The Academies - 2016

[JasRulz63]

Was smith part of the Academy as he is 22 when Rookied?

Yes, he was formerly in the Brisbane Lions academy.

Eric Hipwood, Ben Keays, Corey Wagner, Wylie Buzza, Rueben William, Mabior Chol, Josh Smith, Josh Wagner and Matt Uebergang have all been through the Hyundai Help for Kids Lions Academy

 

[philthy05]

I'm talking pre-academy, so no slight on developing areas in either case. The anti-Riverina arguments just love glossing over the actual facts:

- Before the academy changes, the Riverina only produced one player taken in the National Draft in ten years.
- After the academy changes, the Riverina starts producing players again.

Because people don't like other teams get talented players, Riverina is now deemed a rich pipeline of talent - except there hadn't been any evidence of that pipeline in years until GWS got involved. Now GWS should be getting out? This "rich pipeline" will dry up just as quickly as it did before they got involved.

If your argument is you can get more afl prospects from the Riverina with academies then without then that argument could be used for just about any area in Australia. Why would we not have academies for all 18 teams all across the nation if that argument is what academies are about?

But to be serious that's not what the academies are for are they.


1. Develop hometown talent and give first access to them for the teams in non traditional footy areas so they can have a more sustainable and equitable ratio of hometown and interstate players.

This is far and away the single most important reason these academies came into being

2. Grow the game in the non traditional footy areas.

3. Recruit athletes from outside of football or give athletes access to professional coaching they would not had the chance to access.


1. Gws already have access to plenty of hometown talent without the Riverina area.

2. Riverina is not a non traditional footy area

3. People in the Riverina have access to football pathways as much as you could expect any other country town in any football heartland do.



I also find your claims on players that have come from the Riverina rather dubious. I think there may be some manipulation of what you are calling "come from the Riverina". A quick Google search of Riverina footballers reads like football royalty , and I care very much to compare any batch of players from a country area such as the Riverina to a country area from a football heartland such as port Lincoln , Clare or Roxby downs. I bet you will not find such a disparity in the Riverina to act like gws are some saviours delivering football to some unwashed masses. If Riverina footballers are being discounted from your example because you would like to point out they had to move away from the town to access coaching I would counter with how many players recruited from port Lincoln do you think went straight from their leagues to the afl , and not via a move to the sanfl ?

 

[TradeDraft]

Yes, he was formerly in the Brisbane Lions academy.

So why was he not even Mentioned in his Draft Year as a Draftee but few years later be Rookied?

 

[dlanod]

Then the AFL should let teams to sign who ever they want from there Zones then and not just Multicultural people then

Congratulations. Even the simplest analysis would not deliberately ignore the numbers of draftees the areas produced prior to any changes.

Was smith part of the Academy as he is 22 when Rookied?

Yep, that's why I listed him. He was an academy product - he came through the academy. Uebergang and J. Wagner were the same.

I forgot Geelong (Buzza) too. :O

If your argument is you can get more afl prospects from the Riverina with academies then without then that argument could be used for just about any area in Australia. Why would we not have academies for all 18 teams all across the nation if that argument is what academies are about?

Areas that are underproducing, sure. I don't think anyone can argue realistically that most of Victoria, SA and WA have underproduced talent over the last 10 years (waiting for the inevitable "WA had shit draftees last year").

But to be serious that's not what the academies are for are they.

It's one of several reasons.

1. Develop hometown talent and give first access to them for the teams in non traditional footy areas so they can have a more sustainable and equitable ratio of hometown and interstate players.

This is far and away the single most important reason these academies came into being

2. Grow the game in the non traditional footy areas.

3. Recruit athletes from outside of football or give athletes access to professional coaching they would not had the chance to access.

Agree with all of these, but I actually think the AFL's priority is #2 (more participants == more AFL fans == more $$$).

1. Gws already have access to plenty of hometown talent without the Riverina area.

2. Riverina is not a non traditional footy area

3. People in the Riverina have access to football pathways as much as you could expect any other country town in any football heartland do.

I also find your claims on players that have come from the Riverina rather dubious. I think there may be some manipulation of what you are calling "come from the Riverina". A quick Google search of Riverina footballers reads like football royalty , and I care very much to compare any batch of players from a country area such as the Riverina to a country area from a football heartland such as port Lincoln , Clare or Roxby downs. I bet you will not find such a disparity in the Riverina to act like gws are some saviours delivering football to some unwashed masses. If Riverina footballers are being discounted from your example because you would like to point out they had to move away from the town to access coaching I would counter with how many players recruited from port Lincoln do you think went straight from their leagues to the afl , and not via a move to the sanfl ?

