Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[SkyhorseTamer]

You do. Keep going

Got the Blues? The numbers behind Carlton's midfield malaise - https://www.afl.com.au/news/612654

Try to defend when your midfield is piss weak and the midfield setup is not even park footy level

 

[Gethelred]

Just confirms, with some level of stats, that the defense of our clearances is unwarranted. The setup doesn't work at all and it's the worst I've seen it ever as a blues supporter. Laying blame is hard but the person directly responsible has to take the brunt.

I think it just shows how much our setups were reliant on Cripps' dominance, and now that he's not dominating we're foundering.

There's also the fact that for ****ing years - and this is the bit that kills me - we've built our setup on Kreuzer winning the tap, and for whatever ****ing reason we're still setting up to win it even though he's retired and we have Pittonett in there.

I do not know how you can be so reliant on your ruckman winning the taps to win the clearances.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I think it just shows how much our setups were reliant on Cripps' dominance, and now that he's not dominating we're foundering.

There's also the fact that for ******* years - and this is the bit that kills me - we've built our setup on Kreuzer winning the tap, and for whatever ******* reason we're still setting up to win it even though he's retired and we have Pittonett in there.

I do not know how you can be so reliant on your ruckman winning the taps to win the clearances.

Yep. It happens. Coaches run bad systems and get bailed out by superstar players, clubs are slow to realise all too often too. Just kills me that it's been obvious since the Bolton era. He's the best clearance player I've ever seen of course we are going to break even when he's fit, regardless of coaching and setup. Just being exposed for what I call lazy coaching at the moment.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Good Point...
Really, not sure how an available and willing

• 3 x Premiership Player Defender
• 3 x All Australian Defender
• 2 x Premiership Assistant Coach Defence

could offer us more than Amos..

Agreed..
McQualter (Offensive Midfield) & Kingsley (Midfield Stoppages), would be great choices to look at also

 

[Gethelred]

Good Point...
Really, not sure how an available and willing

• 3 x Premiership Player Defender
• 3 x All Australian Defender
• 2 x Premiership Assistant Coach Defence

could offer us more than Amos..

Agreed..
McQualter (Offensive Midfield) & Kingsley (Midfield Stoppages), would be great choices to look at also

Amos is good at his job. He's never had the cattle before now, and he's rewarding us now he does; he overachieved with Henderson, Duigan and Jamison, given the players at his disposal. Under Bolton, our defense was beyond our best line; it essentially upheld the rest of the team. Under Teague, despite the defensive stats, it's still arguably our best line.

If we're firing people who are good at their job for highly credentialed critical voices in the media, I want off this merry-go-round. Sorry.

 

[F_therest]

Clearly nothing to do with our coaches or system though...

Stats don't tell the whole story, and I rely mostly on my eyes at the ground to shape my thoughts. The Collingwood game has turned me off attending another live match this season until the whole group (players and coaches) prove they have turned things around.

Barker out.

Our shitty midfield in clearances and two-way running is the main reason we lose games.

 

[thylacine60]

Clearly nothing to do with our coaches or system though...

Stats don't tell the whole story, and I rely mostly on my eyes at the ground to shape my thoughts. The Collingwood game has turned me off attending another live match this season until the whole group (players and coaches) prove they have turned things around.

"What was Walsh like in his early days?"
"Amazing. Wish I'd seen more of him but I preferred to take a stand about our systems and stopped going to games".
"That sounds really stupid".
"Yeah. Looking back it was. Really stupid".

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

"What was Walsh like in his early days?"
"Amazing. Wish I'd seen more of him but I preferred to take a stand about our systems and stopped going to games".
"That sounds really stupid".
"Yeah. Looking back it was. Really stupid".

'carlton was so bad back then why did you keep going'
'to see Walsh play, everyone knew he was special'
'still saw him plenty after carlton climbed up the ladder again, could've instead spent Sunday afternoons doing something that didn't disappoint your kid.'
'good point'

Works both ways

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Ok...
Please answer me these as I truly don't understand

• How he is good at his job?
• How he and our backline is rewarding us now?

Wut. We stayed with Richmond round 1 despite a record number of inside 50s against us. How is that not answering your two questions on its own. The back line is great, because on the couch highlights 2 mistakes doesn't suddenly make the line bad. Every line in every game will make mistakes.

 

[katmanblue]

Not really telling us anything we don't already know

They rarely do. We have more of a vested interest here and look at our club closer than they have any reason to.

