Roast The Cull needs to start

[Panthera]

I'm not Quigley, but I think your post can be boiled down to this. The net result is that they are not good enough IN YOUR OPINION. I hold differing ones. By the looks of Quigley's post he holds different ones. I'm willing to bet that the club holds different ones, given I bet they don't delist everyone on your list(s) at the end of the year.

Collier I can see becoming a good enough player, and would offer him an extra year to see if he can step up. Hawksley has shown more than enough, and if he could remove the brain fades that seem to invariably lead to opposition goals (or played further away from our defense) would be a useful player. Selwood I agree with. Stiller I'm 50/50 on, as he's looked relatively solid in the last month but I'm not hugely sold on keeping him anyway. Sheldon I'm also 50/50 on. I'd like to see an extra year of him, but he seems to have regressed over the last year. Austin would go because he doesn't seem to put any pressure on to be selected.

Not to mention some of your delistings are crazy because you seem to want to throw out any key position player that hasn't made an impact within two years when they generally take longer to develop.

Well done for realising that writing in a forum is ones' opinion

Also, your softness on the players you've listed above is exactly what I meant by some Lion supporters accepting mediocrity and wanting to give players obviously not good enough to represent our jumper more time on the list. What do you think is going to happen, suddenly they are going to become great players after time and time again showing us they are in fact the opposite

As for your comment on KPP's - the only one is McCulloch who was a speculative pick a few years back and has had one injury after another without even playing AFL; do we wait 6 years and then delist???

 

[Quigley]

Quigs, I like a lot of what you write on here, but not this

Our team will finish 13th and despite the injuries and 2nd year coaching blues, there is no reason whatsoever to want cohesion and continuity in a bunch of underperforming players who can't kick, can't handball, can't tackle, can't pressure the opposition and can't follow instructions

Accepting mediocrity is not what I want from my football club, nor it's supporters - I want the axe to fall on whoever cannot help deliver us back to the top 4 and I want to recruit new players, no matter what number draft pick with 2 key attributes: great kick & willingness to learn > this is what Collingwood has recruited over the past 6 seasons and they are doing well for it. Kicking is the single most important skill in our great game and the Lions are deplorable in kicking efficiency

Stiller, Collier, Selwood, Hawksley, Sheldon etc etc are not good enough, simple as that; why do you want to prolong their careers and increase the time they are holding us back - there is no reason to at all.

One thing which you overlook Panthera is how little work we actually do on our kicking. If the coaching staff actually put some work into the skills side of things I think many of our players would improve and most of the guys on your list are young enough to learn. Rich was a fantastically accurate kick last year but not as effective this year. Redden also had good feel on his kicks which seem to have deserted him. If the coaching staff work on building up skills this offseason I think a lot of guys who are seen to have poor skills could really improve. Collier and Hawksley were both very good kicks under 18 just by way of example. Develop a skills program for these guys like a weights program and I think they would improve enormously.

Personally I think you have to be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A lot of the guys you are keen on getting rid of are babies with a lot of improvement left in them if handled correctly. Every one of them has shown glimpses that they could be very nice players and I would hope that they appreciate after this year how much they need to improve in order to make it.

Also why make a change if its not going to improve the side and might harm the side moral wise? Sure we have a lot of gaps to fill but I would not have thought this was the year to try and fill them all. We have made a good start in the 08 and 09 drafts and need to continue to build like that. The quick fix that we tried after last season has not worked and the quick fix you seem to be suggesting would also be destined for failure I think.

 

[Quigley]

Dont mean to be rude, but you all have to see the funny side in that comment.....
You will never trade Fev, he is on huge $ and a long contract....
No other club in their right mind would pick that up.....

Money will obviously be an issue but we could always do what you guys did and offer to pay some of it.

Lets assume that the Saints fall short this year and can get Fev for 350k next year whilst losing someone like Armitage to the GC. They could package another youngish player to Brisbane to be salary cap neutral and throw in their first rounder and be greatly improved for next year. They are a veteran team with a strong capt and coach and would be confident of keeping Fev in line. Sound familiar?

You could substitute Collingwood for St Kilda if they lose Cloke as well. There will be a few interested if the price is right.

 

[Slattery_20]

Money will obviously be an issue but we could always do what you guys did and offer to pay some of it.

Lets assume that the Saints fall short this year and can get Fev for 350k next year whilst losing someone like Armitage to the GC. They could package another youngish player to Brisbane to be salary cap neutral and throw in their first rounder and be greatly improved for next year. They are a veteran team with a strong capt and coach and would be confident of keeping Fev in line. Sound familiar?