I'm actually in favour of clubs having academies in underserved areas in traditional states. Potentially rural areas of SA, WA, Vic, etc, that don't produce draftees as their population would indicate. I think the success of the Riverina is a great example to follow, so there's a fair chance we're actually in agreement here.

The Riverina used to produce regular quality draftees, but in the last 10 years it's been minimal. Feel free to double check it and point out players I've missed, but based on my search Duryea is the only player taken from the NSW side of the Riverina in the National Draft last 10 years. There's been the rookie draft (Breust), there's been some that have moved away and gotten drafted (Smith), but each of those massively increases the chances of a potential draftee not making it to the AFL because it's a hurdle they have to jump.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The only reasons academies were brought into place is that the previous scheme (NSW Scholarships) was a failure, your club and every other club could have invested time/money into developing NSW kids but didnt, the closest we really got was Collingwood / Hawthorn taking some cream off the top but no real investment. (and this was because it actually made no sense for teams to invest under that system)

You can't have a free-for all where everyone gets the benefits, with 1 club bearing the cost, it just doesnt work.
As long as the AFL is leaving it to the individual northern clubs to run the academies then those clubs will need some benefit out of it.

Which is why the academies should not be run by the clubs.

 

[dlanod]

Which is why the academies should not be run by the clubs.

The AFL ran talent development in the northern states for years. They were the one that decided it had failed so brought in the clubs. Now it's successful people want to go back to a failed system?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The AFL ran talent development in the northern states for years. They were the one that decided it had failed so brought in the clubs. Now it's successful people want to go back to a failed system?

They obviously didn't do it properly. Someone earlier in the thread said it was up to the clubs with the NSW scholarship programs. So which was it? AFL run academies or club based scholarship programs?

Either way, just because something wasn't done properly the first time doesn't mean it can't be fixed and done properly now. When the alternative is to hand priority picks to a handful of clubs every year its obvious which is the preferred option - that is if we are genuinely talking about a professional competition that doesn't handicap some clubs at the expense of everyone else.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

If you can't realise that clubs operating in a non-AFL state are in a fundamentally different environment to every other club, you're desperately short-sighted.

Are we playing in a professional competition? Look at the NFL or the NBA - some teams in the middle of nowhere have trouble retaining players who would rather play in California or New York but they don't special access to players at the draft, they don't get additional space in the salary cap. It's time for the AFL to grow up and start acting like professionally and not like some amateur comp where some clubs are given a leg up because they struggle to compete.

 

[JasRulz63]

So why was he not even Mentioned in his Draft Year as a Draftee but few years later be Rookied?

Maybe he wasn't good enough then, but has developed to be good enough now? Not sure why that changes whether he was in the academy or not?

 

[dlanod]

They obviously didn't do it properly. Someone earlier in the thread said it was up to the clubs with the NSW scholarship programs. So which was it? AFL run academies or club based scholarship programs?

Both.

The AFL ran development.

Clubs cherry picked talent in NSW but didn't worry about development.

if we are genuinely talking about a professional competition that doesn't handicap some clubs at the expense of everyone else.

I know. I must say, I hate my club having to travel every second week. I hate my club losing out on players because they can't earn as much off the field during and after their careers in their state as they can elsewhere. I hate having to pick players from other states because of the increased go-home risk while clubs like Melbourne have 60% homegrown players on their senior list compared to Brisbane's 25%. I sure look forward to this professional competition that doesn't handicap some clubs at the expense of everyone else.

 

[JasRulz63]

Are we playing in a professional competition? Look at the NFL or the NBA - some teams in the middle of nowhere have trouble retaining players who would rather play in California or New York but they don't special access to players at the draft, they don't get additional space in the salary cap. It's time for the AFL to grow up and start acting like professionally and not like some amateur comp where some clubs are given a leg up because they struggle to compete.

Not sure the NBA is a good example when they have a soft cap allowing teams to go over the salary cap and pay luxury tax to keep players meaning more wealthy teams can afford to pay more.

 

[dlanod]

Are we playing in a professional competition? Look at the NFL or the NBA - some teams in the middle of nowhere have trouble retaining players who would rather play in California or New York but they don't special access to players at the draft, they don't get additional space in the salary cap. It's time for the AFL to grow up and start acting like professionally and not like some amateur comp where some clubs are given a leg up because they struggle to compete.

