trade carries some apparent monomania. Yes, he rated Stocker highly, but his ignorance to the incredible risk, especially given our previous season was a little short-sighted. I liked what the trade signalled, but he overestimated the list and in looking at the demographic, was too hasty in pulling the trigger. Luckily Stocker will be a gun. IMO.

I love the Fisher and Cuningham picks, and we haven't got close to seeing the best of either. Once they improve their running patterns, and get some decent support around them, their skills will come to the fore. Cuningham was a minor reach at the time, but looks an inspired selection should Cunners fulfil his potential, which I think he will. The physicality in his game has gone up this year, which I previously didn't think he had, despite being competent enough as an inside midfielder at VFL level.

The thing with this rebuild is that it will take a long time to reveal how successful it is. We have drafted for the future, and in doing so, sacrificed performance in the present, and with this has possibly undercut the players as they've been forced to play senior footy from the get go. This can be good on the one hand, as they've got the best possible platform to be judged. But on the other hand, they're subject to the kind of scrutiny most young players don't have to deal with. Look at the embarrassing **** that gets slung at Dow, or the increasing pressure on Curnow. They'll have weeks and months where they struggle, which is normal for young players. Their form will fluctuate, and no player is immune, and it probably fluctuates even more in a struggling team.

I see parallels in GWS and the current Brisbane team (and probably even the Bulldogs 2016 team) to which a heap of confident, talented players get thrown together, and after a few years of mediocrity start getting into gear and start believing in what they're doing. That's the next stage for us as a club.

No doubt SOS has to improve as our list manager. He needs to start making use of the rookie draft, and stop being so one-dimensional when it comes to making ND picks; but if he can start finding AFL-standard players from the rough we'll be in a far better position going forward. We're currently going through a tumultuous period, and it seems everyone at the club is contributing to our on-field failure, but list management is only ever judged with hindsight, and currently I think he's doing an OK job. I'm hoping Agresta's success with late selections and rookie picks, and his knowledge in selecting in these areas is going to be of significant benefit, and will finally bring us some quality players through these avenues.
 

FairKouta

Club Legend
Joined
Aug 3, 2016
Posts
1,276
Likes
2,794
Location
MELBOURNE
AFL Club
Carlton
Setterfield doing incredibly well for young kid coming back from a knee.

McGovern needs to get fit and he will

Cuningham close to exploding

Dow and O’Brien need to be AFL fit and strong which will be focus this pre season

Stocker & Walsh will be guns

I’m excited about SPS off HB

McKay & Charlie will be stars and TDK to come

Weitering is already a top line KPD

Can’t wait to see Williamson Docherty Pickett all fit and firing


And there is a lot more
I tend to agree with you most Soapy. SPS is in his 4th year. Our coaching and structures have been ****e. If we get the right coach Sps will fulfil his potential.
Here is our spine

MCKAY
CURNOW
CRIPPS
DOW
SPS
WEITERING
TDK
CUNNINGHAM ( I hope people realise he is going to be a gun. Watch his last 2 games and see how he weaved his way outta traffic creating space)

Fisher
Marchy
McGovern
Willo
Stocker
On the fringes to becoming very good players right now all very young into their careers.

Obrien is the only early pick that I am not bullish on.

I can't believe we have to listen to **** from ppl bagging SOS.
Try getting all this young talent with the picks and currency we had. It's easy for all these Geelong and Hawk Supporters to say we shud identify and attract mature talent. Put their mature talent on our list they would look pretty average barring Kelly I love him.
Like SOS said we can do a top 8 list or we can do a premiership list.

SOS took risks in the late picks took delisted players at no real cost.

Everyone out here acting like it's the norm for list managers to get everything 100% correct. BULL
BTW Darcy Lang was a Geelong first round pick.
So hits and misses. Just be Glad he didn't miss the early picks.
Took more than 3 years for buddy roughy lewis and hodgey to come good.

We will get a new coach who btw will be So look much better than Bolton.
Calm your farms for the next 5 games then we can start getting worried.
InSOSWeTrust
 

Blue1980

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Posts
9,750
Likes
8,946
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Yes even with pick 100.

We got Gibbons and Deluca for essentially about that, one of whom is entrenched best 22 the other who almost certainly will be in the next month.

