Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[Stamos]

There was a bad period towards end of Q2 where they got two goals and half the 3rd where we got some bad umpire calls ( Cripps/Levi and Murphy calls were all pathetic) also against the run of play and they got 2-3 fluky goals - I can understand that it would have been a bad look at the ground. However on TV in the second look and more forensic looks - it boiled down to Georgiades and Gray. They were kicking them from everywhere and we were kicking nothing.

Anyway, I guess I am coming across like an apologist for Teague - which trust me I am not.

I just see things differently and in determining what really went wrong - we are hopeless in front of goals and can't afford to be - and we didn't have the defensive personnel able to handle their talls and Gray. That is what the Port loss boiled down to. Not an unexpected outcome either.

Teague and co have developed a game plan around fast ball movement to forward half and defensive pressure from there.

I judge Teague from the perspective of who he plays in order to make that game plan work and where does he play them.

Right now we have low forward 50 pressure and our ball movement from kick-ins was a joke.

We've lost the speed on display in the first two games and replaced it with a slower version of a predictable game. How much of this is available players and how much is the wrong players playing in wrong positions - I dont know.

The issues at the ground seemed much more to be that we weren't at all switched on from the start, and the way Port were so easily able to transition the ball with uncontested possessions (gameplan) compared with how difficult it was for us (gameplan as well).

The shocking skill and decision errors certainly didn't help, but they weren't the main problem. And sure, Port kicked well, but they were able to score easy goals. We just didn't put them under pressure.

 

[JustaBattler]

The issues at the ground seemed much more to be that we weren't at all switched on from the start, and the way Port were so easily able to transition the ball with uncontested possessions (gameplan) compared with how difficult it was for us (gameplan as well).

The shocking skill and decision errors certainly didn't help, but they weren't the main problem. And sure, Port kicked well, but they were able to score easy goals. We just didn't put them under pressure.

I think Gibbons is a very poor defensive forward when combined with Murph and Eddie all our smaller players were mostly ineffective in locking the ball in. Port did well to make sure they didnt play through Fogarty or McGovern - both of whome were pretty steady beleive it or not in teh defensive side of things. Levi is too slow and Harry was memserised by Alir taking frnt position. It was a forward 50 fail against Port - big time.

On pressure - the team put the most pressure on itself by missing easy set shots and took the pressure off Port - of that I am 100% convinced.
I also think the Kennedy experiment on a wing/hff was a fail - he doesn't have the run to play defensive wing/hff nor the run to be the fast break on baller - I put him in the same class as Setterfield as far as that goes - which is disappointing - so lets move on.

On the other side of play we had Newnes whose defensive efforts were not his best at times - but the damage was done through the corridor - they stacked the middle with talls for a lot of their kick-ins making the game easy and playing to their strengths - meanwhile we delivered turnovers via trying to thread the needle shots over and over again following slow exits from kick ins - we lacked handball run.

I think the glaring weakness is not in getting ball in contests- it is what happens after - we break down in the first or second kick following a contested clearance- pretty mcuh every time.

Don know how to fix these skill errors given out outs atm - except to maybe stop trying to thread the needle and keep teh ball more contested for longer - but few teams can play the way port did and have

Lycett/Marshall/Dixon/Broad and Wines - all set up for a kick in to teh same spot pretty mcuh every time and restart from center square with Gray and Jones running burst through on the side for a give. We idnt have the numbes to copete against so many big tall bodies - and that was a fantasticstraetgy they employ a lot - Jones /Levi were very ordianry stopping interceptors over and over again inthose situations - neither could get off the ground much in congestion.

 

[thylacine60]

I didn't like it either. And as much as the plow laughin biz kills the soul, I'll take it over some of the consistent on field rat acts / sook meltdowns by some of the opposition "superstars" on a near weekly basis that never warrant as much scrutiny mid/post game. Ones that overstep the vaunted 'mongrel' aspect some fans desire, ones that would upset me more than I could imagine comparatively. There are certain players for other big clubs whose actions would get me close to actively disliking them if they played for Carlton, though I can't seem to pick any like em from our club. A good thing? Perhaps too one-eyed, but bloody hell didn't get the chance to choose the club i support!

