Mega Thread The 2016 Buckley Coaching Discussion

[No SPIN]

WE NEED DEW OR RATTEN

if there's a change in 2018 its needs to be a PROVEN - we dont want another "sacking" thread that will inevitably occur with either Dew or Ratten, after a few loses

 

[Get Smart 86]

It's time.
Everyone knows that Richmond plays that slow movement in the backline stuff.
Bucks knew like everyone else.
Didn't have a plan to stop it.

Either the players didn't understand or weren't interested.
Or Bucks had no idea.

Time to Go..............................

 

[noideaatall]

Roos is not available all the same.
Funny hang with Roos, premiership coach and GF coach? Absolutely.
Goes to Melbourne and list less than Sydney's list, quite average, hmmmm average results....
He made finals how many times with Melbourne?
Oh none, OK.....
And yes I absolutely rate him, big time.

Cattle required then the coach can have better success

Making finals is one measure of improvement but not necessarily the best one. Look at where Melbourne was when Roos took over, look at where they are now. I can see definite improvement. I am more impressed with Roos as a coach and as a professional now than I was when he left Sydney. He has come in, pretty much done what he said he would and the improvement is discernible. Can we say the same about Bucks? I can't.

I agree with you that we need the cattle. We don't need to wait until we have the cattle to assess the performance of our coach relative to the possible alternatives though.

 

[Maggie5]

Making finals is one measure of improvement but necessarily the best one. Look at where Melbourne was when Roos took over, look at where they are now. I can see definite improvement. I am more impressed with Roos as a coach and as a professional now than I was when he left Sydney. He has come in, pretty much done what he said he would and the improvement is discernible. Can we say the same about Bucks? I can't.

I agree with you that we need the cattle. We don't need to wait until we have the cattle to assess the performance of our coach relative to the possible alternatives though.

I don't think that Roos has done better than when Bailey was there. Bailey had a less talented squad as well.

 

[Royal Flash]

Your logic is flawed - if we have closed the gap against the BEST - then that's what counts, progress against the rest is less relevant.
That's why the term "flat track bullies' exists..

So fewer wins for the year (maybe) with a much poorer percentage means we've improved does it?

Umm...OK

 

[BPikkers]

You would be a fool not to believe that the wins against GEEL, GWS, WC and near miss against WB were not excellent performances - it's progress as I have said continually against TOP teams that can't be ignored. GWS result was excpetional considering how both Longmire and Clarkson were embarrased up there.

You forget that when we were 8-3 last year all the anti-bucks brigade were saying " we haven't beaten anyone".

Bucks is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

We got within a kick or two against Freo, Hawthorn and Sydney last year. It was a fairly good effort. You seem to think there are only 3 good teams this year and we have beaten them all. Can you explain our absolute drubbing against Sydney and WCE in Perth? What about north, Adelaide teaching us a lesson? We haven't played the Hawks as yet. To say we have improved based on beating Geelong, GWS and WCE once only is not a great measure.

Surprisingly you just completely dismiss losing against teams we should be expected to win against. You don't get to play finals footy beating only 2 or 3 top eight teams each year and losing against those in a similar ladder position to you. The way Melbourne beat us both times was terrible. They had the game won after 10mins. St Kilda ran rings around us. Port was just plain embarrassing at the G. Not to mention the blues, Tigers etc. you know most of the worst games of footy this year featured the Pies - whether we won or lost. An improvement in my eyes would have see us put up more competitive performances in the second half of the year against middle of the ring teams. I would have expected the guys to be a lot more fluid in their ball movement. Hit targets by foot and hand. A forward line which maybe worked a lot better. A defence that wasn't leaking the most ridiculous goals.

It's not just the win/loss, it's the terrible football we continue to dish up this late in the season. Maybe it's not Buckley's fault. But it sure is someone's because others clubs we are fighting for a top 8 spot have a lot more excitement ahead of them. The saints, Melbourne, port look infinitely better than us and will only continue to get better. Gold Coast are having a far better few weeks and will likely get better.

We are the next rung down with Richmond and Carlton. Not sure what to make of Essendon next year, but they could well leap ahead of us.

Personally, I don't think it's good enough. And I can't say because we have had wins against a couple of top 8 teams that I'm satisfied the year has been a success and we are heading in the right direction.

 

[BPikkers]

Your logic is flawed - if we have closed the gap against the BEST - then that's what counts, progress against the rest is less relevant.
That's why the term "flat track bullies' exists..

Closed the gap on the best?

Sydney lost by 80 points
WCE lost by 62 points (lucky they didn't kick straight)
Port lost by 68 points
Melb lost by 46 points
Adelaide lost by 28 points
North lost by 40 points.

