Stop the boats. 5k a head. (cont. in Part 2)

[GuruJane]

If you are citing DFAT as a source that might be part of the problem. Need to go to sources that are a little closer to the frontlines of this..not some bureaucrats in Canberra.

Pazza. Could you possibly explain how anyone in Afghanistan could say how many Hazaras arrived in Australia amnd how many other Afghans arrived after 2008?

DFAT is the only one with that kind of info.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

I have tried but can't find anything from DFAT. I gather you do not know if shiite Hazaras are the majority of Afghan people smuggler customers who came here. Fair enough. Mids might be able to help.

As to the absence of UN refugee camps in Quetta, that in itself indicates there is no avalanche of Afghani refugees fleeing persecution unlike the camps hosting Syrian.. The Afghanis who pay PS to come here have access to sources of wealth in Afghanistan. That may be why they are not in refugee camps, again like the Syrians.

Department of Immigration website used to publish the stats. A simple google search is all it takes. You are so ignorant of the truth it is laughable.

Failing that.

Go to Dandenong and see the thousands of Hazara living there and ask how they got here. Or Shepparton.

The breakdown since the surge in arrivals began has been majority Iran, Sri Lanka and Afghan Hazara. No Sunni groups among them. Iraqi Sunnis also made up a decent number.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

The Afghanis who pay PS to come here have access to sources of wealth in Afghanistan. That may be why they are not in refugee camps, again like the Syrians.

The Hazara who have any money have in many cases worked assisting the US military against the Taliban. Sometimes as interpreters, sometimes as cleaners.

That said, having 10,000 dollars does not preclude someone from being a refugee. The fact you think it does demonstrates only that you have no understanding of what a refugee is.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Good article on the fate of the Hazara that were returned to Afghanistan

http://m.smh.com.au/national/lives-...nues-for-tampas-returnees-20110819-1j22q.html

 

[GuruJane]

Department of Immigration website used to publish the stats. A simple google search is all it takes. You are so ignorant of the truth it is laughable.

Failing that.

Go to Dandenong and see the thousands of Hazara living there and ask how they got here. Or Shepparton.

The breakdown since the surge in arrivals began has been majority Iran, Sri Lanka and Afghan Hazara. No Sunni groups among them. Iraqi Sunnis also made up a decent number.

If the stats are available from Dfat as you say then it would be easy for you to post the link. It is you who are claiming most of Afghan boat arrivals were Hazara so it is up to you to validate the claim if it is possible,.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

If the stats are available from Dfat as you say then it would be easy for you to post the link. It is you who are claiming most of Afghan boat arrivals were Hazara so it is up to you to validate the claim if it is possible,.

It is such common knowledge to anyone who has followed this issue over the years that Im actually surprised someone who posts about it as much as you is unaware of the fact.

I dont think you are a genuinely interested person, rather a staunch racist, so I will just say you can choose to educate yourself on the facts or not.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Good starting point for your education GJ http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/03/20/explainer-who-are-hazaras

 

[Theseventhhamster]

I know a bunch of people working for the department. RJ is right.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

For 2012-2013, the two record arrival years the breakdown is:

1. Afghanistan (vast majority Hazara)
2. Iran (Some Hazara but mostly Persians)
3. Pakistan (again mostly Hazara)
4. Stateless (this would likely be code for the Rohinga minority being ethnically cleansed un Myanmar)
5. Sri Lanka (Tamils facing genocide in Sri Lanka)
6. Iraq (Sunni who have a choice between the protection of ISIL or being ethnically cleansed by a Shia government)

Figures from www.glenmurray.com quoting an official immigration department report.

Important to note that Hazara and Iran make up well over 75% of the total, Hazara along accounting for about 60%) so my statement that the vast majority of arrivals to Australia have been Shia muslims fleeing Wahabbi violence is correct

 

[GuruJane]

www.glenmurray.com - comes up as a domain sale?

 

[VineyIsLORD]

And this is anecdotal so take it as you will but I used to volunteer with AMES and spend a couple of hours a week talking with refugees in my community to help them practice their english skills. I met a lot of Afghanis and all of them were Hazara.

GJ i forgot the .au i apologise. Here is the article. Look for table 34 about half way down.

www.glenmurray.com.au/australia-boat-people-illegal-policy/

 

[GuruJane]

All I'm getting is (IN)visible Practice.
Glen Murray Artistic Director

?? (ps appreciate the effort you are going to - I'm trying too with DFAT.)

 

[VineyIsLORD]

All I'm getting is (IN)visible Practice.
Glen Murray Artistic Director

?? (ps appreciate the effort you are going to - I'm trying too with DFAT.)

Thanks. It looks to me like a lot of the official statistics have been removed so perhaps i was a bit over the top calling you out for not looking at them.

I can definitely see the article on the link i provided though. And that directly references official stats

 

[JackOutback]

The per capita income of Afghanistan is around $2000 - how would possessions or property amounting to more than five times be available to pay a people smuggler? To illustrate - 5 times the Australian equivalent (42,000) would be over $200,000. In Afghani terms the $10,000 plus price of people smuggler is a huge amount of money.

If I sold my house and worldly possessions, I could raise $200,000. And I would do so to protect my wife and children.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

If I sold my house and worldly possessions, I could raise $200,000. And I would do so to protect my wife and children.

Or if you worked on an American military base for a year you could pocket 25k. Work as an interpreter and its even more than that

 

[GuruJane]

Thanks. It looks to me like a lot of the official statistics have been removed so perhaps i was a bit over the top calling you out for not looking at them.