It's both a feeling of powerlessness and undying hope following a mob you've had designated to ya.

 

[Stamos]

I think the glaring weakness is not in getting ball in contests- it is what happens after - we break down in the first or second kick following a contested clearance- pretty mcuh every time.

Don know how to fix these skill errors given out outs atm - except to maybe stop trying to thread the needle and keep teh ball more contested for longer - but few teams can play the way port did and have

Agree with everything.
As to the quoted part, this is why I think so much of our problem is to do with the coaching/structure/gameplan. We don't position ourselves, or move to, the right spots so that we can make the right option.
We so often give it to a player under pressure, which makes the next disposal more difficult, and then the next player in the chain is also under pressure, and so on. We don't get enough easy ball, nor easy goals.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Sad that it generally takes a week of media beat up to get 80% of the list to pull their finger out. Expect us to put up a really good showing this week, media silence and we'll be flat the following week and dish up the same same.

I've mentioned earlier, win/lose/draw I just want to see a 6 week block where for 6 straight games we apply the kind of pressure/attitude we saw for about 3 quarters against Freo. 1 acceptable committed application every 4 games is not enough, and would much rather Teague stop pandering to them and see 50% of them ask for trade or be dropped if they can't handle the reality of what is required in their chosen profession.

Interesting comment, we have not won 4 in a row since 2011? Apart from maybe GCS, I would say every other club has been able to achieve this. Most teams will find form and deliver for 4-6 weeks of good form no matter where they are on the ladder. We haven't been able to achieve this. We are so far away from the team that produce 3 qtrs of football against Geelong last season.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

They may well tear it up at another club. If that happened it would be because they are more suited to their new team. It doesn’t make any sense to keep them at Carlton because (a) of their high draft number, and (b) a concern that they may play better at another club.
If they are consistently underperforming at Carlton then no useful purpose is served by keeping them here.
As for the Club getting a poor return from a trade why, for example, couldn’t Dow and Cerra be swapped in a deal btw Freo and Carlton?

Why the hell would Freo trade a player they're willing to offer $3Mill / 4 years for a guy who's struggling to make an impact?

And no, throwing LOB in as steak knives isn't going to convince them either...

 

[JustaBattler]

Agree with everything.
As to the quoted part, this is why I think so much of our problem is to do with the coaching/structure/gameplan. We don't position ourselves, or move to, the right spots so that we can make the right option.
We so often give it to a player under pressure, which makes the next disposal more difficult, and then the next player in the chain is also under pressure, and so on. We don't get enough easy ball, nor easy goals.

I don't like the idea of changing Teague as coach - not one iota and this because in a developing team the most important thing is continuity and continuity starts with the coach. the players backed Teague and Teague has backed his players. The players are letting hi down ( at the margin). It is time for some changes I think.

Teague hasn't had a very good with injuries and player availability- this has no doubt impacted on the ability of the team to read each other and play to a consistent pattern.

How much the patterns are wrong is an open question and that is a call on overall coaching and game plan.

The most disappointing aspect of last weeks game (for me) was the failure in defensive structures - I don't know who the boss is in defense anymore- but I suspect Weitering is and he was of fthe ground for a crucial part of the game when they got away from us. They got 3 cheapies against us because of lack of structure in our defensive 50 and tha is on Docherty - and I'm not referencing his dropped chest marks either when I say it.

 

[Stamos]

I don't like the idea of changing Teague as coach - not one iota and this because in a developing team the most important thing is continuity and continuity starts with the coach. the players backed Teague and Teague has backed his players. The players are letting hi down ( at the margin). It is time for some changes I think.

Agree. But there needs to be change, assistant coaches would be the obvious. And I think it needs to be ASAP, after blowing 18, the first half of 19 and then covid 20, can't afford to waste another 17 rounds.
Whether that's just bringing in someone new, or also sacking some who are there, we need to make a change.

 

[Sector 7G]

Agree with everything.
As to the quoted part, this is why I think so much of our problem is to do with the coaching/structure/gameplan. We don't position ourselves, or move to, the right spots so that we can make the right option.
We so often give it to a player under pressure, which makes the next disposal more difficult, and then the next player in the chain is also under pressure, and so on. We don't get enough easy ball, nor easy goals.