Yep we beat Geel, GWS and WC once.

Still need to play the Hawks. If we lose that game we would have won 3 out of 9 games against top 8 teams. Hopefully we can beat WB this week. GC will be touch and go.

 

[noideaatall]

Four years ago Bucks stated the intention to improve the kicking skills of our side. I rate that a fail, the kicking skills of the best 22 or list in general are at best around the same, I tend to think they are actually worse.

Why? Lots of possible reasons, I favour a combined impact of connected factors: it hasn't been our highest priority in recruitment and we have made poor recruiting choices where it has been targeted. Our priority appears to be big bodied contested ball beasts. I rate that highly as a priority but balance is important and, based on this year, we have the balance wrong. Recruitment's like Young or Dwyer, for example, seem poor because despite foot skills those players never made it as regular best 22.

Some posters are suggesting this is a work in progress. I'm sure many of our players will improve over the next coming years but no way will the current list ever be seen as having high level skills in disposal or kicking. Even if I am wrong about this taking 5+ years to improve the kicking skills of our side is simply too long. Two years ago the average tenure of an AFL coach was four years.

What we want from a coach is to choose the right direction and be able to guide us down that path. I'm happy Bucks has chosen big bodied contested ball beasts as a pathway and with our passage on this journey so far. I am happy he identified kicking skills as a priority but not with the progress we have make on this pathway. This has nothing to do with MM, the past or supporter expectations. It is a stated intention by our coach and so becomes a clear measure of progress: can our coach do what he said he was going to do(in a timely fashion). Again, I rate it a fail. Not a fail that warrants sacking but certainly a factor when the position comes under consideration.

 

[CFC2010]

I don't think that Roos has done better than when Bailey was there. Bailey had a less talented squad as well.

Bailey's team never beat Collingwood.......Roos on the other hand..........

Roos has done a very good job at Melbourne Maggie5.

Changing the mentality at a basket case of a Club is very hard.........he definitely has achieved that.

 

[PicaBoo]

It's time.
Everyone knows that Richmond plays that slow movement in the backline stuff.
Bucks knew like everyone else.
Didn't have a plan to stop it.

Either the players didn't understand or weren't interested.
Or Bucks had no idea.

Time to Go..............................

If you were at the game on Friday, the fwd line was abysmal at stages. Check the tackle count. You think Bucks would have instructed not to harass the opposition? It wasn't as insipid as last years drubbing but not far off either.

 

[noideaatall]

I don't think that Roos has done better than when Bailey was there. Bailey had a less talented squad as well.

I don't know enough about our own list let alone Melbourne's list to make a before and after comparison and contribute to a discussion along those lines. What I saw is a rabble turned into a losing team with some measure of control and influence on the game. Confidence built out of that. Rather than looking at the list as a whole, look at an individual like Jack Watts who has improved markedly under Roos. Roos, from my limited perspective, appeared to have a clear plan as to how to progress the club and achieved that. I saw no clear plan under Bailey.

 

[frizzle]

If you were at the game on Friday, the fwd line was abysmal at stages. Check the tackle count. You think Bucks would have instructed not to harass the opposition? It wasn't as insipid as last years drubbing but not far off either.

Maybe if he didn't allow extra opposition players in our forward line we would be able to lay tackles there?
We seem to struggle against teams that play 7 defenders. North do it & Richmond did it on Friday night.

 

[BPikkers]

If you were at the game on Friday, the fwd line was abysmal at stages. Check the tackle count. You think Bucks would have instructed not to harass the opposition? It wasn't as insipid as last years drubbing but not far off either.

Forward line was dysfunctional. Has been for a while now. I'd say midfield delivery has been an issue, but no excuse for not tackling and keeping the ball in. So why is it so? Why aren't these guys doing better? Obviously not having Elliot, Fas and Moore doesn't help, but still no excuse to not compete and tackle. Terrible selection? Guys not interested? Flat? Why can't we get the best out of these guys? Why r they still there? What's been done to fix it over the past 12 months?

 

[surfer1]

This apparant obsession by a lot of posters with Ratten and Dew puzzles me. Could not stand either of them as players and would absolutely be gutted if they were the future coaching face of the Pies. I dont know the answer going forward only that I dont want either of them in a front position at the club

 

[Royal Flash]

I don't think that Roos has done better than when Bailey was there. Bailey had a less talented squad as well.

I don't recall too many results like this during the Roos tenure.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2011/091120110730.html

 

[nahnah]

This apparant obsession by a lot of posters with Ratten and Dew puzzles me. Could not stand either of them as players and would absolutely be gutted if they were the future coaching face of the Pies. I dont know the answer going forward only that I dont want either of them in a front position at the club

They're highly rated?! End of the day I value Collingwood winning games and premierships over how much likability the coach has.

