Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[Arr0w]

I don't think anyone is painting the picture that we're a wooden spoon side.

The frustration is due to the fact that the rebuild has started 5 years ago, we are into the 6th and we still have the same glaring issues as we did a couple of years ago.

The biggest problem is we've lost 3 games to finals sides from last year. The club has built this season up, we've acquired highly rated players in Saad and Williams and finals this year was the expectation. We can't make the finals if we keep losing to finals teams from last year. And it's the way we're losing, we were nowhere near it against Port and Collingwood. The scoreboard flattered us in both games.

Are we only allowed to be concerned if we lose to teams that weren't in the finals last year? Then what happens if we lose to Sydney and/or Melbourne? they weren't finals teams last year - the excuse will change to they're finals teams this year...

Every team has significant injuries, you just feel the pain more for us because you support Carlton. If you were a supporter of another mob, you'd feel their pain more with their injuries. Charlie is obviously a big out - but he's been out for nearly 2 years now... TDK he's only in his 4th season, Marchbank has been out for the better part of 3 years (including this one), Martin and Fisher were both in the side against Collingwood and made no difference to the overall performance anyway.

People are tired of the excuses.

There's no excuse guys like Murphy, Betts, Casboult and Ed Curnow should be gifted games.
There's no excuse the captain should be trying to make miracles happen and take everyone on or bomb the ball forward when he should be giving it off to the better users of the football other than ONE - he's trying to impress... wonder why ...
There's no excuse our other captain should be kicking OOF or dropping chest marks in the back line when under pressure, it's his role to lead and you can't do that if you're not composed under pressure...
There's no excuse that a guy on about 800k who demanded to play as a mid turns up unfit and doesn't impress in any game so far
There's no excuse that another guy on a huge contract has to be moved out of his primary position up forward and replaced with Williamson because he can't impact a game.

The old brigade turn up and try but they are not up to it against the tougher teams in particular. In other words, we are not beating any quality opposition with them in the side and if we do, it'll be an anomaly.
One captain is being selfish and the other is lacking confidence.
Two prized recruits haven't given their all to be ready to warrant their contract demands.

Then there's the coaching issues which I've outlined in the coaching threads...

It doesn't mean we're a bottom 4 side - what it does mean is that there are very worrying signs relating to the success of this rebuild and they are all justified.

Again, there are a fair bit of worst case scenario ifs and buts there

When we played the pies, they did have one single best 22 out, Port only missing 2, Tigers, Cotchin only, but that's the luck of the draw.

My concerns are around aspects of the gameplan which I have shared countless times, players being played out of position and underperforming aging players.

This is predominantly up Teague now, but the small tweaks will have huge benefits

From rebuilds, Saints missed finals in their 6th year ( had large number of injuries), Lions made finals first time. So our progress is there outs

 

[Own The Future]

How do they fit all of them in the softcap?

Excellent question - hadn’t even thought of that.
Maybe a COLA style exception.
But regardless of the cap, look at the wisdom and experience that group would bring compared to ours.
Now being a champion player clearly doesn’t automatically mean someone can impart their knowledge and motivate their charges, but there would be a level of respect based on their playing resume.

 

[Stamos]

How do they fit all of them in the softcap?

They went for quality over quantity. They only have 6 coaches, including Laidler who coaches the 2s.

 

[DangerousD]

Unfortunately he's not available until next year as he was contracted to Richmond for this season.

Is he still contracted to the Tigs? He quit last year, he’s obviously not being paid by them, Sam Mitchell left WC and went to Hawthorn, despite being under contract, I wouldn’t think Richmond would have an issue with a guy who doesn’t work there, taking up a new job.

My biggest concern is, why did he walk away?

 

[JustaBattler]

How do they fit all of them in the softcap?

That's three staff - apart from Horse all ex-Sydney players - not a bad way to keep a culture and systems humming.

what is your problem anyway - we've got Stanton as midfield 'transition' coach ( famous one way runner pedigree from Essendone) and Barker as a midfield 'clearance' coach Barker has Cripps as #1 ball extractor to deliver his great clearance numbers so he passes any test of delivering KPI's ( clever huh) and Stanton is the fall guy for when what happens next is a turnover to the opposition and no player has been taught to stay with their man because running back to defend isnt the Stanton way.

IOW - a rabble structure invented by idjots.

What's next 2 interchange coaches one to teach blokes how to run into bench and the other how to run onto field?

 

[slashin_velvet]

They went for quality over quantity. They only have 6 coaches, including Laidler who coaches the 2s.

Liking what you're putting down recently Stamos.