 

[katmanblue]

Barker out.

Our shitty midfield in clearances and two-way running is the main reason we lose games.

Yeah, Barker and Stanton might be lovely blokes, but please, can they stay the **** away from my club?

Thanks.

 

[Gethelred]

Ok...
Please answer me these as I truly don't understand

• How he is good at his job?
• How he and our backline is rewarding us now?

I have a question for you, then. How do you measure an AFL defense?

Is it a thing that is possible to do in isolation from the midfield or the forward line? Is the pure 'points for and against' truly the best measure of a defense? Is it the players in the defense, or the defense's output across the board?

The reason why I'm asking is because Richmond's defense isn't really there to stop their direct opponents; it's a byproduct of them intercepting the long high ball the midfield has created. Their job is to transition the ball out the vacant side of the ground before the opposition can stop them, and to get it as deep as they can before the play can be halted. You cannot discuss Richmond's defense without discussing their midfield and their forward flankers, at the very least.

What about Geelong? They've got a flock of great players whose performance is greater than the sum of their parts. Funny thing, though; under Scott, they've played kick-mark out of the backline every year of the past decade since 2013. They go slow and precise, and use their greater than average height across the board to allow them to retain possession in a slow play. Funny thing about slow plays; they allow the defense to maintain their structure behind the ball, because the midfield is giving them time to react to every shift in ground position.

How would you grade Amos, given the midfield his defenders have had to play behind?

Our backline is our best line. Jones' form is arguably worse than it's been over the past 3 years, yet he's earning accolades across the competition with his intercepting play. Weitering is considered a lynchpin for AA. Doc is well regarded, as is Saad, as is Plowman who is finally earning kudos for his game this year.

Short of going through the stats for each and every game for the past 10 years and analysing what the teams said to be 'good' at defense do well, I don't know how you can rank line coaches without a degree of equivocation.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Eh. Article writes itself, and covers itself for all future possibilities.

Possibility A: Carlton pays Cripps 1 million a year. Cripps plays well, money well spent, and the authors get increased credibility and get something else to write about.

Possibility B: Carlton pays Cripps 1 million a year. Cripps plays poorly/average, and the authors get to write about how Carlton wasted their money and rely on parochialism/goldfish memories to have what they originally said forgotten. They get something else to write about.

Possibility C: Carlton doesn't pay Cripps 1 million a year but Cripps resigns. Carlton's cap is too stretched to pay him what he's worth, and he could be traded in future for more money. Are Carlton risking too much by refusing to pay their captain what he's worth? They get something to write about.

Possibility D: Cripps doesn't sign, regardless of what Carlton offer. Carlton were Ebenezer Scrooge, and it has cost them their captain. Carlton's inability to retain their high quality risks their much publicised rebuild, and could see them plummet further. Pressure builds on other players. They get something to write about.

They're all about selling copy, and their narratives here are about giving themselves something to say and something to follow up on. No matter what, they're going to have a take, and this one ensures that future articles can build on the first one; win-win from their direction.

I do feel sorry for the ghost-writers, though. The idea that Wayne Carey is writing those articles in their entirety is absurd.

So we pay him a decent amount but nothing outlandish and have further incentives in the contract. Plays well, gets paid well. Plays poorly, paid more responsibly. Media loses.

 

[Gethelred]

So we pay him a decent amount but nothing outlandish and have further incentives in the contract. Plays well, gets paid well. Plays poorly, paid more responsibly. Media loses.

I like it, but I'd probably prefer we didn't deliberately write our contracts based on going out of our way to give the media absolutely nothing.

It tickles my fancy, but probably not best practice.

 

[gandaal]

So we pay him a decent amount but nothing outlandish and have further incentives in the contract. Plays well, gets paid well. Plays poorly, paid more responsibly. Media loses.

Sorry mate but the media will just make up a story if that's the case. According to them, we'll be paying him 1.2 mill before the end of the week.

Zac Williams contracts goes up every month for instance.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I like it, but I'd probably prefer we didn't deliberately write our contracts based on going out of our way to give the media absolutely nothing.

It tickles my fancy, but probably not best practice.

Wouldn't do it for the media. That's a bonus. Doing it to be fiscally responsible, given his current form.

You know Cripps is holding out until he has a BOG performance.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Sorry mate but the media will just make up a story if that's the case. According to them, we'll be paying him 1.2 mill before the end of the week.

Zac Williams contracts goes up every month for instance.

As long as we aren't actually paying that, I'm fine. If you want to win, leave money for the others.

