Doomsday/Prophecies The Bible - signs of the end

[Monniehawk]

The reason is CF, and it's not directed at you, is at least in my experience no Christian I've ever met has actually read the Bible in detail, and certainly not from start to end. I've had Sunday morning doorknockers with Bible in hand and when I mention some less palatable deeds carried out by God they were in total ignorance of the events - they'd clearly never read the book they are trying to force on others. Don't you think that's a little odd?
If it's true we'll all burn. But I'm prepared to take my chances. Unless you're a lucky Jewish male virgin you're in trouble anyway.

I've met many, but that really isn't the point. It is easy to pull a quote with which you might be familiar and bamboozle some eager and under-prepared evangelist. That is hardly fair or even productive. The bible is bloody BIG! They can't all be Theology professors.
However, it does beg how people come to accept the bible (or any doctrine for that matter) and I would venture to say that no-one reads the bible fully in order to form their first opinion, one way or the other. I doubt if you did. We have those opinions formed for us as hand-offs from others well before we even open a text. Subsequent Bible study either confirms or modifies that basic belief, but rarely does it reverse the initial impression.
That is the province of human nature. We are initially influenced by others and those initial influences become very persistent, colouring any related additional evidence. They can be varied, but it is very unusual for the initial concepts to be completely erased or revoked after they are embedded.
That very phenomenon has a parallel in scientific research where lab testing more often tends to confirm an original premise - maybe because the scientist subconsciously really wants it to.

 

[CharacterFirst]

The reason is CF, and it's not directed at you, is at least in my experience no Christian I've ever met has actually read the Bible in detail, and certainly not from start to end. I've had Sunday morning doorknockers with Bible in hand and when I mention some less palatable deeds carried out by God they were in total ignorance of the events - they'd clearly never read the book they are trying to force on others. Don't you think that's a little odd?

If it's true we'll all burn. But I'm prepared to take my chances. Unless you're a lucky Jewish male virgin you're in trouble anyway.

Yes. that is more than a little odd, i agree.

I have read it all, many times. Some parts many, many times. In many different english translations, and studied key parts in the original languages (those days are long gone now though! )

Clearly I am by no means a genius - there are a number of you on here more intelligent than me, and with far greater knowledge in your fields than i will ever get close to matching. Nor am I an academic with the luxury of being able to specialize in detailed study of a subject. My skills and job make me a generalist. But i do have a couple of theology degrees, so I guess I feel i can claim some expertise when it comes to the bible.

I'd only be guessing at what you mean by the bolded statement PE, and even if its a real question and not a red herring designed to get me to spend time typing something you think no one will ever read. There is plenty of that going on in here i suspect!

I would say the idea that if its true we'll all burn in hell is not a good representation of what the full cannon of scripture says.

Do people understand the gospel? Really understand it?

Do you guys know the word gospel means good news. The good news is God loves us. He has provided a way for us to be in relationship with him, a way that gets rid of our sin, something abhorrent to him. That way is thru his unmerited favour = grace. The grace that is found in the forgiveness offered when we put out faith in JC as the God/man (both man and God) - God become man. God incarnate.

Xianity is a religion unlike all others. It is a faith of grace. As far as i can see, all other philosophies and religions posit our success or salvation or happiness or whatever, on the works of each of us as an individual. i.e. You have to please Allah, or get good karma etc, etc.

Xianity is radically different. It says that God (in and Thru Jesus Christ) has done the work for us. All that is required for salvation is belief in that. That is why it is good news. It is a free gift of grace. Not Cheap Grace, but free grace nonetheless.

The above is also why am not in the slightest bit intimidated by someone who may argue a point or world view that uses logic or science or history or whatever to disprove God. The way the NT explains faith is that it has nothing to do with how clever you are and what you think you can work out etc. In fact, it says it is actually the opposite! The NT says you need to be like a child to connect with God; meaning we can;t get there if we put our faith in our own intellect. We do have to be humble and trust like my littlest kids do with me, not like my preteens who are starting to feel pretty clever!