We're not in America. If those NFL and NBA teams lose out, will the people there stop playing and following those sports? Nope, because those sports and leagues are dominant everywhere. Have you been to Brisbane or Sydney or even other areas in these states and seen what kind of penetration AFL has up here? Basically you're just arguing in favour of an AFL competition limited the southern states. That's fine if that's your opinion, but just own up to it.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Both.

The AFL ran development.

Clubs cherry picked talent in NSW but didn't worry about development.

Again, if the AFL mishandled things that is not evidence that they can't be run properly in the future. Increasing the talent pool through AFL run academies will still give the northern clubs a better chance at drafting homegrown talent without giving them priority picks.

I know. I must say, I hate my club having to travel every second week. I hate my club losing out on players because they can't earn as much off the field during and after their careers in their state as they can elsewhere. I hate having to pick players from other states because of the increased go-home risk while clubs like Melbourne have 60% homegrown players on their senior list compared to Brisbane's 25%. I sure look forward to this professional competition that doesn't handicap some clubs at the expense of everyone else.

Now you're just resorting to farcical argument of some other non-Vic supporters who think their clubs should have 17 home games a year in the interests of "fairness". You don't really want to go down that rabbit hole do you?

Melbourne is at risk of losing Hogan - does that mean we deserve special consideration? Or should we just figure out a way to retain him and/or get something decent back in a trade? We've lost other players over the journey as well, including a no. 1 draft pick...

Talking about off-field earnings is also ridiculous - Melbourne or Footscray players would struggle to earn as much in endorsements compared to Collingwood or Hawthorn players. Does that mean we should get extra salary cap assistance? It's farcical. We are talking about the competition and things in the competitions control. The draft, the salary cap and the fixture - these should all be equitable and not used as tools to give some clubs leg ups over the rest.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Not sure the NBA is a good example when they have a soft cap allowing teams to go over the salary cap and pay luxury tax to keep players meaning more wealthy teams can afford to pay more.

Every team has that option though. It's not restricted to only teams from the small towns.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

We're not in America. If those NFL and NBA teams lose out, will the people there stop playing and following those sports? Nope, because those sports and leagues are dominant everywhere. Have you been to Brisbane or Sydney or even other areas in these states and seen what kind of penetration AFL has up here? Basically you're just arguing in favour of an AFL competition limited the southern states. That's fine if that's your opinion, but just own up to it.

No, I'm arguing in favour of a fairly administered competition. I would love the competition to expand and take over the northern states but not if it means clubs like Saints, Dogs and Melbourne will be shafted out of premierships because the AFL wants a successful team in the expansion states.

NFL and NBA teams have the problem of losing people - check out some of the crowds in Jacksonville or Tampa over the last few years. They may not be lost to the sport but they'll definitely focus more on their college or high school teams rather than the NFL teams.

 

[Colonial]

Hang on, I thought this was a professional competition? To think some clubs should get multiple priority picks in the draft each year (which is what academy and yes Father/Son selections are) just because there's a risk the players they draft might decide to leave in a couple of years is ludicrous. If you can't compete on an equal footing with the rest of the clubs relying on an uncompromised draft and salary cap then maybe you're not viable as an AFL club.

Not an equal footing when players bolt home with homesickness at every opportunity.

I know this is hard for traditionalists to understand but for northern clubs its a critical deficiency for us

 

[dlanod]

Again, if the AFL mishandled things that is not evidence that they can't be run properly in the future. Increasing the talent pool through AFL run academies will still give the northern clubs a better chance at drafting homegrown talent without giving them priority picks.

Yep, and I fully expect the AFL to take over the academies once they've proven to be sustainable. Not two years in.

Now you're just resorting to farcical argument of some other non-Vic supporters who think their clubs should have 17 home games a year in the interests of "fairness". You don't really want to go down that rabbit hole do you?

Melbourne is at risk of losing Hogan - does that mean we deserve special consideration? Or should we just figure out a way to retain him and/or get something decent back in a trade? We've lost other players over the journey as well, including a no. 1 draft pick...

Talking about off-field earnings is also ridiculous - Melbourne or Footscray players would struggle to earn as much in endorsements compared to Collingwood or Hawthorn players. Does that mean we should get extra salary cap assistance? It's farcical. We are talking about the competition and things in the competitions control. The draft, the salary cap and the fixture - these should all be equitable and not used as tools to give some clubs leg ups over the rest.

So you don't want a professional competition that doesn't handicap some clubs at the expense of everyone else, as you claimed. You just want to remove a leg up that a couple of other clubs have.