We need to change the angles (something Tigers do exceptionally well) zig zagging the ball down the field moving the ball with numbers rather than forward handballs to stationary targets with ever increasing pressure. It is the kind of thing they start coaching in u11s. Helps if you have leg speed in the side as well so you aren't under as much pressure.

 

[Gethelred]

Agree with everything.
As to the quoted part, this is why I think so much of our problem is to do with the coaching/structure/gameplan. We don't position ourselves, or move to, the right spots so that we can make the right option.
We so often give it to a player under pressure, which makes the next disposal more difficult, and then the next player in the chain is also under pressure, and so on. We don't get enough easy ball, nor easy goals.

I think it comes down to what our coaches allow to be the determining factor when it comes to being the next link in the chain. It's not positioning, because if it was they'd teach it to LOB and Dow; it's not who is the most desireable option with ball in hand to go the next disposal, otherwise it wouldn't be Ed or Cripps. We allow effort to be the determining factor, which is why the ball inevitably ends up in Walsh, Ed or Cripps hands before kicking inside 50.

And I think this is absolutely ****ing stupid. If you look at Port, they use Boak as part of transition but not Wines, because Wines is suspect by foot; they exit a stoppage in the direction of either wing by hand and seek to give to Houston, Amon, Butters, Duursma, the players they want to kick inside forward 50. It's not effort based, but positioning based on a plan.

Which comes back, as you say, to the coaching.

 

[JustaBattler]

Our better distributors and runners are all out injured and Teague's first responsibility was to win games so he was reluctant to actually play younger players in correct postions.

However I don't have a problem with coaching or game plan as much as positional selections- Teague says play players to their strengths- and then puts players into losing roles.

eg Playing Setterfield or even Kennedy on a wing is a joke.

If Newman was fit- SPS could be moved forward ( but what is wrong with Stocker) - I don't get the SPS as a defender thinking. If Williams isn't a natural defender- he sure looks better in space downfield- why not a wing spot for him as was indicated in pre-season?

Then we have the Murphy to 300 meme going on...

I scratch my head re integrity of process at Carlton regarding team selections.

 

[Bluechip66]

Put your hindsight glasses on.

I'm going to give you pick 5 (Setters) & pick 6 (SPS) for the 2016 draft and I'm going to give you pick 3 (Dow) and pick 10 (LOB) for the 2017 draft.

Which 4 players do you pick knowing what you know now?

Well 2017 is pretty easy really... Oscar Allen (21), Tim Kelly (24), Noah balta (25),Liam Ryan (26),b fritsch (31), j petrucelle (38)
2016 want that great, Tim English about the only other I would really take hopefully tdk takes that into account.

 

[katmanblue]

Says more about development than recruiting. Remember Rance’s comments about Lynch and the bizarre things he would find he was doing ?

No. Please enlighten me.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Well 2017 is pretty easy really... Oscar Allen (21), Tim Kelly (24), Noah balta (25),Liam Ryan (26),b fritsch (31), j petrucelle (38)
2016 want that great, Tim English about the only other I would really take hopefully tdk takes that into account.

Oh really? The fact that the first player you mentioned was taken at pick #21 says it all...

 

[Osc1]

No. Please enlighten me.

His forward craft. Running patterns. Positioning. More to do with development than anything else. I couldn’t locate the video clip; it’s been a few years.

 

[Stamos]

Unfortunately he's not available until next year as he was contracted to Richmond for this season.

Well I would hope we're stitching him up for next year then.
We need to make some changes.

 

[katmanblue]

I'm still getting over the Collingwood game mate - that was a bad signal for me. However my comments regarding the Port game - I stand by. We were in the game despite all the 'stuff' people are pointing fingers at. I never thought we were more than an outside chance of winning it tbh - and said so before the game. Just like I think we are only an outside chance of beating Brisbane- too many outs for us to be 50/50 in a whole bunch of games till the bye really. We lacked forward pressure - which is what the game plan is about- and we missed too many easy shots.