I hope it was worth posting all that, and that some people might get a less stereotypical view of the Xian faith as a result. Now there is other stuff i must do.

 

[CharacterFirst]

I've met many, but that really isn't the point. It is easy to pull a quote with which you might be familiar and bamboozle some eager and under-prepared evangelist. That is hardly fair or even productive. The bible is bloody BIG! They can't all be Theology professors.
However, it does beg how people come to accept the bible (or any doctrine for that matter) and I would venture to say that no-one reads the bible fully in order to form their first opinion, one way or the other. I doubt if you did. We have those opinions formed for us as hand-offs from others well before we even open a text. Subsequent Bible study either confirms or modifies that basic belief, but rarely does it reverse the initial impression.
That is the province of human nature. We are initially influenced by others and those initial influences become very persistent, colouring any related additional evidence. They can be varied, but it is very unusual for the initial concepts to be completely erased or revoked after they are embedded.
That very phenomenon has a parallel in scientific research where lab testing more often tends to confirm an original premise - maybe because the scientist subconsciously really wants it to.

Pretty much agreed.

 

[Grin]

Hey Grin,

I owe you a sincere apology for my first response to your post. I was thinking about this last night, and your post this morning confirms it for me.

I don't know if you believe in forgiveness (i hope so seeing you quoted scripture at me - bit cheeky eh?), but please accept my admission/confession/concession (choose your favored term ).

I still hold to the truth of what I said, but my manner and unwillingness to accept what you had to say on face value wasn't fair, and I did just dismiss what you posted.

Yours, CF.

That's absolutely fine.

Now I feel a bit guilty.

In any case, I just enjoy these ethics discussions:
Make a case (even if it is stretching things) and see where it takes us.

Even though I am not a christian, or believer in any relegion, I think Jesus was a man for all seasons and his philosophies and sayings etc can be of inspiration, even to athiests.

Cheers Mate

 

[CharacterFirst]

That's absolutely fine.

Now I feel a bit guilty.

In any case, I just enjoy these ethics discussions:
Make a case (even if it is stretching things) and see where it takes us.

Even though I am not a christian, or believer in any relegion, I think Jesus was a man for all seasons and his philosophies and sayings etc can be of inspiration, even to athiests.

Cheers Mate

Back at ya.

It is good to clear the air and re start with a fresh slate.

CF.

 

[Niximus]

Even though I am not a christian, or believer in any relegion, I think Jesus was a man for all seasons and his philosophies and sayings etc can be of inspiration, even to athiests.

What philosophies and sayings would they be in particular?

The only things attributed to Jesus I reckon have any worth generally boil down to just plain common sense, and are generally the most ignored by those that follow him.

FWIW I reckon turning the other cheek, heping those in need and generally not being a twot are pretty good ideas but they are hardly JesusTM originals.

IMO, if you're taking your inspiration from what someone who may or may not have existed may or may not have said, you're scraping the barrel a bit. It's like taking inspiration from Rick Astley just because he says he's Never gonna give you up, Never gonna let you down, Never gonna run around and desert you,Never gonna make you cry,Never gonna say goodbye,Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

 

[Pie eyed]

What if? What if? What if? You tell me what if?

You don't really think like this do you PE? This post does you a disservice PE.

I am constantly amazed at non believers suggesting things about God, quoting scripture at believers etc. Me thinks you doth protest too much PE. What if it isn't what you suggest here, and is true!!!

I think they are all legitimate questions about religious belief.
I know there will be an end. Although I see it happening without a malicious sorting of the living based on whether their parents pushed them into the right belief system and some removal from the solar system to salvation. the end I see is one which has happened many times before. One which is logical to the point of having been actually observed happening.

Understand it is not I who expound any theory which claims there is some way to escape being vaporised into ones basic elements.
Others are making these claims and I'm asking how do you know?
I'd be interested to see why others think they have the right formula, follow the right God or even the right branch of any religion.

