Opinion The Chicken or the Egg... drafting or development

[Ricketz]

To be honest it could be both, there are people with no doubt more logical and knowing views than me... I just find it hard to pin all the blame one way or the other either

I think with movements in our coaching and fitness staff it is indisputable that we have had some problems in the past with our development of younger players, but...

It should also be seen in the context of our high ladder finishes, higher expectations post our glory era, and the dilution of available talent with the inclusion of GWS and GCS.

We could have done some things better, but we also have done pretty well regardless. We don't have an academy system like Sydney, we don't have a plethora of draft picks like GWS, and we don't have the luxury of bottoming out like Saints and WB. We have done far better than teams with better picks like the Pies, Richmond, GCS, Melbourne, Freo, Adelaide, WCE, Brisbane, Saints, North Melbourne, Port and Essendon. How many of those teams have been in finals contention as long as we have and how many of their youth would displace ours?

Hawthorn are probably worse than us, but have done much better with their mature age recruits and timing their peak to coincide with the expansion. GWS and Sydney set the benchmark, IMO.

 

[Ricketz]

It has been the very same players who climbed the mountain all those years ago under Mark Thompson which have ultimately seen Geelong make the finals in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014.
Even last year, if Dangerfield said he was going to remain with Adelaide for the rest of his career, which players actually contribute those 32 disposals (16 of them contested), 8 inside fifties, 6.5 clearances, 1 goal and 1 assist?
I truly believe if Dangerfield did not sign, Geelong would have been battling with North Melbourne for that final 8th spot on the ladder as he was single handedly responsible for winning a few games during the season.
This has been the same old story for many years now. The top tier of players have always had to perform at an all time exceptional level and maintain it until they were well into their 30's.
There came a time when it looked as though Caddy, Duncan, Motlop, Christensen, Horlin-Smith, Murdoch, T.Hunt, Stringer, Thurlow, West, Simpson, Vardy etc, ect were going to start asking questions of the older players but as time has gone by, only a select handful have actually raised their games to the point where no longer had to worry about the champions playing at a high level at the end of their careers.
I speak mainly of Guthrie (as a defender) & Menzel as both boys have been the best of the lot on a consistent basis.

It all comes down to development and at Geelong, we are pretty average at it. Certainly not terrible by any means but average to say the least.
You only have to look at the players we moved on to see the outcome. Taylor Hunt went from a lot of promise to virtually non existent. Went across to Richmond and improved out of sight.
Joel Hamling broke into a premiership winning side and remained there.
Travis Varcoe went to Collingwood and has produced the same kind of numbers he did when he was coached by Mark Thompson.
Jonathan Simpkin went from a so so player to a premiership winning player at Hawthorn.
The only young players who we let go off and have not become anything so far are Dawson Simpson, Tom Gillies & Trent West (ACL injury).

Taylor Hunt hasn't improved. He wouldn't get a game in a better side, and was almost delisted last year according to rumours. In a basket case club like Richmond. Of our cast offs, the only player who would get a run in our side this year is Caddy... maybe. TV played well for us - I don't see him as playing better for the Pies, just playing like he did before his injuries with us.

 

[Willo_]

Was thinking about this exact subject earlier - it's impossible to fully know if it is drafting or development but in a lot of cases, young players like Vardy, Smedts and Brown showed great promise early on but didn't kick on. Yes injuries played a part but was that the sole reason? Who knows. Would be nice to see some young players step up though.

I've thought about starting this thread for a while as I have a mate who is adamant 'Wells is a myth'
Apart from being a smartarse and pointing out he is an actual person therefore can't be a myth I also tried to suggest it's not necessarily Wells, but could be the draftees aren't being developed as well.

And here we are now as I thought it was an interesting discussion point when we are lacking things to discuss

 

[hbk_aus]

I've thought about starting this thread for a while as I have a mate who is adamant 'Wells is a myth'
Apart from being a smartarse and pointing out he is an actual person therefore can't be a myth I also tried to suggest it's not necessarily Wells, but could be the draftees aren't being developed as well.

And here we are now as I thought it was an interesting discussion point when we are lacking things to discuss

It could be bits of both. The development skills of Thompson, McCartney, Hinkley and co. could have made Wells and his team look better than they were. And now it is possible that the downfall in development is making Wells' picks look worse than they actually are...

So not really adding much to the thread am I...

 

[David the Cat]

Taylor Hunt hasn't improved. He wouldn't get a game in a better side, and was almost delisted last year according to rumours. In a basket case club like Richmond. Of our cast offs, the only player who would get a run in our side this year is Caddy... maybe. TV played well for us - I don't see him as playing better for the Pies, just playing like he did before his injuries with us.

