Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

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FitzroyBlueBagger

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Definitely. Would like to say that it was never on this board, it always came from opposition supporters. But what would people on the outside know about our list anyway?
Some people do watch a fair amount of footy, there’s some good judges out there and some poor ones as well but your right about other teams lists I’ve always thought that nobody really knows a list better than the supporters of their own...
 

Coops93

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I think it will be the opposite
Agreed. Man on man will be far easier to manipulate than zones in that example.

It's going to look farcical when someone with a curved set shot routine - ala Buddy Franklin - is having a set shot and kicks the ball and the man on the mark is standing 4 metres to the side of it..
 

Elmer_Judd

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I love SOS and his family, and will Never say a bad word about him or his passion and love for the club, I do wish he didn't trade in so many ex GWS players (even for the right reasons) and had a better track record at 2n#/3rd round and later and rookie draft pick selections (Although Tom De Koning is really starting to look like an amazingly astute pick up from SOS)

At the end of the day, I truly believe SOS did fantastic job rebuilding our list after we hit rock bottom during and after 2014/15, but he also should not above (constructive) criticsm when warranted discussing his legacy as list manager..
 

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Macca43

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Was interested to see big Harry say this recently;
“I went the other way, in terms of making my strengths as good as they can be. I hadn’t done a heap of it in the past, but it was always really enjoyable.”

Given last year we slimmed Cripps down to improve his running only to have him lose his best asset - his strength - while also bulking O'brien up only for him to lose his best asset - his running - I think Harry might be onto something!
 

murphster

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Huuuuge part of Jamie Elliot's game.

I thought that after watching his predraft footage, but when you play forward you need to have more than just a single string to your bow. If he is capable of losing his defender on a lead, and gets to a spot from which he can kick a goal, I see no issue.
The issue I see and that we saw a lot last year was to many players going for marks rather than clearing space for a better option, we saw it numerous times with Martin competing and going for mark of the year and ending up spoiling better options in Harry or McGovern, ditto for Casboult who rather than clearing space or keeping his opponent away from the contest would drag his player to the contest and make it harder for the leading option.

I have no problem with smaller players hitting up at times the concern was more that he was taking “a lot” of marks on the lead which isn’t ideal in game especially with our fractious forward structure that doesn’t emphasise working for each other to make space or draw opponents away, it’s an area we really need to improve to be able to score more freely and make the option more obvious for the midfielders kicking inside 50.
 

Macca43

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The issue I see and that we saw a lot last year was to many players going for marks rather than clearing space for a better option, we saw it numerous times with Martin competing and going for mark of the year and ending up spoiling better options in Harry or McGovern, ditto for Casboult who rather than clearing space or keeping his opponent away from the contest would drag his player to the contest and make it harder for the leading option.

I have no problem with smaller players hitting up at times the concern was more that he was taking “a lot” of marks on the lead which isn’t ideal in game especially with our fractious forward structure that doesn’t emphasise working for each other to make space or draw opponents away, it’s an area we really need to improve to be able to score more freely and make the option more obvious for the midfielders kicking inside 50.
Hitting up small players on a lead is great, small players flying for contested marks and getting in the big blokes road not so much.
 

JustaBattler

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I have only been around a couple of years so i didn’t see the comments on Weitering McKay Curnow and others early on being busts, trade them out, which is quite astonishing in itself those three IMO you could see the huge potential in them becoming elite but needed time too develop... Another player I’ve called out earlier on was Fisher being a future star and should never be traded after comments that he should, I’ve had Dow and others backs all along as well, kids need time to develop injuries setbacks have stagnated a few along the way... It’s fine having an opinion on players but sometimes people just ride off youngsters way too quickly without any reasonable commonsense...
Weitering was absolutely murdered in this forum - by people who should know better- accused of being soft and gutless. Some have since deleted their posts from the thread - which just shows how gutless a lot of posters really are...

Casboult has been kicked from pillar to post on this forum - has hapenned since he was tied up and forced to drink whatever as a rookie on a team day on a boat - that was standard unprofessional behaviour from a very unprofessional bunch of players back then.

Robinson and Garlett were smashed by a great majority - for being out one night and lying about it to Malthouse - we lost them both for NOTHING because of that old goat same for Waite same for Eddie...we lost a finals forwaerd line because of Malthouse.

SOS came into Carlton and took a knife to the overpaid underperformers - and gave the Club the breathing room and time to reset the list balance. The Club was rock bottom when he came in - no one wanted to coach the side, no established players wanted to come, it was mission impossible almost to get salary cap use down to 95% hence the salary dumps etc just to maintain sanity as far as individual player 'worth' is cocnerned..Bolton came in and was asked to build a side based on high draft picks so he proceeded to do so...

time replaces facts with narratives designed to suit faded memories often based on incorrect analysis in the first place...

the hard yards are inevitably downplayed as the results of the work of others is enjoyed by the new brigade.

Just a fact of life I guess - and the main reason I left corporate land young and started my own business.
 

gbatman

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Sorry, but you're off the mark here with both these guys, Cuningham in particular.