I can't see how you can turn this on me.

Regardless of how you feel or what you believe if there is a omnipotent deity in command of your fate and that of mankind, he has a terrible record commuting atrocities against his own creation. The evidence of a "loving God" is scant once you get past the claims he supposedly makes in the bible. Hate filled, insecure and vindictive are far more accurate words to describe any God who is supposedly controlling the fate of the human race.

What makes you think there would be any more accuracy in descriptions of what will happen in end times than what is evident in mortal existence?

 

[Pie eyed]

What philosophies and sayings would they be in particular?

The only things attributed to Jesus I reckon have any worth generally boil down to just plain common sense, and are generally the most ignored by those that follow him.

FWIW I reckon turning the other cheek, heping those in need and generally not being a twot are pretty good ideas but they are hardly JesusTM originals.

IMO, if you're taking your inspiration from what someone who may or may not have existed may or may not have said, you're scraping the barrel a bit. It's like taking inspiration from Rick Astley just because he says he's Never gonna give you up, Never gonna let you down, Never gonna run around and desert you,Never gonna make you cry,Never gonna say goodbye,Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

Blessed are the cheese makers?

 

[Pie eyed]

I've met many, but that really isn't the point. It is easy to pull a quote with which you might be familiar and bamboozle some eager and under-prepared evangelist. That is hardly fair or even productive. The bible is bloody BIG! They can't all be Theology professors.
However, it does beg how people come to accept the bible (or any doctrine for that matter) and I would venture to say that no-one reads the bible fully in order to form their first opinion, one way or the other. I doubt if you did. We have those opinions formed for us as hand-offs from others well before we even open a text. Subsequent Bible study either confirms or modifies that basic belief, but rarely does it reverse the initial impression.
That is the province of human nature. We are initially influenced by others and those initial influences become very persistent, colouring any related additional evidence. They can be varied, but it is very unusual for the initial concepts to be completely erased or revoked after they are embedded.
That very phenomenon has a parallel in scientific research where lab testing more often tends to confirm an original premise - maybe because the scientist subconsciously really wants it to.

This last sentence is patently false. Certainly a scientist can enter into an experiment or a research project witn pre-formed ideas about what he/she hopes or even is endeavouring to find. Incredibly rarely will the same scientist not come to a conclusion which reflects the facts and the evidence though even when it is a complete contradiction of his prior beleifs. Your post shows an ignorance of the scientific method.

Research often, not more often than not as you stated, tends to confirm the original premise because research is usually based on some other tried and tested basic scientific research. Many times though research uncovers results which were completely unexpected.

Shoddy research is very quickly pulled apart by the peer review process.

 

[Monniehawk]

This last sentence is patently false. Certainly a scientist can enter into an experiment or a research project witn pre-formed ideas about what he/she hopes or even is endeavouring to find. Incredibly rarely will the same scientist not come to a conclusion which reflects the facts and the evidence though even when it is a complete contradiction of his prior beleifs. Your post shows an ignorance of the scientific method.

Research often, not more often than not as you stated, tends to confirm the original premise because research is usually based on some other tried and tested basic scientific research. Many times though research uncovers results which were completely unexpected.

Shoddy research is very quickly pulled apart by the peer review process.

Weeeelllll, it isn't 'patently false'. The predetermination of results phenomenon is pretty well understood and has been the subject of work by Tasker and Freyberg, for one example.
As a fact of human nature, it is surely within the scope of probability that scientists are prone to contrive results as any other group. They are subject to the same ego, external pressures and financial influences that can guide research down favoured paths. (I have first hand knowledge of this, myself!) While I understand your staunch defence of scientific research, it is a little unwarranted as my comments were not an attempt to debunk scientific method, but to illustrate a point.
Given that, I acknowledge it is also a rarity, partly because of the peer review and partly because of rigorous training; but I was simply illustrating the phenomenon of predetermination, not attempting to attack science methods!