 

[thylacine60]

When I used to follow real Carlton no-one ever gave a shit about salaries, press conferences, injury conspiracies or assistant coaches - we just watched the game, had a grizzle or a laugh after and went home till next time.

 

[Koutamightafides]

Would be the biggest comeback in a season to win a premiership since we did it in 1945.
Three wins in opening 9 rounds and also a 100 point loss in round 3.

Rd 9 Ladder
SM	9​	32​	127.6​
NM	9​	28​	122.2​
FO	9​	28​	119.0​
CW	9​	24​	111.7​
RI	9​	24​	105.7​
ES	9​	22​	127.4​
FI	9​	18​	118.6​
ME	9​	12​	95.3​
CA	9​	12​	84.0​
SK	9​	8​	71.9​
GE	9​	4​	76.4​
HW	9​	4​	73.6​

1945 Ladder

LP	Club	P	W	L	D	FOR	AGN	%	PTS
1	South Melbourne	20	16	4	0	1840	1396	131.81	64
2	Collingwood	20	15	5	0	1902	1477	128.78	60
3	North Melbourne	20	13	7	0	1696	1526	111.14	52
4	Carlton	20	13	7	0	1718	1607	106.91	52
5	Footscray	20	12	8	0	1717	1576	108.95	48
6	Fitzroy	20	11	8	1	1730	1452	119.15	46
7	Richmond	20	11	9	0	1802	1742	103.44	44
8	Essendon	20	10	9	1	1837	1614	113.82	42
9	Melbourne	20	8	12	0	1683	1699	99.06	32
10	Hawthorn	20	6	14	0	1665	1944	85.65	24
11	Geelong	20	2	18	0	1415	2180	64.91	8
12	St. Kilda	20	2	18	0	1305	2097	62.23	8

First Semi-final

	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	Score	Date / Result	Ground	Crowd
Carlton	5.3	8.4	13.7	14.10	94	Sat 8-Sep-1945 2:30 pm	Princes Park	54,846
North Melbourne	0.4	1.12	2.13	8.20	68	Carlton won by 26 points

Preliminary Final

	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	Score	Date / Result	Ground	Crowd
Collingwood	5.2	6.4	11.7	12.8	80	Sat 22-Sep-1945 2:30 pm	Princes Park	41,305
Carlton	1.0	4.7	6.9	13.12	90	Carlton won by 10 points

Grand Final

	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	Score	Date / Result	Ground	Crowd
Carlton	2.4	7.5	12.9	15.13	103	Sat 29-Sep-1945 2:50 pm	Princes Park	62,986
South Melbourne	0.5	6.9	8.10	10.15	75	Carlton won by 28 points

So you're saying that there's a chance ?

 

[Koutamightafides]

So we pay him a decent amount but nothing outlandish and have further incentives in the contract. Plays well, gets paid well. Plays poorly, paid more responsibly. Media loses.

All players should have an incentive element to their contracts , they perform they get paid they don't perform to a certain standard they don't get paid . Simples .

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

All players should have an incentive element to their contracts , they perform they get paid they don't perform to a certain standard they don't get paid . Simples .

We won't get people to come if we do that. However, for the massive contracts where we are banking on a player getting back to their best form like this, then certainly.

We do have to match what other clubs are doing unfortunately and the lack of performance clause is always going to beat a performance clause. An incentive clause on top of a reasonably market figure instead of a the top market figure alone, just might work.

 

[Raging Blue]

When I used to follow real Carlton no-one ever gave a sh*t about salaries, press conferences, injury conspiracies or assistant coaches - we just watched the game, had a grizzle or a laugh after and went home till next time.

I suppose things were so much simpler back in the early 1900’s, no salaries, television, no assistant coaches...............but we are so grateful to modern science that they were able to bring a thylacine back to life

 

[thylacine60]

I stand humbled and four footed before you.

 

[footyfan1978]

So you're saying that there's a chance ?

I am.
Even Buckley had a chance.

 

[AT97]

Great little yarn in the hun today by Jon Anderson talking to Peter Bedford about his big v experience and “big nick”.

“The player who really stood out to me was ruckman John Nicholls (left). In our first game against Tasmania their captain Darrel Baldock collected me with a backhander, breaking my nose, splitting my lip and chipping a tooth. At halftime “Big Nick” calmly asked me who had done it and then squared off early in the third quarter. He had an extraordinary ability to influence games.”

he could play a bit as well!

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