Plenty of state league players around who are both better than GWS trash we have gotten and random long shots who have less than 5% chance of being even ok players in the short term let alone longer term.

So yes the state leagues have players out there who can be useful for us in the short medium term. We also got a Newman for essentially nothing and I’m happy with him (I know he wasn’t great on the weekend but overall he’s decent).

I know you aren’t ever going to have a 100% hit rate, but the narrow focus on ex high picks who are broken down has convinced people (including SOS and the board I suspect) to believe we are actually getting bargains when all we are doing is taking other teams trash whom they have already deemed as busts.

I put the following into the category of SOS thinking he was getting a bargain (based off original high draft selection):

Sumner (fail, was cooked before he got to us with injury)
Lamb (pass, probably should still be on the list)
Plowman (pass, ok player, I think cops too much criticism)
Gorringe (fail)
Smedts (fail)
Palmer (little caveat being a salary dump to get Marchbank and Pickett cheaper)
Marchbank (looks at least ok, but question marks still. Injury concerns)
Pickett (fail, but worth a gamble)
Kennedy (looks a fail)
Lang (fail, but probably worth the gamble)
Garlett (fail)

Out of most of those fails, no other afl club would of gone near them except us.
 

Blue1980

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Posts
9,750
Likes
8,946
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
So should he just hold a gun to a mature players head, who refuses to come to carlton? Or would a severed horse's head in their bed suffice?
Maybe take more care over later picks to at least keep the side competitive in the short term, so the existing kids aren’t demoralized like they are now and then turning off anyone with talent from wanting to come.

We could have gone a Hodge like route, GWS did with Chad cornes, Brogan etc. instead we get mid 20s guys in like O’Shea, mullet and Shaw who weren’t even in a position of need from a structural perspective let alone provided any leadership.

Guys like Matthew Wright, Newman and Gibbons are the right types to get. Cost nothing, but fill an actual list need, no massive injury histories and solid citizens.
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Posts
49,970
Likes
66,279
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Yes even with pick 100.

We got Gibbons and Deluca for essentially about that, one of whom is entrenched best 22 the other who almost certainly will be in the next month.
Of course. We miss this often and feel that later ND picks are RD picks are solely for development types?

Point here should be though that if you are going for development types, earmark players where gaps present.
If they don't work out, they don't work out but you tried and list gaps open up opportunity. We can get what may seem to the better player but what's the point if he's a type we have an abundance of? Very little point at all. Not sure why we keep doing this.
 

Blue1980

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Posts
9,750
Likes
8,946
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
You can see how SOS has applied what he'd learnt at GWS, which is both a good thing and a bad thing.

He knows the value of early picks in that they provide a better chance of finding an elite player, while almost guaranteeing that the player wont be a bust. That is exceptionally useful when you're putting together a future team, and need some players to come in, earn their spot and then develop into the players that take the club forward.

My biggest issue with SOS is he gets tunnel vision when he wants a player and reaches - almost to the extreme - to get them to the club. At GWS he took Pat McKenna is an early second round pick, and took James Stewart in a similar range when Collingwood wouldn't even take him in the ND. Here he adds players who likely wouldn't be taken by any club in the ND, but are more speculative rookie selections. Polson and O'Dwyer are obvious examples of this. Sentimentality aside, I thought Kerr was an unnecessary pick, and we really should have gone after some state leaguers in that draft instead. He's still behind Curnow, McKay, McGovern and Casboult, and wont get an opportunity unless for injury. Speaking of McGovern - surely it was obvious he wasn't a must have. There's this line of thinking on Bigfooty that you don't knock back good players wanting to join your club (mainly championed by Tigers supporters justifying paying Tom Lynch a million per year to be a decoy to Jack Riewoldt), but there was no necessity to bring him in. His inclusion wouldn't have changed our fortunes this year, and he isn't the kind of player you target while you're setting up the core. I don't think he's got as much improvement as such suggest, and at this point, factoring in how good last years draft was, we probably just should have used the picks. Kerr could have got the opportunity this year to get some more AFL experience, and who knows? - Maybe he'd be a better option.