I can definitely see the article on the link i provided though. And that directly references official stats

ah well, that website appears to have only one page and its nothing to do with asylum seekers just artistic stuff.

If I sold my house and worldly possessions, I could raise $200,000. And I would do so to protect my wife and children.

You could if you came from Afghanistan and earned around $40 a week - average per capita income?

Only Afghans with access to huge wealth can afford to pay people smugglers. They are not running from persecution into UN refugee camps in Quetta. They are economic migrants.

Good for them but each one of them who has made it here has taken the place of the true refugee, living in the UN camps like the Syrians are.

+

 

[VineyIsLORD]

ah well, that website appears to have only one page and its nothing to do with asylum seekers just artistic stuff.



You could if you came from Afghanistan and earned around $40 a week - average per capita income?

Only Afghans with access to huge wealth can afford to pay people smugglers. They are not running from persecution into UN refugee camps in Quetta. They are economic migrants.

Good for them but each one of them who has made it here has taken the place of the true refugee, living in the UN camps like the Syrians are.

+

This is not true.

There were tonnes of jobs supporting the American invasion and Hazara took them up en masse (the talibs wanted them dead either way, so why not make some good coin) likewise plenty of examples of Hazara who pooled money to send one family member to Australia exist. Or they borrow.

And all of that aside, wealth has no bearing on whether someone is a refugee or not, in fact its often the more educated who are targeted first by authoritarian regimes. The fact you think being able to get 10k precludes someone from being a real refugee suggests you do not have even a basic understanding of the definition of refugee

 

[romeohwho]

ah well, that website appears to have only one page and its nothing to do with asylum seekers just artistic stuff.



You could if you came from Afghanistan and earned around $40 a week - average per capita income?

Only Afghans with access to huge wealth can afford to pay people smugglers. They are not running from persecution into UN refugee camps in Quetta. They are economic migrants.

Good for them but each one of them who has made it here has taken the place of the true refugee, living in the UN camps like the Syrians are.

+

Citizens with an education are often considered the most dangerous by the authorities because they have the intellectual nouse to question things. These educated people are also more likely to have money in order to get that education, but it also means they are more likely to be persecuted. I can't understand why this is hard to get. Just because one has money, does not preclude one from being a refugee. Plenty of the Vietnamese who came here in the 70's were wealthy 'boat people'. And they were also in need to refuge. Simple.

 

[Sinjin Smith]

Citizens with an education are often considered the most dangerous by the authorities because they have the intellectual nouse to question things. These educated people are also more likely to have money in order to get that education, but it also means they are more likely to be persecuted. I can't understand why this is hard to get. Just because one has money, does not preclude one from being a refugee. Plenty of the Vietnamese who came here in the 70's were wealthy 'boat people'. And they were also in need to refuge. Simple.

I think this is where perception kicks in. Australia has a quota system for accepting refugees which then provides the moral statement we should take the most disadvantaged, poor and persecuted first. However this is pretty much impossible to do. Righteous yes but not feasible. The populace should not be blamed for thinking this way, it is understandable.

To GuruJane I have no idea of what the percentage of asylum seekers from Afghanistan is. I can only go from my experience with them in a volunteer role Dandenong and Camberwell in Melbourne. I must emphasise though that Sunnis in Afghanistan are also persecuted by........other Sunni groups. You need to remember Afghanistan is tribal, being part of the majority religious sect by no means guarantees freedom or even safety.

 

[GuruJane]

So. After all these years the latest story is that the Hazara all got wealthy by working for the Americans and that's how they could pay for people smuggler tickets to Australian citizenship. And of course explains why the UN hasn't set up a camp in Quetta. Very excellent story.

But wouldn't it have been better if they'd worked for the Australians? We brought all our interpreters and their families back with us.

 

[GuruJane]

This is not true.

There were tonnes of jobs supporting the American invasion and Hazara took them up en masse (the talibs wanted them dead either way, so why not make some good coin) likewise plenty of examples of Hazara who pooled money to send one family member to Australia exist. Or they borrow.

And all of that aside, wealth has no bearing on whether someone is a refugee or not, in fact its often the more educated who are targeted first by authoritarian regimes. The fact you think being able to get 10k precludes someone from being a real refugee suggests you do not have even a basic understanding of the definition of refugee

If they are refugees they would be in camps like the Syrians are.

 

[GuruJane]

I think this is where perception kicks in. Australia has a quota system for accepting refugees which then provides the moral statement we should take the most disadvantaged, poor and persecuted first. However this is pretty much impossible to do. Righteous yes but not feasible. The populace should not be blamed for thinking this way, it is understandable.

It's not hard. To get the most disadvantaged you go to the UN refugee camps. Millions waiting without hope..

 

[VineyIsLORD]

If they are refugees they would be in camps like the Syrians are.

Many of them are in camps and some aren't.

They are refugees. The approval ratings on their claims demonstrate that clearly. The fact so many that have been returned ended up killed also reinforces this.

 

[Sinjin Smith]

It's not hard. To get the most disadvantaged you go to the UN refugee camps. Millions waiting without hope..

Ok, go to a UN refugee camp, hear their cases and say "yeah thanks but no thanks we've found a more impoverished/persecuted family". I'm up for a discussion but this narrow view does not help. How many have access to UN camps anyway?

 

[Gough]

If we're worried about people in camps, let's talk aid budgets. There's a million or so Somalis that are about to find themselves with no place to go because nobody gives a f*** about Africa any more.