SPS had some tentative moments in 2020 but he was an absolute bull as a junior and his work in the contest wasn't an issue in his first few years at the club.

The issue has probably come to the fore over the past 18 months or so, funnily enough coinciding with being asked to play a role was completely foreign to him.

I can understand how that comes across as soft, but there's an equally valid argument to suggest he's simply preserving his body and learning a new role.

Cuningham though doesn't avoid contact. Sure he plays a more outside role and doesn't have as much of a consistent impact as we need him to, but he does have a career contested possession rate up over the 40% mark.

His numbers point to being wildly inconsistent. but they certainly don't indicate someone who shirks the contest.
He had consistent tentative moments through the entire season and was often pushed off the footy or found avoiding contact which lead to him halving contests he should be winning or making skill errors because he's not body lining the ball. It's been a real weakness of his and the reason Teague hasn't given him midfield time. You just can't be like that and play midfield, that's a given. The one big change Teague made from Bolton's coaching was to put the more physical players into the middle to make us competitive and that's why he's been in defence. He's in that role for a reason, he has not been good enough for it or physical enough for it and we have had enough who have.

What a player does as a junior is irrelevant, if they don't do it at senior level then it doesn't matter. You just hope that they can take their junior achievements into the AFL some day and SPS has not done that yet. SPS may have been a bull in the U18s but his attack on the footy at AFL level hasn't been up to scratch. I'm not concerned yet as he's young and developing and making progress in this area of his game and I am sure when he's got this up to a good level Teague will give him midfield time but he has to do this first and that's up to him to demonstrate to the coaches that his attack on the contest and his physicality are ready for the midfield at AFL level.

If you want to see SPS in the middle then that's up to him. We need to see those moments where he's holding back and sidestepping before he's got to the footy go and see some genuine physical grunt from him, when we see that then we will see him go into the middle. You need to have a group in there who are willing to bullock and hit bodies and make the physical contest their own or those better teams are going to torch you out of the center and around the stoppages and it won't matter how skilled we are we won't have it, that happened early in the season against Melbourne and Teague did a good job patching up that weakness.

What position or role you play has nothing to do with how you go about playing, a guy who holds back a bit is going to in any position whereas a guy who goes at it like Kade Simpson will do so in any position. I wouldn't call it soft, even though it is a little, I would call it immature. His game and his body have not matured yet and that's something we need to be patient with and wait for. The coaches will make it happen if it is to happen.

Cuningham's attack on the contest is pretty well below par but it's mostly a lack of physical strength with him. You compare him to a Newnes and it's chalk and cheese. Cuningham's biggest weakness is he's a one way runner. He provides very little defensive pressure and in today's game you can't get away with that. He needs to chase and tackle a hell of a lot more. Those missing moments are from that. If the ball isn't coming your way and you aren't finding it you have to impact the game in other ways and get yourself into the game and he doesn't do that.

We can't blame the coach for not playing players where we would like them to be played, he's doing it for a reason. It's up to those players to go up a level. We won't be trying experimental things this season unless things get bad. Players will have to earn their place in the 22 and their position on the field by playing well and playing how they need to play.
 

murphster

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Was interested to see big Harry say this recently;
“I went the other way, in terms of making my strengths as good as they can be. I hadn’t done a heap of it in the past, but it was always really enjoyable.”

Given last year we slimmed Cripps down to improve his running only to have him lose his best assets - his strength - while also bulking O'brien up only for him to lose his best asset - his running - I think Harry might be onto something!
I found that very interesting as well and then today I was listening to Russell’s interview with Dylan & Friends from a couple of years ago and he actually said exactly the same thing regarding making your strengths even stronger as well as improving your deficient areas, it was as usual a very good interview from Russell.

I am actually hoping the club do another in depth interview with Russell this pre season to hear his view on where he thinks the list is at now compared to when he started.

How much our fitness has improved and the break up of different types eg: endurance beasts, explosive power, speed demons and especially hybrid types and how many he thinks we now have as in an earlier interview I think he said Cunners was the only real hybrid type we had, always a very forthright and enlightening interview when he is involved and we need more of it.

Here’s the Dylan & Friends interview for anyone interested.
 

Blue and Blue

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Some people do watch a fair amount of footy, there’s some good judges out there and some poor ones as well but your right about other teams lists I’ve always thought that nobody really knows a list better than the supporters of their own...
Its never just about a list in isolation Its the whole of club and the context. The rebuild was something shortsighted supporters didnt seem to understand. As JustaBattler says above we were rock bottom. Our youngest players were murdered just to put a team out on the ground. Many injured because of that burden. Instead of support this place erupted in knife throwing all because the team coudnt get 4 points each week and some supporters think they are entitled just because. There wasnt much rationality to it and not much football nouse.
 

murphster

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It's a big psychological hurdle too.

The more it happens, the more our players will see a 3-goal blitz from the opposition as "its happening again" and drop their heads, coughing up the next 2-3 goals as well.