 

[CharacterFirst]

I think they are all legitimate questions about religious belief.
I know there will be an end. Although I see it happening without a malicious sorting of the living based on whether their parents pushed them into the right belief system and some removal from the solar system to salvation. the end I see is one which has happened many times before. One which is logical to the point of having been actually observed happening.

Understand it is not I who expound any theory which claims there is some way to escape being vaporised into ones basic elements.
Others are making these claims and I'm asking how do you know?
I'd be interested to see why others think they have the right formula, follow the right God or even the right branch of any religion.

I can't see how you can turn this on me.

Regardless of how you feel or what you believe if there is a omnipotent deity in command of your fate and that of mankind, he has a terrible record commuting atrocities against his own creation. The evidence of a "loving God" is scant once you get past the claims he supposedly makes in the bible. Hate filled, insecure and vindictive are far more accurate words to describe any God who is supposedly controlling the fate of the human race.

What makes you think there would be any more accuracy in descriptions of what will happen in end times than what is evident in mortal existence?

I think I have got a bit mixed up in a few posts about who has posted what. Apologies to PE, Partridge, others.

I'm sorry PE if I gave the idea I was trying to put it back on you. That was wrong of me. I guess there is so much ignorant bashing of the Xian faith, it is genuinely difficult to know who is trying to just cause trouble, take people for a ride etc. Xians hope to be growing in love, kindness etc, but we don't like being used as doormats or being dumped on anymore than anyone else does. I am trying to walk the line of being gracious but also firm and strong.

Again I am sorry. I seem to be apologizing alot! Hope it inspires others to when they are wrong, or rude or petty, or whatever.

PE (I think). I don't see "the end" as a time when God will sort us out according to what our parents etc indoctrinated us into. I think the bible teaches that all people are sinful by nature - this is what the idea of original sin is. As a result, we are all alienated from a perfect, holy God who can't accommodate sin b/c it is completely contradictory to his nature. So by definition we are guilty of sin. Its pretty hard to disagree with this if you have lived long enough to agree we are all flawed and fall short of perfection. People may want to explain it other ways or use other terms, and there is a scale - mass murder is worse than a white lie - but in the end it is all short of perfection (perfection of God for Xians).

But God does love his creation, knew sin was in us, saw that the only way to combat it was if he did it himself thru Jesus.

SO...., our forgiveness, our coming back into relationship with our creator - God - only happens b/c of God's grace. It is thru faith, but the faith is not the thing that counts in our favor. If it were, then it would be salvation by works and not by Gods gracious gift (see my post above).

SO...., I think (I am not certain and there is currently a hot debate among Xians on the nuisances of this very issue, although at various times in history it has been a hot topic as well) people without a cognitive faith in Jesus can be saved b/c ultimately salvation is thru God's grace. i.e the mentally handicapped person, or the youth who dies in PNG without ever hearing about JC. etc. These people however, probably I suspect (but am not certain) get the chance to accept or reject jesus; i guess postmortem.

Now people on here don't fall into the above category/s. You are hearing the gospel now, and have a chance to respond.

The next point I want to address is the idea that Xianity teaches that we will all be whisked away out of this solar system to heaven in some spiritual dimension we can't see.

I do believe in heaven as a spiritual home for people and God's home. But the NT sees it as an intermediate place. The NT teaches that (and this is one reason why the bodily resurrection of Jesus is so central to Xian faith) Jesus will return, and he (God/Jesus & HS) will re-create the fallen creation to its original "good" and prefect state. The dead will rise and be judged according to how they have responded to what they heard of Jesus. That is why Xians share their faith. They want people to get the chance to hear about and put their trust in Jesus and not miss out. That's why I'm here on this site really. Trying to give a Xian proclamation of the gospel.

The bible teaches Eternity won't be in space or somewhere else, but on a renewed earth, with God present in a similar sense as he was originally portrayed in Eden.