No doubt the pressure is on Teague and co - bt using the Port game as the trigger to fire any bullets is a bit silly in my books.

There are concerns regarding the team mainly injury clouds the issues - but we have been exposed for lack of depth in KPP. This affects different games in different ways. Against Port Jones allowed Georgiades to get off the hook - cost the game.

It is all about expectations - I think mine were lower than most posting on here.

In particular - I think Teague plays favourites and contorts team selection around playing his favourites - which means a few players are always not able to play to their strengths. However in Teague's defense- he lacks a fair bit of choice in team selection due to key injuries to players. If we cant recognise the cumulative effect of starting players out like: TDK|SOJ|Martin|Fisher - then we are kidding ourselves. Parks would have been very handy against Port - where we played a tall defender down against a team stacked with them.

It is a tough run to start even if we didnt have all the outs : Richmond/Collingwood in first two rounds whee they are fresh and full strength and we arent - then Port followed by Brisbane - that is 3 genuine contenders - right there - the only 50/50 game we have lost is Collingwood - that was a coaching loss in my books - it happens.

I doubt any supporter who was at the G thought we were in the game.
Might have come across differently on TV, but I think there's a fairly consistent reaction from those of us who were there.

JAB, I've gotta agree with Stamos here.

You could see Port player running straight past our guys time and again.

It was the overlap running by Port which broke the game open. We simply couldn't or wouldn't go with them.

Sometimes it looked like fitness other times it looked like rigid positioning in the zone. Players like Motlop or Byrne-Jones would run by one guy who would turn and point to someone further along but wouldn't go with him. Invariably, they wouldn't be picked up. Becoming the extra number or moving into space to receive the ball in space.

It wasnt just the young guys but senior players doing it too.

No one has mentioned Cripps grabbing Motlop to give away a 50 leading directly to a goal. That was a function of Cripps knowing he couldn't go with Motlop and also knowing no one else would pick him up. If Cripps had confidence in his teammates, he'd have handed off. He doesn't, so he didn't.

Lots of small breakdowns coupled with them kicking goals and us missing meant we were never in it.

Even when we seemed to be dominating, there was the sense that Port had another gear or two if they needed it.

Was very frustrating.

 

[skadoosh]

Unfortunately he's not available until next year as he was contracted to Richmond for this season.

Great news that he'll be with us from 1 Jan 2022. Appreciate the info!

 

[Sector 7G]

JAB, I've gotta agree with Stamos here.

You could see Port player running straight past our guys time and again.

It was the overlap running by Port which broke the game open. We simply couldn't or wouldn't go with them.

Sometimes it looked like fitness other times it looked like rigid positioning in the zone. Players like Motlop or Byrne-Jones would run by one guy who would turn and point to someone further along but wouldn't go with him. Invariably, they wouldn't be picked up. Becoming the extra number or moving into space to receive the ball in space.

It wasnt just the young guys but senior players doing it too.

No one has mentioned Cripps grabbing Motlop to give away a 50 leading directly to a goal. That was a function of Cripps knowing he couldn't go with Motlop and also knowing no one else would pick him up. If Cripps had confidence in his teammates, he'd have handed off. He doesn't, so he didn't.

Lots of small breakdowns coupled with them kicking goals and us missing meant we were never in it.

Even when we seemed to be dominating, there was the sense that Port had another gear or two if they needed it.

Was very frustrating.

In our losses we ran further than our opponents but had less sprint efforts. We just lack quick players. Look at the small forwards

Carl Betts, Murph, Gibbons, Fog
Port Motlop, Rozzee, Orazia, Gray

Which one is going to apply pressure?

 

[katmanblue]

His forward craft. Running patterns. Positioning. More to do with development than anything else. I couldn’t locate the video clip; it’s been a few years.

Cheers.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Unfortunately he's not available until next year as he was contracted to Richmond for this season.

He was partly responsible for the improvement in Richmond's forward line. Would be a good get

 

[Own The Future]

Unfortunately he's not available until next year as he was contracted to Richmond for this season.