 

[The Bighouse]

Is he still contracted to the Tigs? He quit last year, he’s obviously not being paid by them, Sam Mitchell left WC and went to Hawthorn, despite being under contract, I wouldn’t think Richmond would have an issue with a guy who doesn’t work there, taking up a new job.

My biggest concern is, why did he walk away?

Might have been the slashed coin to be made for the output. Hubs may have been a factor too.
Getting some media airtime but he’s dabbling in property development as well. Weighing up the options between the two over this year.

 

[Bluechip66]

Oh really? The fact that the first player you mentioned was taken at pick #21 says it all...

U said in hindsight, that’s all.
21 is after 3 & 10.
also FYI , Brad Johnson stated that after working with some of these kids in that draft year, he would have taken Allen in the top 2.

 

[Stamos]

U said in hindsight, that’s all.
21 is after 3 & 10.

Kelly was always a massive flight risk, and walked out as soon as he could. Despite his talent, nobody is blowing pick 3 on that.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Again, there are a fair bit of worst case scenario ifs and buts there

When we played the pies, they did have one single best 22 out, Port only missing 2, Tigers, Cotchin only, but that's the luck of the draw.

My concerns are around aspects of the gameplan which I have shared countless times, players being played out of position and underperforming aging players.

This is predominantly up Teague now, but the small tweaks will have huge benefits

From rebuilds, Saints missed finals in their 6th year ( had large number of injuries), Lions made finals first time. So our progress is there outs

Come on, there's two worst case ifs and no worst case buts in that whole post. If you're going to quote it at least be accurate in your analysis.

I know what your concerns are, but at least try to understand that they run deeper for others.

When comparing rebuilds it's apples and oranges. Different clubs, players, coaches, strategies etc...

The fact that the Saints missed finals in their 6th year and the Lions finished 2nd highlights that.

Let's just focus on our rebuild and determine if we're confident in our coaching staff, playing group, development, leadership and culture...

 

[Arr0w]

Come on, there's two worst case ifs and no worst case buts in that whole post. If you're going to quote it at least be accurate in your analysis.

I know what your concerns are, but at least try to understand that they run deeper for others.

When comparing rebuilds it's apples and oranges. Different clubs, players, coaches, strategies etc...

The fact that the Saints missed finals in their 6th year and the Lions finished 2nd highlights that.

Let's just focus on our rebuild and determine if we're confident in our coaching staff, playing group, development, leadership and culture...

Bigger picture, I am completely at ease, as the talent is there.

If Teague can't extract the output, changing the coach/s will have minimal downside

But, I think we will continue to see positive tweaks in areas of concern

 

[Blue_Fusion]

U said in hindsight, that’s all.
21 is after 3 & 10.
also FYI , Brad Johnson stated that after working with some of these kids in that draft year, he would have taken Allen in the top 2.

You're missing the whole point of why I asked to do that... which was to show that in 2017 you couldn't name a decent player until pick #21. Most others would agree with you too. But in reality nearly every club passed on Allen with their first pick (including the Eagles who took Brander) so you can't knock our recruiting department. Brad Johnson was not a list manager at the time and he still isn't now.

It's not like there were a whole host of gun kids and we just happened to pick the worst of the bunch...

 

[Stamos]

If Teague can't extract the output, changing the coach/s will have minimal downside

Don't agree with this. Changing a coach is very disruptive. And it means we're wasting more time.
We've already wasted a couple of seasons of our rebuild due to poor development (and outside our control injury and covid).

We need to be moving forward. If we're not, we might never get there, despite having enough talent on the list.

 

[Doro]

Don't agree with this. Changing a coach is very disruptive. And it means we're wasting more time.
We've already wasted a couple of seasons of our rebuild due to poor development (and outside our control injury and covid).

We need to be moving forward. If we're not, we might never get there, despite having enough talent on the list.

Do we have enough talent on the list? I think we're short in the midfield with Cripps struggling to keep carrying the side and short in the forward half with the question marks over Charlie.

 

[Arr0w]

Don't agree with this. Changing a coach is very disruptive. And it means we're wasting more time.
We've already wasted a couple of seasons of our rebuild due to poor development (and outside our control injury and covid).

We need to be moving forward. If we're not, we might never get there, despite having enough talent on the list.

We haven't wasted the rebuild at all and as we saw with when Teague took over, it was a sizable spike

 

[TENACIOUS]

Realise, Carlton are the flavour of the week and next week the media will jump onto something else..

But, do you think that all this noise, specially from supporters, club legends with deep connections to the club and highly rated football people..
That this could be the catalyst for positive change to the way we are currently going about things, within the club?
Or will it just be the usual, we are Carlton we know best, **** the rest attitude?