Certainly there are times when God has used means of punishment, correction, etc that seem pretty tough to us. This is an enormous subject that has been debate/discussed for centuries and it takes me too long to type responses to do it justice, esp. if we need to go over points many times - which is legit. How can i explain it quickly and simply? Ummm????

Hey rabbi, come and do some of this heavy lifting here mate!

In a stark summary - God is God. He can do what he likes. He will stop at nothing to win humanity back to himself. He hates sin - he even punishes it with death in this life, but that is not the end of the story. God does love us and is looking at things from an eternal perspective - with eternal life even for those who die in this life for their sin. In the OT God is working thru a "people nation" (the Jews) - God had covenants with his people Israel, they had/have broken them, and he has used other nations etc to 'wake them up" and draw them back to himself. And yes that did mean collateral damage, although at the basis none are innocent. But its all the more reason to realize that sin and turning away from God is very serious stuff.

Post Jesus the dynamics have changed. God is withholding judgement on our sin, he is no longer relating to humanity thru a chosen people, but thru his own son, and the Kingdom of God is open to all not just the Jewish people. So Xians share the gospel hoping that others will get on board rather than reject Jesus. But he still uses (not causes) pain and suffering to wake us up and turn back to him. C.S.Lewis - the great 20thC writer/academic/atheist turned Xian apologetic wrote "Pain is God's megaphone to a deaf world" I think its a good quote.

Thats it for me for now. This above won't do it justice and probably has all sorts of holes. Try to see the general thrust of what I'm saying Xianity is about.

 

[Pie eyed]

Weeeelllll, it isn't 'patently false'. The predetermination of results phenomenon is pretty well understood and has been the subject of work by Tasker and Freyberg, for one example.
As a fact of human nature, it is surely within the scope of probability that scientists are prone to contrive results as any other group. They are subject to the same ego, external pressures and financial influences that can guide research down favoured paths. (I have first hand knowledge of this, myself!) While I understand your staunch defence of scientific research, it is a little unwarranted as my comments were not an attempt to debunk scientific method, but to illustrate a point.
Given that, I acknowledge it is also a rarity, partly because of the peer review and partly because of rigorous training; but I was simply illustrating the phenomenon of predetermination, not attempting to attack science methods!

You're claiming the results are influenced by the preconceived ideas of the researchers.
Give me a single example where this has been shown to be the case and the person responsible not drummed out of the profession.
You are confusing the individual with the scientific method. The great beauty of which is that it is self correcting. It allows for the influence of preconception and bias and eradicates it.
Your claim is false...period. There is not comparison between religion and science.

 

[Evil Pleb]

OK. Straight from the JW text book?
A couple of points:
It is plain that I don't regard the xtian god as one of fear. I was querying your interpretation. Fear of the apocalypse is a suspect motivation for recruiting believers. You spoke, and continue to speak (as highlighted above), only of the punitive actions of your god. That one-dimensionality worries me.
You do sound as tho you are speaking for god. Maybe you aren't, but you do sound like it.
When I was xtian, I was a monotheist.
My correction of your "with me" statement still stands. Your explanation above only supports that, I think. Still, it is a minor transgression, I admit.

As for the 6000 years thing... well, truly.....

As it's explained in the bible, true Christians don't recruit, it's God that draws (recruits) specific individuals by means of His holy spirit.
I'm offering my stance on the matter for the sake of the thread and further discussion.

I speak of the punitive actions of God because that's what this thread is about - The end times.

 

[Evil Pleb]

Hey Evo,

I don't agree with Evil Pleb (now there's a name for ya!), but the context of this quote of Jesus (there are better translations by the way) doesn't lead one to read it as a gnostic or an eastern religion might. It is certainly not how Jews would have read it/said it. Hearers, original readers, writer and speaker were Jews as well.