 

[Maggie5]

I don't recall too many results like this during the Roos tenure.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2011/091120110730.html

Didn't have to click on the link to know which game you were going to point to.

 

[Maggie5]

This apparant obsession by a lot of posters with Ratten and Dew puzzles me. Could not stand either of them as players and would absolutely be gutted if they were the future coaching face of the Pies. I dont know the answer going forward only that I dont want either of them in a front position at the club

I do have some sympathy re Ratten though the way he was dismissed and may have learned a bit under Clarkson - would make a good assistant I think.

 

[Royal Flash]

Didn't have to click on the link to know which game you were going to point to.

Pretty unforgettable game and one of the first times I truly felt bad for an opposition side. Games should never be that uncompetitive (unless it's Collingwood dishing it out).

 

[Roverjg]

You would be a fool not to believe that the wins against GEEL, GWS, WC and near miss against WB were not excellent performances - it's progress as I have said continually against TOP teams that can't be ignored. GWS result was excpetional considering how both Longmire and Clarkson were embarrased up there.

You forget that when we were 8-3 last year all the anti-bucks brigade were saying " we haven't beaten anyone".

Bucks is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

You are on the money No Spin....last year we beat the teams we should have but could not beat the top teams. This year we beat some of the teams in the eight but couldn't come close to the teams we should have beat. So if we can't beat the teams that we should, we have in fact gone backwards

 

[Maggie5]

Bailey's team never beat Collingwood.......Roos on the other hand..........

Roos has done a very good job at Melbourne Maggie5.

Changing the mentality at a basket case of a Club is very hard.........he definitely has achieved that.

Beating us is your yardstick? Think he was on the right track though, don't forget the team he had and lack of support from AFL/Club.
Four players left from that big loss to Geelong in 2011.
Someone mentioned Watts, it has taken him 8 years to show some consistency.
Bailey started with a winning percentage of 13.64% and in his last year had them at 44.12%
Roos has a team of 1st rounders and his current coaching record for this year is 47.37%.

I take a bit of interest in Melbourne as it is my most disliked team, obnoxious supporters so revel in their loses.

 

[PieBeast]

Under Roos Melbourne have beaten a lot of sides they couldn't beat for years - us, Hawks, Geelong, probably more.

It's utterly laughable to suggest they haven't improved under him.

 

[PicaBoo]

Forward line was dysfunctional. Has been for a while now. I'd say midfield delivery has been an issue, but no excuse for not tackling and keeping the ball in. So why is it so? Why aren't these guys doing better? Obviously not having Elliot, Fas and Moore doesn't help, but still no excuse to not compete and tackle. Terrible selection? Guys not interested? Flat? Why can't we get the best out of these guys? Why r they still there? What's been done to fix it over the past 12 months?

A few answers. Fwd line has been the least cohesive unit this season.Without Moore and Fasolo we are simply not threatening enough or create contests to exploit. With both of them out, others need to lift and they didn't.
Structural. Can't think of many selections failures with the limited selection options that we had. Cloke has been given chances and taken one before dropping off. Gault never got even in the frame. Med fwds only Fasolo did well. Blair has been passable at times.
After Friday I don't expect Blair and Cloke to come back next year.
Blair for his uncharacteristically low output, Cloke for the usual reason.
Cox I want to see what his next game brings before commenting White was down too but i have come to expect his mediocrity and he gets dragged with the teams performance quite often.
Crocker is in his 1st yr. Can't and won't blame him.
What has been done. Friday it was Williams to the fwd line. Not the first time Bucks switches players from defense to offense to inject a game changer. Not much result. Maybe Reid next time?

 

[Maggie5]

Under Roos Melbourne have beaten a lot of sides they couldn't beat for years - us, Hawks, Geelong, probably more.

It's utterly laughable to suggest they haven't improved under him.

What is to say another coach wouldn't have achieved the same under the same circumstances?
Utterly laughable to put it down to Roos.

 

[DWil6]

Under Roos Melbourne have beaten a lot of sides they couldn't beat for years - us, Hawks, Geelong, probably more.

It's utterly laughable to suggest they haven't improved under him.

I agree they have improved under him but you'd think any half decent coach could get a team of high draft picks up and around the finals. How much of their current 'success' you can attribute to Roos is entirely debatable. I sense even I could have made them start winning. Even a basket case like Melbourne eventually will come good given the benefits you receive for constantly finishing down the bottom.
Those nutters would probably be top 4 under Clarkson!