You could substitute Collingwood for St Kilda if they lose Cloke as well. There will be a few interested if the price is right.

St K might be a bit more wary after the whole Lovett thing. Think they might be keeping their heads down.

 

[Old Den]

Well done for realising that writing in a forum is ones' opinion

Also, your softness on the players you've listed above is exactly what I meant by some Lion supporters accepting mediocrity and wanting to give players obviously not good enough to represent our jumper more time on the list. What do you think is going to happen, suddenly they are going to become great players after time and time again showing us they are in fact the opposite

As for your comment on KPP's - the only one is McCulloch who was a speculative pick a few years back and has had one injury after another without even playing AFL; do we wait 6 years and then delist???

McCulloch has been on the list for 2 years and shows promise...has had a lot of injury but no need to wait 6 years to call it quits if that continues,when 2 more will do - compare the injury problems of fellow talls Clark and Leuenberger during their early years at the club.

I think that McCulloch should get a new contract and I think he will.

I have often referred to the long list of Lion's players who were rubbished on this board and had their scalps called for (Brennan and Rischitelli are just two of them,add McGrath as well) only to show a lot of improvement later on - patience and some belief are needed as some players work through the difficult path of improving their game to be regular AFL performers and some players are cut from lists only to prosper at another club.

After last season I thought (and still do) that the experienced players that were brought in improved the list compared to those who left overall but I rued the loss of Henderson looking to the future - we will need a lot to go well for us to play finals next year no matter what happens on the list management front.

 

[Panthera]

One thing which you overlook Panthera is how little work we actually do on our kicking. If the coaching staff actually put some work into the skills side of things I think many of our players would improve and most of the guys on your list are young enough to learn. Rich was a fantastically accurate kick last year but not as effective this year. Redden also had good feel on his kicks which seem to have deserted him. If the coaching staff work on building up skills this offseason I think a lot of guys who are seen to have poor skills could really improve. Collier and Hawksley were both very good kicks under 18 just by way of example. Develop a skills program for these guys like a weights program and I think they would improve enormously.

Personally I think you have to be careful about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A lot of the guys you are keen on getting rid of are babies with a lot of improvement left in them if handled correctly. Every one of them has shown glimpses that they could be very nice players and I would hope that they appreciate after this year how much they need to improve in order to make it.

Also why make a change if its not going to improve the side and might harm the side moral wise? Sure we have a lot of gaps to fill but I would not have thought this was the year to try and fill them all. We have made a good start in the 08 and 09 drafts and need to continue to build like that. The quick fix that we tried after last season has not worked and the quick fix you seem to be suggesting would also be destined for failure I think.

Recently I've heard that a player needs 10,000 hours of kicking practice/drill to improve his kicking by 10%
Stiller and Collier will be 77 when this happens

You are right in stating the '08 & '09 draft have been good ones for us; so why not continue with it this year. We all know the GC will have the bulk of the goodies, but say we have 6 picks in rounds 2-6 and 3 are hits - I think the risk is worth it

 

[whatboutbob]

I'd love to know how many of our premiership players would've been on the list in '99 if the Pantheras of this world had their way.

 

[Quigley]

Disagree OD. Typical developing team yo-yo. One year up one year down progressively moving up the ladder before acheiving consistency. We certainly have a list that should be playing finals. If we can stay healthy and work on the issues that we had this year I think we should at least return to where we were last year.

 

[acuguy]

Fev isn't going anywhere, the only way he leaves our club is if he breaks down over the next month and pleads with Voss to move back to Melbourne- fingers crossed.

The kicking issue is an interesting one. Rich has kicked average this year, but kicking errors are normally the result of 3 things- poor technique, sloppy skill execution or indecision. I think part of our skill problems this year can be based on indecision as much as anything. Our boys simply have not run hard enough to present or been proactive enough to create an option or space for someone else.

I don't think we should be making wholesale changes to our current list. I have changed my mind on Sheldon after re watching our victory at the Gabba against Carlton in last years final. The kid can play, let's just hope he gets a full uninterruped pre season, i am also willing to run with Austin as well.

Let's assume we lose from our main list

Brennan
Rischitelli
Selwood
Johnstone
Charman

Without any rookie elevations - can't see it happening if they haven't played senior footy this year

That would give us room to add one established player and 4 draft picks. Personally that is enough change.