The name 'Evil Pleb' comes from a comment I made when playing the PC game Caesar 3. The pleb who was supposed to be carting a barrow of fruit from the farm to the granary did everything but. So I got frustrated and said "damn you evil pleb." It has become an joke between my wife and myself. My wife will remind me and say: Honey, can you please mow the lawn today? I responded: I'll get on it after the cricket. She says: Damn you evil pleb, in a joking way.

 

[Evil Pleb]

Why are you and your God filled with such hatred and such inability to forgive.

It's not hatred where a comment such as "good riddance" comes from. I have already explained my position regarding this.

Look at it from another view point: Why would God forever tolerate disobedient mankind's continued rebelliousness?
God has set an appointed time in which He is to act and set matters straight. God has generously offered mankind a way back from sin by giving His only begotten son as a ransom in behalf of mankind's sins, so those who show faith in the ransom sacrifice may have their sins forgiven. There's little time remaining left before God's generosity toward all mankind, in this regard, expires. You have the choice to act wisely, so as to have your sins forgiven, or, you could role the dice with your own life at stake and take the gamble that what I'm telling you is not reality. You, as well as everyone living has that choice. Forgiveness has conditions though.

 

[Evil Pleb]

That is truly a cause of concern - and I suggest it makes most Xtians squirm as well. I suspect that EP does not see that negativity in his musings, tho.
Remember, also! Evil Pleb is not the sole representative of Xtians ..... or god, in the same way that al Qaida is not the sole voice of Islam, or Zionists of Judaism, etc, ad infinitum...

Negativity is irrelevant. Either what I say is true or it is not. That's what's relevant.

You're correct on one thing though: I'm not the sole representative of God.
I refer to the bible when I want God's viewpoint on a matter.

 

[Evil Pleb]

Jesus also said "He who has seen me, has seen the Father"

With Jesus living in the heavens with God for possibly eons before anything else was created, Jesus became exactly like his Father, personality wise. Jesus had nothing else to influence him or imitate. Jesus was taught and moulded by his Father.

So, when it's said that "He who has seen me, has also seen the Father" it means that Jesus did /does /says just as God would've done.

 

[CharacterFirst]

With Jesus living in the heavens with God for possibly eons before anything else was created, Jesus became exactly like his Father, personality wise. Jesus had nothing else to influence him or imitate. Jesus was taught and moulded by his Father.

So, when it's said that "He who has seen me, has also seen the Father" it means that Jesus did /does /says just as God would've done.

I disagree strongly here. The classic Xian position is that Jesus is God, not just become like him. He is a co-eternal, equal member of the one Truine God. Begotten, not made. As the Nicene Creed says.....

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

What you say does sound like JW stuff. Are you a JW, or are you Xian - one who is a follower of Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God?

 

[CharacterFirst]

It's not hatred where a comment such as "good riddance" comes from. I have already explained my position regarding this.

Look at it from another view point: Why would God forever tolerate disobedient mankind's continued rebelliousness?
God has set an appointed time in which He is to act and set matters straight. God has generously offered mankind a way back from sin by giving His only begotten son as a ransom in behalf of mankind's sins, so those who show faith in the ransom sacrifice may have their sins forgiven. There's little time remaining left before God's generosity toward all mankind, in this regard, expires. You have the choice to act wisely, so as to have your sins forgiven, or, you could role the dice with your own life at stake and take the gamble that what I'm telling you is not reality. You, as well as everyone living has that choice. Forgiveness has conditions though.

What do you consider are the conditions for forgiveness.

I would say forgiveness is God's free gift of grace in JC. Youare saved by grace thru faith in JC. I see no conditions for forgiveness other than accepting God's grace.

What do you think?

 

[Monniehawk]

You're claiming the results are influenced by the preconceived ideas of the researchers.
Give me a single example where this has been shown to be the case and the person responsible not drummed out of the profession.
You are confusing the individual with the scientific method. The great beauty of which is that it is self correcting. It allows for the influence of preconception and bias and eradicates it.
Your claim is false...period. There is not comparison between religion and science.