 

[forever blue 1]

So treading water, status quo is acceptable. Our kids are no longer kids.... the ones we have given excuses for 3-4 years ago have now had 3-4 pre-seasons, maturity with age, development with maturity with AFL mental application, they've been in the system. Either our club is failing to develop players to be the best they can be, or they're not connecting/motivating these players properly (game plan, selection, personalities). How do we flick this switch?

Beveridge won a premiership, Dogs dipped a bit for a year or two after, the list I suspect got big heads and Beveridge was not afraid to make big calls to reel in attitudes. Johansen would never have been dropped at Carlton, Libba's behaviours would not be rectified, we'd still have reports of him taking a leak outside a restaurant/bar at 4am the night before a game, etc.

When is the 'it's all good' look and feel from laid back characters like Teague, Barker, going to change to let them all know it's not all good? From rumours, it seems a lot of our list can't handle the cold hard truth that their application of 18/22 that roll out each game is not up to the required standard and the standard they're capable of.

They have 22-26 x 2 hours a year to give it their all mentally/physically.

The other hours of traing equates to a normal job and paid shed loads mire
So yea
Completely agree
Anyone who doesn’t doesn’t handle the cold hard truth. I’ll wait for the barrage but clearly have no idea of genuine hard work to succeed in this life. True fact I know.

 

[forever blue 1]

And I’m sick to death of supporters labelling others as knowing nothing about Carlton FC or footy if they don’t adhere word by word to a newspaper article..

And I’m sick to death with posters with emus and heads in sand. Time to get real now guys.

 

[forever blue 1]

Drafting isn't easy

Ben Ainsworth (Pick 4, 2016), Jack Scrimshaw (Pick 7, 2016), Peter Wright (Pick 8, 2014), Callum Ah Chee (Pick 8, 2015), Will Brodie (Pick 9, 2016), Jarrod Garlett (Pick 15, 2014), Brayden Fiorini (Pick 20, 2015)

weak argument. Why not just keep going back and back and back in years ?
today they know everything, and the weak recruiters (unless lottery) recruited for the weak clubs and hopeful that they had the people around them to develop into a player.
too many top clubs recruiters know what’s going on.
There are clubs that even if a player was available they pass even if so and so say oh top 20
Because they aren’t the player they want.
Do you want someone with a little mongrel with less skill
Or soft and more skill
I’ll take the first option every day

 

[Percy2257]

Why the hell would Freo trade a player they're willing to offer $3Mill / 4 years for a guy who's struggling to make an impact?

And no, throwing LOB in as steak knives isn't going to convince them either...

My suggestion was based on the unstated assumption that Cerra is likely to accept the offer that we were alleged to have made to him. I just thought it might help us to get him by offering Dow to Freo. Trying to think outside the square. Well that’s my defence anyway.

 

[forever blue 1]

Realise, Carlton are the flavour of the week and next week the media will jump onto something else..

But, do you think that all this noise, specially from supporters, club legends with deep connections to the club and highly rated football people..
That this could be the catalyst for positive change to the way we are currently going about things, within the club?
Or will it just be the usual, we are Carlton we know best, f#@k the rest attitude?

So why wouldn’t / couldn’t we be the flavour next week, good or bad?
oh they bounced back, fantastic
Oh they get drummed again ..
I think it high in the agenda either way.

 

[BlueBlood15]

Realise, Carlton are the flavour of the week and next week the media will jump onto something else..

But, do you think that all this noise, specially from supporters, club legends with deep connections to the club and highly rated football people..
That this could be the catalyst for positive change to the way we are currently going about things, within the club?
Or will it just be the usual, we are Carlton we know best, f#@k the rest attitude?

Hope so but we’ve seen this story before and it often results in a one or two week bump and then we slip back into the same old bad habits. It was only 3 weeks ago we were the talk of the town for our pitiful effort against Collingwood

 

[Stamos]

We haven't wasted the rebuild at all and as we saw with when Teague took over, it was a sizable spike

I’m not saying we’ve wasted our rebuild, but we have wasted quite a bit of valuable time due to poor development, as well as injury and the covid year.

We wouldn’t want to waste too much more time stagnating, or we might miss our chance.

 

[forever blue 1]

I’m not saying we’ve wasted our rebuild, but we have wasted quite a bit of valuable time due to poor development, as well as injury and the covid year.

We wouldn’t want to waste too much more time stagnating, or we might miss our chance.

We need to replace a few. I truly feel patience will be required again.

 

[Stamos]

Do we have enough talent on the list? I think we're short in the midfield with Cripps struggling to keep carrying the side and short in the forward half with the question marks over Charlie.

I think the talent is there. Unfortunately, a lot of it is not currently performing, due to form/injury/poor development.

I definitely think we’re underperforming as a team this year.