The Academies - 2016

[JasRulz63]

Just like private health insurance, the academies are a rort.
Why do you think the Giants and Swines presidents etc are defending it so vigorously.
Would you want to give something up if it was such an advantage to you. We live in a welfare state and this is nothing more than welfare for a select few.
No one else can jump the draft to get top end talent and get a discount for doing so.

I suggest that every club should be able to establish an academy and recruit to their academy from wherever they like. Perhaps allow an annual take of 10 kids per year from age 14 or 15...??
If the AFL wants to promote development in the northern states, the mandate that every club every club has at least 2 NSW/QLD kids on in the academy.

I also suggest that academy spending should be included as part of football department spending and subject to the soft cap and luxury tax.

Give every club the same opportunities.

As has been said earlier in this thread, it's the difference between equality and equity. The nature of the league makes it inherently advantageous for Victorian teams. For example, Hawthorn play four home games in Tasmania, get paid for doing so and still end up with 13 games in their home state, yet all interstate clubs only get 12 games in their home state without playing home games interstate. Why is there nothing in place to address this disadvantage?

 

[dlanod]

Didnt we have zone selections back then, and the zone was changed not long before Roo was drafted?

We did, but we tried to have the zone extended to 100 km from 50 km to include all of the QAFL clubs. That would've got us Riewoldt, but the proposal got knocked back.

 

[1892]

of the last 10 AFL premiers 9 have been victorian based.

the swans the only ones to buck this alarming trend in the game that has cast the 8 interstate clubs into the wasteland of AFL irelevance. time to have an inquiry into what has led to this systemic failure in equalization.

but wait an interstate team just beat an out of form premiership team by 12 goals in a one off game, let's act immediately it's geelong or norths turn this year.

as the VFL centric media dutifully follow their puppet master.

#armageddonisnow

While that's true only 3 Victorian clubs have won the flag and if you take a broader view and look at grand finalists, it's 4 vs 4.

Hawthorn's sustained success is also partly a result the start up concessions, they structured and managed their list well with more mature aged recruits in the face of compromised drafts and other clubs were unable to bring top talent in to climb the ladder quicker.

 

[Garlic muncher]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/vic...l/news-story/2af9815040e02dbd12d221bfefb9a7a2

Victorian clubs score win: GWS Giants to miss out on academy prospect Todd Marshall

 

[isamedthegiants]

It's been two days, I've given you plenty of opportunity, you still can't argue a point properly. Please direct me to some other GWS fans who can do this properly and keep working on those ad homs son.

Peace

Plenty of opportunity?

You've given me nothing.

 

[Giant Strides]

Because Gold Coast didn't beat Hawthorn.
Cairns is a bit of an AFL hotspot and has nurtured players like Charman, Dixon, Dempsey, Harbrow and more. So yeah... guess they've got a better recent strike rate than both the Riverina and your efforts to make a correct point.

Love it when you take them out with a precision strike, dlanod!

While that's true only 3 Victorian clubs have won the flag and if you take a broader view and look at grand finalists, it's 4 vs 4.

Which actually further supports his point about the inherent advantages of the Victorian clubs in winning premierships ...

 

[Garlic muncher]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/syd...l/news-story/f42959da8226db1a5a89205ca05fbd48

Sydney and GWS Academy benefactor slams calls for Riverina zone removal

 

[Zach Package]

Cairns is a bit of an AFL hotspot and has nurtured players like Charman, Dixon, Dempsey, Harbrow and more. So yeah... guess they've got a better recent strike rate than both the Riverina and your efforts to make a correct point.

And more? Was looking earlier today because I wanted to get a feel for what's come out of each 4 of the catchment areas, and the list I had amounted to Dixon, Dempsey, Harbrow, Rex Liddy, Che Cockatoo Collins and Tim Notting since 2000.

Bowes will be the first draftee out of Cairns in 10 years (Dixon and Liddy were pre-selections).

 

[1892]

Love it when you take them out with a precision strike, dlanod!


Which actually further supports his point about the inherent advantages of the Victorian clubs in winning premierships ...

On face value I'd agree, but not if you look a little deeper. Plus they were good enough to make the GF.

2007 Geel v Port - PA went in as rank outsiders and the result showed, a 100 point margin isn't a Victorian advantage

2013 Haw v Freo - Lyon's game plan wasn't any different to the one didn't work a few years earlier with a Victorian club in '09 and '10

2014 Haw v Syd - reversal of '12, so one a piece

2015 Haw v WC - Undoubtedly the home ground advantage helped Hawthorn in the GF or probably more accurately hurt WC. As we seen the week before great sides will overcome travel and an unfamiliar ground, if it wasn't for this it would have been an all WA grand final.​

 

[Suma Magic]

Look at the previous 15 years.

Quick count gives 8 flags to non-vic teams.