And opposition sides won't see a 5 goal deficit as unrealistic to chase, knowing that we're prone to giving them a free pass for 20 mins.

Need to build a reputation as a team that won't let other sides get more than 2 unanswered goals. That way when we build a lead it's the opposition who are dropping their heads.
On the flip side of that is the fact that sides also know that we are never out of the game which we showed numerous times under Teague with our comebacks from 5+goals down, most recently against Sydney late in the year, so we have to look at the swings the other way that we were able to manufacture as well which was a big positive from the year.
 

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murphster

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It really is a number of factors. You're right, player mindset is a major factor, add to that a gameplan, of man on man v zone in different periods, forwards not working hard enough to support mids, mids not supporting backs.

Or, is it that our gamestyle was predictable and sides knew if they lifted their intensity for periods, they could not only score quickly, but also stifle our attacking nature

I still believe that we generally had only one or two gears, attacking gears and Teague was either reluctant to shut the game down or didn't know how.

That's the evolution I want to see, more tempo based on momentum of the game
Yeah we definitely have to develop our tempo football, what concerns me is I think Teague is of the view that the best defence is attack which just isn’t the case all the time.

When he spoke about the 5 goal swings in his recent interview he mentioned that early in the year it was coming from centre bounce stoppages, where as he said later in the year we were getting it forward from the centre bounce but not scoring and the opposition would then transition and score anyway.

This tells me that as I said he thinks the best defence is attack whereas as you say we need to be able to change gears and play a more tempo brand which generally starts from a defensive half of the ground and is based around retaining possession and moving the ball in a more measured way, which I agree with. I’m just not sure the coach does but I hope I’m wrong as this is essential to us controlling the game when the opposition does gain momentum rather than trying to fast play our way into an attacking position.
 

murphster

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If we beat Richmond round 1. Or if we make the top 8 in 2021 I’ll be the first to post on the main board how good was silvagnis picks in 2015. How good was that late pick up Williamson. How good was the drafting of McGovern, plowman, Marchbank, pittonet, Martin, Gibbons, Kennedy, Newman and Setterfield. How many list managers has brought in that many best 22 players.

big footy is an extension of the AFL media. Loves the negative. Carlton had 5-6 very popular threads on the main board where EVERYONE sunk the boots in. I’m not humble. fu** em. I’ll be letting them all know about it.
I think you meant “when we beat Richmond in Rd1” and “when we make the top 8 in 2021-2029.” at least I hope that’s what you meant. 😜
 

murphster

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Best rule change ever, such a small change that will make a huge difference.

The AFL just need to hold their nerve on this one, will be a lot of 50’s early in the year and supporters will be losing their collective minds but they should focus their fury on the players not the umps for paying it. Players will adjust, eventually.


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Until Buddy starts banging them through from 10 metres to the left of the guy on the mark anyway.
 

murphster

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Sure

Is a word. A transitive verb. Used in articulating getting from point a to b. A transition of sorts / replacing old with new etc.

You could have been a boring cnut and supplanted 'supplanting' with 'change' .....much prefer supplant. Good choice.
Let’s just hope we start “supplanting” the ball from defence to attack a bit better this year. 😜
 

murphster

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The game was basically 18 defenders versus 17 attackers when a player was forced to be stationary after taking after a mark /free kick (but the man on the mark effectively was not). This evens it up to 17 versus 17, until play-on is called. Or even tilts the balance in favour of the attacking team having closer to 18 v 17, as the player with the ball initiates the next play.

It will all come down to the discipline of the players on the mark to accept they are out of play (other than to stop the player with the ball running in a straight line towards goal) and staying still. The clubs that better prepare for it will be advantaged in terms of not giving away 50m penalties - as they should be. I read that Brisbane were doing a session recently solely to practice this, and a club would be negligent to not do so.

There is no doubt it will be benefit the clubs with elite ball users who will be able to run and receive more easily. It will also benefit the sides with strong marking forwards, as delivery should be of a higher standard more often. This should see more goals kicked. These are aspects of the game we want to see being benefitted IMO.

Thankfully from our point of view, it should suit us more than a defensive side like say Sydney.
Might also lead to teams clogging up the corridor to try and negate the 45 degree kick inboard and again force the long down the line kick which is of course the aim of moving laterally on the mark, guess we’ll have to wait and see what the unintended consequences will be.
 

murphster

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Going to be a lot of this all over the ground. I reckon the run-past handball receive>long kick is probably going to be the most important part of ball movement in general play next year.
Come in Willo with the big left foot flat punt over 50 mtrs on to Harry’s now substantial chest, woo hoo. 😁
 

windows1

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I believe one of the coaches mentioned that just like SPS, Cunners doesn't have enough of a tank to play as a full time mid.

Sadly, I don't think he's much of a forward either. Most goals he kicked in a year was just 7 in 2019, while across his career just having the 0.3 average goal assists per game too.
Has an much better tank than SPs.
 

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