NFL and NBA teams have the problem of losing people - check out some of the crowds in Jacksonville or Tampa over the last few years. They may not be lost to the sport but they'll definitely focus more on their college or high school teams rather than the NFL teams.

The NFL and NBA won't. The individual teams might, but then they'll just move somewhere else instead (hello, LA Rams), but regardless of what happens people will still play and follow basketball and gridiron.

We've already seen what will happen with the largely self-inflicted collapse of the Brisbane Lions in the northern states - the AFL will basically be irrelevant in them when it comes to kids, to viewership and hence sponsorship and broadcasting. That's not what the AFL wants.

You can argue whether you believe the AFL's aims there are right or not, but those are the aims its working towards and that's a substantial part of the academy plan. Local talent means less homesickness issues for the clubs, more visibility for local kids as to getting to their club, more investment into grassroots footy in the northern states.

philthy did a great summary of the aims:

1. Develop hometown talent and give first access to them for the teams in non traditional footy areas so they can have a more sustainable and equitable ratio of hometown and interstate players.

This is far and away the single most important reason these academies came into being

2. Grow the game in the non traditional footy areas.

3. Recruit athletes from outside of football or give athletes access to professional coaching they would not had the chance to access.

 

[Colonial]

I'll be sure to remember this next time someone mentions Hogan going back west.

And you have an entire state of kids begging to play footy to replace him

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

I'll be sure to remember this next time someone mentions Hogan going back west.

Have a look at the talent that GWS, Brisbane and Gold Coast have lost in the past 5 years, then compare it to the potential to lose a player, then can you still argue that homesickness isnt a bigger issue to the Northern clubs.

 

[philthy05]

I have no problem with teams having academies for the reasons I stated.

I just think there is a couple of things I don't like that should be fixed , ie use of very low picks like late 3rd round and 4th round picks can be used to bid on first round talent and taking players who have access to very good training programs anyway like tac and boarding schools in vic and talent being taken away from competing in the local leagues of these non traditional states. If they want to draft talent in the region , and influence kids and supporters in the region then take kids from the region into the academy and keep them in the region. If hopper wants to board and play tac over gws academy then that is his decision but it shouldn't be both.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Not an equal footing when players bolt home with homesickness at every opportunity.

I know this is hard for traditionalists to understand but for northern clubs its a critical deficiency for us

Happens to all clubs, it's not something that only happens to new franchises.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

I have no problem with teams having academies for the reasons I stated.

I just think there is a couple of things I don't like that should be fixed , ie use of very low picks like late 3rd round and 4th round picks can be used to bid on first round talent and taking players who have access to very good training programs anyway like tac and boarding schools in vic and talent being taken away from competing in the local leagues of these non traditional states. If they want to draft talent in the region , and influence kids and supporters in the region then take kids from the region into the academy and keep them in the region. If hopper wants to board and play tac over gws academy then that is his decision but it shouldn't be both.

The advantage an Academy side gets by downgrading is minor, they might come out 50-100 points better off, which equates to a pick in the 60s. Theres also a high element of risk as it show your hand, meaning the club are forced to match any bids , or they'll be left with a bunch of downgraded picks otherwise and picks they don't have roster space for. The advantage of this system is it gives teams the access to easily trade up, which every team has the opportunity to do.

The TAC is a issue, but no agreement should stop a young player playing in the best development program, just because he's signed into another program. I agree there needs to be some regulation from them just signing talent and not having anything to do with their development, I also think the issues will be the first to be addressed as some have been raised already

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Have a look at the talent that GWS, Brisbane and Gold Coast have lost in the past 5 years, then compare it to the potential to lose a player, then can you still argue that homesickness isnt a bigger issue to the Northern clubs.

Ryan Griffen, Dayne Beams, Allen Christensen - it's not one way traffic. Clubs get something back in a trade as well it's not like they're leaving as free agents.

I agree there is an issue with player retention in the expansion states but I don't think the academies (in their current form at least) are the way to go about solving it.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

And you have an entire state of kids begging to play footy to replace him

Supporters from your club are sounding more and more like a pack of fat kids who want to increase disability payments because they are so hungry for more hamburgers... The number of draft picks the AFL has orchestrated, yes yes at the agreement of the clubs including mine, more than compensates GWS for any players moving back home. I'm yet to hear one coherent argument that explains why the AFL can't run the academies as they stand today for the benefit of all clubs. It's patently ridiculous.

 

[Colonial]

Happens to all clubs, it's not something that only happens to new franchises.

Very true but not on the level of the north.
Your club is based in the heartland. You wouldnt know.