As a non-vic supporter, I have no qualms with any advantages they get. The most important things for me are equal opportunity at the draft and in salary cap.

 

[Redeye Rambler]

"in the long run they are expected to relinquish NSW players from just over the border from towns such as Albury, Wentworth, Deniliquin and Broken Hill."

Broken Hill isn't "just over the border". It is more northern than Newcastle.

this point piqued my interest
"But the prevailing view is that the Murray part of the zone will be phased out in the near future, on the grounds that this area is essentially AFL territory, while the Riverina is a region in which there is some competition with the rugby codes"

While I don't like the AFL habit of constantly changing the rules - especially when influential people campaign for changes, I think there has always been scope to make adjustments to the academy system in order to maintain balance.
The southern areas of the Riverina have always identified more closely with Melbourne than they do with Sydney. Perhaps clubs within the Murray Bushrangers catchment, or clubs playing in Vic country leagues may make a more natural football border.

 

[kreglze]

It's begun, as soon as the Victorian power players turned their eyes to the southern GWS academy zones, the AFL was always going to wilt to the pressure. Weak by the AFL to do it half way through a season.

 

[Redeye Rambler]

We will know that the academies are working when young talent don't feel that they have to move to Victorian boarding schools to develop their football career.

 

[Redeye Rambler]

Look at the previous 15 years.

Quick count gives 8 flags to non-vic teams.

As a non-vic supporter, I have no qualms with any advantages they get. The most important things for me are equal opportunity at the draft and in salary cap.

While we accept that these are equalisation measures, they aren't perfect. Neither of these are equal to every club. The draft has always been compromised (priority etc)and inherently favours the bottom clubs more (draft order). The salary cap is only partly effective at maintaining a fair distribution of talent across the clubs.
The AFL need to continually monitor equalisation across the league to ensure that all clubs have a fair opportunity to compete and be successful.


FWIW, IMO, the most important benefit of the Lions academy to the Brisbane Lions, is being able increase to Queensland base of its playing list.

Equity ≠ equalisation

 

[Suma Magic]

While we accept that these are equalisation measures, they aren't perfect. Neither of these are equal to every club. The draft has always been compromised (priority etc)and inherently favours the bottom clubs more (draft order). The salary cap is only partly effective at maintaining a fair distribution of talent across the clubs.
The AFL need to continually monitor equalisation across the league to ensure that all clubs have a fair opportunity to compete and be successful.


FWIW, IMO, the most important benefit of the Lions academy to the Brisbane Lions, is being able increase to Queensland base of its playing list.

Equity ≠ equalisation

I agree with your post.

Especially the second paragraph. Your view however, puts you at odds with many supporters of Northern clubs. Many argue that the discount is more important, which astonishes me.

 

[Procrastinator35]

It's begun, as soon as the Victorian power players turned their eyes to the southern GWS academy zones, the AFL was always going to wilt to the pressure. Weak by the AFL to do it half way through a season.

That's not the issue though.

Most of the lads GWS have first dibs on, come from towns just over the Victorian border. Such as Albury & Lavington for example.

Such areas as these have always been serviced & developed by the Murray Bushies & the Bendigo Pioneers.

For GWS to lay claim to these lads as a part of it's own 'exclusive academy', is fanciful, to say the least.

The establishment of the Northern Academies was premised upon 'development of traditionally non-football areas'.....The Riverina & south, all the way to the Murray; Are traditional Aussie-rules country.

Allowing a GWS monopoly, post establishment set-up, is too great an advantage over the rest of the comp....That much should be obvious.

 

[Colonial]

Just like private health insurance, the academies are a rort.
Why do you think the Giants and Swines presidents etc are defending it so vigorously.
Would you want to give something up if it was such an advantage to you. We live in a welfare state and this is nothing more than welfare for a select few.
No one else can jump the draft to get top end talent and get a discount for doing so.

I suggest that every club should be able to establish an academy and recruit to their academy from wherever they like. Perhaps allow an annual take of 10 kids per year from age 14 or 15...??
If the AFL wants to promote development in the northern states, the mandate that every club every club has at least 2 NSW/QLD kids on in the academy.

I also suggest that academy spending should be included as part of football department spending and subject to the soft cap and luxury tax.

Give every club the same opportunities.

Your last line is amusing considering the rest of your post.

Would love for the last line to be true. But victoria would implode.

 

[kreglze]

That's not the issue though.

Most of the lads GWS have first dibs on, come from towns just over the Victorian border. Such as Albury & Lavington for example.

Such areas as these have always been serviced & developed by the Murray Bushies & the Bendigo Pioneers.

For GWS to lay claim to these lads as a part of it's own 'exclusive academy', is fanciful, to say the least.

The establishment of the Northern Academies was premised upon 'development of traditionally non-football areas'.....The Riverina & south, all the way to the Murray; Are traditional Aussie-rules country.