Would be an amazing get as senior assistant. Premiership credentials as player and assistant.
The exact type of pedigree we lack in the coaches box.
I compared our coaching staff to Sydney’s the other day.
Sydney have:
- Premiership player and coach as HC.
- Premiership player and GF coach as senior assistant.
- Premiership players in McVeigh & Cox as assistants.
Night and day compared to the playing and/or coaching history of our crew.

 

[katmanblue]

In our losses we ran further than our opponents but had less sprint efforts. We just lack quick players. Look at the small forwards

Carl Betts, Murph, Gibbons, Fog
Port Motlop, Rozzee, Orazia, Gray

Which one is going to apply pressure?

That's my point.

Even when Kennedy tries to go with Byrne-Jones he'd still end up 10m behind him. Putting in effort, ineffectual. The next guy in line then has to decide cover Byrne-Jones and leave man or stay on his own man. If he leaves his man, Byrne-Jones just hanballs it to the man he's meant to be covering. Who is now in space and can dispose with no pressure.

It's why they had many more marks than us. Many more uncontested possessions.

 

[JustaBattler]

JAB, I've gotta agree with Stamos here.

You could see Port player running straight past our guys time and again.

It was the overlap running by Port which broke the game open. We simply couldn't or wouldn't go with them.

Sometimes it looked like fitness other times it looked like rigid positioning in the zone. Players like Motlop or Byrne-Jones would run by one guy who would turn and point to someone further along but wouldn't go with him. Invariably, they wouldn't be picked up. Becoming the extra number or moving into space to receive the ball in space.

It wasnt just the young guys but senior players doing it too.

No one has mentioned Cripps grabbing Motlop to give away a 50 leading directly to a goal. That was a function of Cripps knowing he couldn't go with Motlop and also knowing no one else would pick him up. If Cripps had confidence in his teammates, he'd have handed off. He doesn't, so he didn't.

Lots of small breakdowns coupled with them kicking goals and us missing meant we were never in it.

Even when we seemed to be dominating, there was the sense that Port had another gear or two if they needed it.

Was very frustrating.

I guess that goes to the selection policy of Teague and co...we have emerging strong evidence of one way running from Gibbons, inability to get up to goal square very often from Eddie, and no length of field run from Murph- these are the pplayers that have to run with teh extra Port are using to create overlap surely?


yes, the overlap running was obvious even on TV - what does that say about HFF not staying with their man - how many times did Jones (their HBF) end up being the playmaking last kick into 50 option for them? Why did they seem to have more numbers in our defensive 50 than we had defenders? I noted the amount of times a player pretend chase and then give off by finger-pointing happened - and the culprits were the same blokes over and over again - starting in our forward fifty - the so-called smalls and pretend HFF /ings couldn't keep up...

but Port was smart here- they didn't ask all their defensive players to do the link-up thing - they chose who to match up to who and let the better run burn us off. It wasn't just Cripps btw - Ed did the same thing trying to 'block' Broad..two goals....

So where was Newnes/Cottrell's run - we know Kennedy can't do it - no matter how much he tried....

We failed to stop their exits by run and when we were set up - they did the kick it to their tall/strong battalion waiting all set up to teh right of the center square..

In our losses we ran further than our opponents but had less sprint efforts. We just lack quick players. Look at the small forwards

Carl Betts, Murph, Gibbons, Fog
Port Motlop, Rozzee, Orazia, Gray

Which one is going to apply pressure?

Agreed on lack of leg speed in our small- but alsolack of engine...


Good news? : Reminds me of reading a comment on Honey's game last week in reserves - 30 repeat sprints-and the coach said he had never seen anything like it from any other player anywhere...

Teague has options - just has to be brave enough to start exploring them one by one.

 

[katmanblue]

Would be an amazing get as senior assistant. Premiership credentials as player and assistant.
The exact type of pedigree we lack in the coaches box.
I compared our coaching staff to Sydney’s the other day.
Sydney have:
- Premiership player and coach as HC.
- Premiership player and GF coach as senior assistant.
- Premiership players in McVeigh & Cox as assistants.
Night and day compared to the playing and/or coaching history of our crew.

How do they fit all of them in the softcap?