Agreed....Caddy will do OK at the Tigers.

We lost out on the Varcoe trade tho

 

[Ricketz]

Agreed....Caddy will do OK at the Tigers.

We lost out on the Varcoe trade tho

True, we did. But people forget he played some pretty good footy with us - I think we developed him, not the pies.

 

[Ricketz]

I've thought about starting this thread for a while as I have a mate who is adamant 'Wells is a myth'
Apart from being a smartarse and pointing out he is an actual person therefore can't be a myth I also tried to suggest it's not necessarily Wells, but could be the draftees aren't being developed as well.

And here we are now as I thought it was an interesting discussion point when we are lacking things to discuss

Part of it has to be the players themselves. It's too easy for some to write of developed guns like Selwood as being naturally talented, and the failures as poor management. The truth is somewhere in between. We don't have the luxury of sliding doors - the best we can do is work with our revolving ones.

 

[BlightysCats]

I think when you see what the Bulldogs did with Hamling you'd have to say our development program isn't a touch on the Bulldogs at the very least.

 

[David the Cat]

True, we did. But people forget he played some pretty good footy with us - I think we developed him, not the pies.

This is absolutely right....the Pies did well there...

 

[David the Cat]

I think when you see what the Bulldogs did with Hamling you'd have to say our development program isn't a touch on the Bulldogs at the very least.

So good that he pissed off to Freo....

 

[Art Vandelay_]

This is absolutely right....the Pies did well there...

Statistically he's been similar at Collingwood. They've got 39 games out of him in 2 seasons. His last 3 here netted 38 games, so you could say they've got some injury free footy from Travis that in his last couple of seasons we struggled to get.

 

[Ricketz]

I think when you see what the Bulldogs did with Hamling you'd have to say our development program isn't a touch on the Bulldogs at the very least.

What the bulldogs did with Hamling is have half their backline injured. Who would he have replaced in our backline last year? I'd take the bigger bodied Kolo any day of the week. Their stats were remarkably similar last year, except Kolo is two years younger and playing in a better backline - that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Ricketz]

So good that he pissed off to Freo....

Yes, there is a reason he did that with a full strength WB backline this year. Look, I don't hate the guy - but I am comfortable with him moving on.

 

[BlightysCats]

What the bulldogs did with Hamling is have half their backline injured. Who would he have replaced in our backline last year? I'd take the bigger bodied Kolo any day of the week. Their stats were remarkably similar last year, except Kolo is two years younger and playing in a better backline - that pretty much sums it up.

Hamling was a KPD in a premiership team, he was nowhere near that standard at Geelong and it's a credit to the Bulldogs development staff that they were able to get him to that point in less than 24 months.

 

[BlightysCats]

Nobody seems to be mentioning that in 5 of Bombers last 6 seasons we had pretty crappy draft opportunities due to finishing up the ladder yet we developed far better youth in that time than the comparable time period with Scott - make of it what you will.

 

[Turbocat]

I do not think its about the quality of coaches or the recruitment choices , there have been misses but there always has been. Look back and we had several poor selections or failed developments. To me we have changed our aim from trying to climb the mountain ..to staying there. Generally I think we are coming from a different place , we trying to make the most of what we have while they are still high level..where as in the last build there was an emphasis to create new group , young faces were brought in to replace , not to compliment. When the main focus becomes to bring in young players that are not fully developed , when that becomes #1 priority rather maintaining our ladder position , then development will be given its best chance... and all recruitment choices will follow that focus.

 

[Willo_]

Hamling was a KPD in a premiership team, he was nowhere near that standard at Geelong and it's a credit to the Bulldogs development staff that they were able to get him to that point in less than 24 months.

He was also odds on the be delisted half way through the year as wasn't close to getting in.
He was fortunate that their key backs basically all got hurt, don't get me wrong he did well... but the premiership and playing on a lame Buddy have given him more credits than i think he really has.

I'm expecting him to be nothing more than an honest trier at Freo and not overly sure what else we could have done with him

 

[dazbroncos]

I liked Hammer while he was here and was disappointed at his release - and when he left after not wanting the Rookie spot I hoped he did well. I felt he needed another year or two of VFL development and size/fitness gains.

That said, he was not displacing anyone in the best 22 at the time. And even in the last 2 years, has really not shown much. He certainly made the most of his chances in 2016 when it presented itself, but he didnt displace anyone from the Doggies back 6 - he went it as next man in not hurt.