Allowing a GWS monopoly, post establishment set-up, is too great an advantage over the rest of the comp....That much should be obvious.

I completely agree that it needs to be assessed and reconstructed, but doing it in the middle of the season when GWS have been building a list that was probably strategising for the past 5 months that this bloke would be there is unfair to them. It is like changing the goalposts half way through a game.

 

[M Malice]

While that's true only 3 Victorian clubs have won the flag and if you take a broader view and look at grand finalists, it's 4 vs 4.

Hawthorn's sustained success is also partly a result the start up concessions, they structured and managed their list well with more mature aged recruits in the face of compromised drafts and other clubs were unable to bring top talent in to climb the ladder quicker.

there was a hint of sarcasm and irony intended in my post.

in that in the 10 years before 2007 8 of the 10 premiers were from interstate and i remember at the time there was a hell of an uproar re. the impending interstate domination of the AFL continuing, which resulted in the winding back of salary cap concession and cola for the lions and swans. not such an outcry now re. the same circumstance in reverse.

my view on the academies is they need to stay under the umbrella of the club not AFL run, a big advantage for teams like the broncos is that they can sign up 14/15 year olds on a scholarship type contract, maybe a concession could be a sliding scale of discount on the lodged bid. eg.

1st round bid- 20%
2nd round bid- 10%
any further bids- no discount but can match.

or no matter where bid on.

1st player bid on- 20%
2nd- 15%
3rd- 10%
subsequent bids- no discount.

 

[dlanod]

And more? Was looking earlier today because I wanted to get a feel for what's come out of each 4 of the catchment areas, and the list I had amounted to Dixon, Dempsey, Harbrow, Rex Liddy, Che Cockatoo Collins and Tim Notting since 2000.

Bowes will be the first draftee out of Cairns in 10 years (Dixon and Liddy were pre-selections).

That's roughly the list I had (plus Charman, a non-native). It's a bit of interest purely as an ex-Cairns boy with mates who played in the comp. Dixon alone is better than anything out of the Riverina since McIntosh.

 

[dlanod]

That's not the issue though.

Most of the lads GWS have first dibs on, come from towns just over the Victorian border. Such as Albury & Lavington for example.

"Most"?

Albury:

Sproule (2016)
Lynch (2016)
Setterfield (2016)

At least an hour from the border:

Flynn (2015, Narrandera)
Himmelberg (2015, Mangoplah)
Kennedy (2015, Collingullie)
Hopper (2015, Leeton)
Mutch (2016, Broken Hill)
Macreadie (2016, Henty. Ok, this is 51 minutes according to Google but it's closer to my mark than the border.)
Perryman (2016, Collingullie)

Such areas as these have always been serviced & developed by the Murray Bushies & the Bendigo Pioneers.

Largely true, given all three of the Albury kids are in the Bushrangers. Unfortunately your base assumption (since you obviously didn't bother checking) is incorrect as to where "most of the lads" are coming from. Most are coming from around the Wagga area, which is quite a distance from the border.

 

[Mr Magic]

Look at the previous 15 years.

Quick count gives 8 flags to non-vic teams.

As a non-vic supporter, I have no qualms with any advantages they get. The most important things for me are equal opportunity at the draft and in salary cap.

I think this is an elitist Collingwood play.

Fact is all players are on the open market and any one can bid for them. Even Essendon bid on SOS's son FFS!!!

 

[Mr Magic]

"in the long run they are expected to relinquish NSW players from just over the border from towns such as Albury, Wentworth, Deniliquin and Broken Hill."

Broken Hill isn't "just over the border". It is more northern than Newcastle.

this point piqued my interest
"But the prevailing view is that the Murray part of the zone will be phased out in the near future, on the grounds that this area is essentially AFL territory, while the Riverina is a region in which there is some competition with the rugby codes"

While I don't like the AFL habit of constantly changing the rules - especially when influential people campaign for changes, I think there has always been scope to make adjustments to the academy system in order to maintain balance.
The southern areas of the Riverina have always identified more closely with Melbourne than they do with Sydney. Perhaps clubs within the Murray Bushrangers catchment, or clubs playing in Vic country leagues may make a more natural football border.

The only reason they go to Murray leagues is because the footy is too weak further North atm. Its a chicken and egg argument. The leagues North can only get stronger when they get some local assistance from GWS and the Swans!!

Eddie is really attacking local footy in NSW!!

 

[Colonial]

Eddy has shown is hand.

He wants a return to the big Vic 4 leading the way.
The interstate clubs are there for the tv money and sponsorships nothing more.

 

[Dangerousfield]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/vic...l/news-story/2af9815040e02dbd12d221bfefb9a7a2

GWS cherry picking stopped. Reckon Eddie's campaign will bear fruit with the GWS zone along the Murray being trimmed very soon. If GWS keep performing on field the next target will be their extra salary cap which lasts until 2019 season!