OK.
I feel the need to defend myself and correct a few things, because I think you have subjected my comments to some unfair extremes.
I certainly am claiming that it occurs - albeit very rarely! But it still occurs! Scientific research is sometimes influenced by preconceptions, bias and external pressures. Surely that is undeniable! It is not a slight on scientific process at all, rather on the individuals who corrupt it. The process is inanimate and therefore benign, it is the way it can be circumvented - in spite of the integrity of the checks and balances. That is central to my point.
Further, if there was no concern about the fidelity of research, it wouldn't have checks in the first place.
There are many examples of this happening. You know of some. Thalidomide scandal, petrol lead additives, medical research and claims about carbon emissions, are but a few.
You added the additional rider about the perpetrators being "drummed out". That virtually acknowledges that it occurs, but you seem to imply that if the perpetrators are dealt with, then it didn't happen? Science history is littered with such exposures and , to the great credit of the process, generally the rogues have been detected and dealt with. Then there are those who are not detected, one would logically presume.
The link I drew between science and religion is in terms that both are disciplines not immune to human foibles. I would have hoped it was taken in that context.
I neither stated or implied any other parallels, particularly in methodology.

 

[Evil Pleb]

I disagree strongly here. The classic Xian position is that Jesus is God, not just become like him. He is a co-eternal, equal member of the one Truine God. Begotten, not made. As the Nicene Creed says.....

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

What you say does sound like JW stuff. Are you a JW, or are you Xian - one who is a follower of Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God?

Classic Christian position? If Jesus is passed off as God in classical Christian belief, then classical Christianity, as you call it, has deviated into apostasy and is not Christian at all. (The bible did say that apostasy would come in, especially after Jesus and the apostles died, yet this classical Christianity was the first on the scene at the time when the apostasy was said to be established) My bible based belief is that the trinity doctrine is false and unbiblical.
The trinity doctrine dishonours God by placing Jesus and the holy spirit as God's equal.

The creed is man made, not biblical. Since it's unbiblical, it's not from God. Who're you to say what is Christian and what is not, especially when you adhere to a creed that's unbiblical. To be a Christian, one must adhere to what the bible says, not made up creeds and the following of traditions of men that have no basis in God's word.

 

[Grin]

It's not hatred where a comment such as "good riddance" comes from. I have already explained my position regarding this.

Look at it from another view point: Why would God forever tolerate disobedient mankind's continued rebelliousness?
God has set an appointed time in which He is to act and set matters straight. God has generously offered mankind a way back from sin by giving His only begotten son as a ransom in behalf of mankind's sins, so those who show faith in the ransom sacrifice may have their sins forgiven. There's little time remaining left before God's generosity toward all mankind, in this regard, expires. You have the choice to act wisely, so as to have your sins forgiven, or, you could role the dice with your own life at stake and take the gamble that what I'm telling you is not reality. You, as well as everyone living has that choice. Forgiveness has conditions though.

So how are we to know which god to believe in when none of them provide any proof of their existence except for iron aged oral traditions that weren't recorded in writing until centuries after their initial telling?

Why would a God condemn his "children" for not believing in him when he has provided no evidence of his existence?

If one of my children rejected me I'd be disappointed but I wouldn't condemn to eternal damnation.

Perhaps I've just got a much bigger heart than your vindictive little God who is so insecure he needs his ego stroked on a daily basis by all or he will reek horrible, psychopathic, eternal revenge.

Tell your God about me so that he can be inspired by my love and forgiveness, which clearly dwarfs his.

 

[Evil Pleb]

What do you consider are the conditions for forgiveness.

I would say forgiveness is God's free gift of grace in JC. Youare saved by grace thru faith in JC. I see no conditions for forgiveness other than accepting God's grace.

What do you think?