Suggesting we blew it by letting him go to me is revisionist history. Not knocking his success but he hasn't set the world on fire, and perhaps the litmus test will be in the back 6 at Freo - where the talent level is fairly different ( ie not as good as the Doggies)

And WB had the chance to increase the offer to him and keep him but he left.... to go home and play with Kersten. Im not sold this will increase his ability to effect the game as a defender. Maybe he'll prove me wrong - hope for him he does.

Go Catters

 

[Willo_]

I liked Hammer while he was here and was disappointed at his release - and when he left after not wanting the Rookie spot I hoped he did well. I felt he needed another year or two of VFL development and size/fitness gains.

That said, he was not displacing anyone in the best 22 at the time. And even in the last 2 years, has really not shown much. He certainly made the most of his chances in 2016 when it presented itself, but he didnt displace anyone from the Doggies back 6 - he went it as next man in not hurt.

Suggesting we blew it by letting him go to me is revisionist history. Not knocking his success but he hasn't set the world on fire, and perhaps the litmus test will be in the back 6 at Freo - where the talent level is fairly different ( ie not as good as the Doggies)

And WB had the chance to increase the offer to him and keep him but he left.... to go home and play with Kersten. Im not sold this will increase his ability to effect the game as a defender. Maybe he'll prove me wrong - hope for him he does.

Go Catters

I was a bit miffed when we let him go, offering him a rookie deal or not, to draft a project player then expect to cut his wage and send him back to the rookie list doesn't sit comfortably with me, I would have preferred that we had persisted with him a little longer.
That said he was never in the frame for a debut, despite talk of lack of opportunity there was not a place for him, and being the role he is in it is not like the midfield where you can role a few people in and out... we have had very good defensive talls basically what seems like forever... he wasn't up for pushing someone out and while we were still challenging and trying to contend he couldn't have been expected to be gifted games.

It is par for the course these days with younger players, some miss out, some aren't patient enough to earn their spot.

The only mistake we made regarding him IMO was not a development one, but a list decision one... and even then with Kolo pressing the likely hood would have been that only 1 could have tried to claim any spot as it was

 

[catempire]

Sending to the rookie list was a half way delisting. I suspect we though that he wasn't going to make it and on VFL evidence there was a fair case for that view. Hamling made exactly the right decision for himself - he went to a club that lacked KPD depth and gave himself the best chance he could.

Had he stayed he'd likely be back in country WA by now.

It worked out as well as it could for him and no worse for us.

 

[Ricketz]

Hamling was a KPD in a premiership team, he was nowhere near that standard at Geelong and it's a credit to the Bulldogs development staff that they were able to get him to that point in less than 24 months.

Some people are just in the right place at the right time. Hamling was more circumstance than ability.

 

[dazbroncos]

Some people are just in the right place at the right time. Hamling was more circumstance than ability.

2016's Cam Mooney.. Although I would suggest hammer had more effect than moons did - but that's more of an indightment on Moons poor performance than Hammers good one

Go Catters

 

[Ricketz]

2016's Cam Mooney.. Although I would suggest hammer had more effect than moons did - but that's more of an indightment on Moons poor performance than Hammers good one

Go Catters

I agree - Hamling was good and did his job, IMO.

 

[Partridge]

Sending to the rookie list was a half way delisting. I suspect we though that he wasn't going to make it and on VFL evidence there was a fair case for that view. Hamling made exactly the right decision for himself - he went to a club that lacked KPD depth and gave himself the best chance he could.

Had he stayed he'd likely be back in country WA by now.

It worked out as well as it could for him and no worse for us.

Pretty much. Of all the players we've let go in recent years, I'd argue there are others who showed much more, and did it for far longer than Hamling did. No queries from me about that particular decision.

 

[dangerwood]

For mine it's definitely both. For a while it seemed like we couldnt make a mistake with our drafting, not all of them were stars but most players who came to our club improved greatly, and if they didn't make it at ours they were often picked up by others.

Over recent years we have drafted some flawed but talented players and I've struggled to see any progress in their game across several years.

In the past we drafted well and our club was a great learning environment, I think bomber has to take some credit for that.

Recently players haven't improved but we seem to have shifted from our previous drafting philosophy. In the past we had heavy emphasis on character and competitiveness, whilst simple it does mean you get the most out of that type. In most recent decade weve drafted some players who just don't appear to really put in, those types will always tease but never get any better.

Im really happy with last years draft, it seems to have gone back to our old ways. Stewart and Parfitt speak very well and fill me with confidence that they will get the most out of themselves.