Garlett probably should have been a rookie pick. He had almost no form behind him at WAFL level, and there were concerns about his fitness and desire to get back to AFL level, and he hasn't made a huge fist of his second chance. That being said, we played him as a crumbing forward over the JLT in 2018, and he looked sharp and dangerous, and then come the season we was moved onto a more conventional wing position and didn't fire a shot. Now he's in defence. It's really hard to develop a player - especially one who's on the fringe - in multiple positions, and get the best out of them. Look at Polson: was drafted as an instinctive, inside/outside mid with good goal sense and decent disposal and has now been shunted into a forward pocket, where he's looked lost, despite his best efforts. Over time, those instincts have been knocked out of him, almost purely because we don't have any player competent enough to fill the small forward position, and he's being conditioned to defend first. At VFL level he cuts teams up in 5-minute bursts, and I wonder where he'd be at if we bothered to develop him in the midfield.

He was also far too determined to get Marchbank to the club, and in hindsight, how did we pay so much for a guy that was constantly injured and played barely any AFL footy? Another example of SOS stubbornly wanting a player, and ignoring the impact of giving up those picks. These days we'd probably get him for a token third rounder.

SOS' efforts in the rookie draft have also been appalling. He's largely just used those spots to prop up outgoing opposition players past their used-by dates. Were Matt Shaw or Tomas Bugg going to make much of a difference? SOS didn't really use the rookie draft to his advantage at GWS, minus getting in Zac Williams, and he's been lacklustre in bringing in rookie-style players here: state-leaguers, guys who were passed over in the ND due to some deficient or another, NB's players who know the squad and would integrate well into our system. This is the function of the rookie draft, and it is damning we haven't been able to leverage it.

Even the Stocker trade carries some apparent monomania. Yes, he rated Stocker highly, but his ignorance to the incredible risk, especially given our previous season was a little short-sighted. I liked what the trade signalled, but he overestimated the list and in looking at the demographic, was too hasty in pulling the trigger. Luckily Stocker will be a gun. IMO.

I love the Fisher and Cuningham picks, and we haven't got close to seeing the best of either. Once they improve their running patterns, and get some decent support around them, their skills will come to the fore. Cuningham was a minor reach at the time, but looks an inspired selection should Cunners fulfil his potential, which I think he will. The physicality in his game has gone up this year, which I previously didn't think he had, despite being competent enough as an inside midfielder at VFL level.

The thing with this rebuild is that it will take a long time to reveal how successful it is. We have drafted for the future, and in doing so, sacrificed performance in the present, and with this has possibly undercut the players as they've been forced to play senior footy from the get go. This can be good on the one hand, as they've got the best possible platform to be judged. But on the other hand, they're subject to the kind of scrutiny most young players don't have to deal with. Look at the embarrassing **** that gets slung at Dow, or the increasing pressure on Curnow. They'll have weeks and months where they struggle, which is normal for young players. Their form will fluctuate, and no player is immune, and it probably fluctuates even more in a struggling team.

I see parallels in GWS and the current Brisbane team (and probably even the Bulldogs 2016 team) to which a heap of confident, talented players get thrown together, and after a few years of mediocrity start getting into gear and start believing in what they're doing. That's the next stage for us as a club.

No doubt SOS has to improve as our list manager. He needs to start making use of the rookie draft, and stop being so one-dimensional when it comes to making ND picks; but if he can start finding AFL-standard players from the rough we'll be in a far better position going forward. We're currently going through a tumultuous period, and it seems everyone at the club is contributing to our on-field failure, but list management is only ever judged with hindsight, and currently I think he's doing an OK job. I'm hoping Agresta's success with late selections and rookie picks, and his knowledge in selecting in these areas is going to be of significant benefit, and will finally bring us some quality players through these avenues.
Probably the best summary of how SOS and our overall list build from 2015 until now that I have read, agree with almost all of that.

It will take a fair while longer to see if this will be successful or not, but one thing is for sure if we continue to be as poor from picks 30+ in the draft/rookie selections as we have been, we wont get to where we want to.

At least we have some talent on the list to work with though. We look to have a decent hit rate on the top 30 picks in that time with only LOB looming as potential bust. Others look to be at the very least solid afl players.
 
Top Bottom