Forgiveness is God's gift, but God has discretion as to who receives it. One can not continue in persistent sin and expect that God will forgive them just because that's what God supposedly does. More is required if one wants to attain forgiveness.
Repentance - ceasing to deliberately sin.
Not just saying that one believes in God and saying that they're saved because they're already in God's graces, but actively doing God's will.
God will forgive these ones.

 

[Evil Pleb]

So how are we to know which god to believe in when none of them provide any proof of their existence except for iron aged oral traditions that weren't recorded in writing until centuries after their initial telling?

Why would a God condemn his "children" for not believing in him when he has provided no evidence of his existence?

If one of my children rejected me I'd be disappointed but I wouldn't condemn to eternal damnation.

Perhaps I've just got a much bigger heart than your vindictive little God who is so insecure he needs his ego stroked on a daily basis by all or he will reek horrible, psychopathic, eternal revenge.

Tell your God about me so that he can be inspired by my love and forgiveness, which clearly dwarfs his.

If you believe that all biblical history was recorded in hindsight, you don't need me to point you in the right direction, as you're not going to believe anyway, so why worry yourself in that case.

God has given mankind the bible. If you choose not to believe that, that's not God's fault, nor will it be a legitimate excuse when God rids the world of the disobedient.

God's issue is bigger than your own. If even one unrighteous one was to remain after the rest of the unrighteous were destroyed, that one unrighteous person could spread that unrighteousness and start all over again what God had just enacted to get rid of it. So, your child rejecting you isn't even on the same scale as your comparison with God.
Btw, eternal damnation is unbiblical. The punishment is death.

If you had such a big heart, then why are you not everyday thanking your creator for the life He has given you and everything in your life which he has given to you, so that your life is more enjoyable. (Despite you buying items, everything belongs to God because it's He that created the matter that humans use) Instead you childishly call Him names, mock Him and denounce Him. What a big heart you have.

I don't need to say anything about you, He already knows you better than yourself. If you have a grudge with God, take it up with Him yourself, and don't get others to do your dirty work.

 

[Pie eyed]

OK.
I feel the need to defend myself and correct a few things, because I think you have subjected my comments to some unfair extremes.
I certainly am claiming that it occurs - albeit very rarely! But it still occurs! Scientific research is sometimes influenced by preconceptions, bias and external pressures. Surely that is undeniable! It is not a slight on scientific process at all, rather on the individuals who corrupt it. The process is inanimate and therefore benign, it is the way it can be circumvented - in spite of the integrity of the checks and balances. That is central to my point.
Further, if there was no concern about the fidelity of research, it wouldn't have checks in the first place.
There are many examples of this happening. You know of some. Thalidomide scandal, petrol lead additives, medical research and claims about carbon emissions, are but a few.
You added the additional rider about the perpetrators being "drummed out". That virtually acknowledges that it occurs, but you seem to imply that if the perpetrators are dealt with, then it didn't happen? Science history is littered with such exposures and , to the great credit of the process, generally the rogues have been detected and dealt with. Then there are those who are not detected, one would logically presume.
The link I drew between science and religion is in terms that both are disciplines not immune to human foibles. I would have hoped it was taken in that context.
I neither stated or implied any other parallels, particularly in methodology.

Your original post did not say "sometimes" it insinuated that more often than not scientific research had a finding corrupted by the researchers subconscious desire for a particular result which is patently false.

Research rarely presupposes a result. More often than not research is looking for a clue to the cause of a known result.
Thalidomide was the act of a greedy corporation and is still being sold today in third world countries with little controls. After the tragedy of the 60's they were flogging it of as a dietary supplement in India. You cannot possibly even suggest that the researchers foresaw the problem and hid the results? The problems Thalidomide caused in pregnant women were discovered after the drugs use. You could argue there was not enough research. I never even hinted that mistakes are never made in research.
Religion is not a discipline.
There are frauds in every aspect of life.
Fraud is not a subconscious act.
No human endeavour is immune to human foibles.
Science makes specific allowance for this and the scientific method has mechanisms to detect, combat and correct this.
Religion does not. Far from it.