For us to get better our coaching staff needs to work methodically with the likes of

Proud, Sheldon, Austin, Hawksley, Hanley,Collier and the like to help the become regular contributors. All have the ability. No point cutting 20-22 year olds who have had 4 or less seasons in the system, we need these blokes to come good or else we are screwed for the next couple of seasons.

 

[chopperduck]

I very much agree to keeping changes to a minimum this year. Let's not forget the purge we did only last year, clearing out nearly every player we had outside of the 25, save a few. Similar thing will happen this year, but with the mature players that can't crack the 22, ie Selwood and TJ. We have very little to show for our drafting over the last 6 years or so, bar maybe Brennan, Riska, Bergs and Clark, and 2 of those are gone. We don't have much to show up until the 08 draft, and as already said we must build on the foundations the 08 draft has started.

I don't think there are any young/rookie players that deserve being cut this year, most are pretty fresh. We need to put some good focus into our rookie list and try snag a few players there.

 

[Balony_pony16]

man I am pissed that we traded for Fev!!!! I wish teh lions A) never got him, or B) could fine a new home for him in 2011. We have been lacking midfield depth for years now and are about to lose 2 key players because of Fev's recruitment. Bloody hell Voss!

 

[dlanod]

Well done for realising that writing in a forum is ones' opinion

Because your great system seems to be to call for players' heads as if it's all done and dusted and no further insight provided. If people disagree with you they're "soft", "accepting mediocrity", or "help to hold us back". You're presenting your POV as facts and can't let any rationality enter it less it destablize your little world.

Also, your softness on the players you've listed above is exactly what I meant by some Lion supporters accepting mediocrity and wanting to give players obviously not good enough to represent our jumper more time on the list. What do you think is going to happen, suddenly they are going to become great players after time and time again showing us they are in fact the opposite

As for your comment on KPP's - the only one is McCulloch who was a speculative pick a few years back and has had one injury after another without even playing AFL; do we wait 6 years and then delist???

McCulloch - Has had two years on the list.
Hawksley - Three.
Collier - Three.
Sheldon - Four, drafted as a bottom aged kid. Effectively three, but I'm sure you'll dig your heels in.

I was advocating an extra year, so four in most cases... yet you pick six because of your love of hyperbole to ridicule those who dare hold a different opinion to you.

You would've advocated getting rid of Rischitelli prior to this year, after all "he's not suddenly going to become a great player". Yes, he's only good, but those were your words. You would've advocated getting rid of Clark and Leuenberger. You would've advocated getting rid of McGrath and Brennan. But hey, you're not going to bother letting any of these considerations enter your mind so feel free to persist calling for the delisting of up to a quarter of our playing list over the next couple of years in the hope we get someone better in the draft.

 

[Panthera]

I'd love to know how many of our premiership players would've been on the list in '99 if the Pantheras of this world had their way.

That is crap whataboutblob!

We knew the 97-99 youngsters were good; they were just very inconsistent and never played well away from the Gabba.

These youngsters are simply not good enough

I'm not going to pretend that they are going to be guns when they are likely to be 24-30 list players at very best. You may want to but I don't see the point

 

[Balony_pony16]

McCulloch will stay on the list...he is a young ruckman who is starting to find good form in the ressies...we need to keep developing him for when charman finally leaves

 

[Panthera]

Because your great system seems to be to call for players' heads as if it's all done and dusted and no further insight provided. If people disagree with you they're "soft", "accepting mediocrity", or "help to hold us back". You're presenting your POV as facts and can't let any rationality enter it less it destablize your little world.



McCulloch - Has had two years on the list.
Hawksley - Three.
Collier - Three.
Sheldon - Four, drafted as a bottom aged kid. Effectively three, but I'm sure you'll dig your heels in.

I was advocating an extra year, so four in most cases... yet you pick six because of your love of hyperbole to ridicule those who dare hold a different opinion to you.

You would've advocated getting rid of Rischitelli prior to this year, after all "he's not suddenly going to become a great player". Yes, he's only good, but those were your words. You would've advocated getting rid of Clark and Leuenberger. You would've advocated getting rid of McGrath and Brennan. But hey, you're not going to bother letting any of these considerations enter your mind so feel free to persist calling for the delisting of up to a quarter of our playing list over the next couple of years in the hope we get someone better in the draft.

Look, I am a one eyed Lion fan and only want us back to the top of the ladder. If a player is not going to get us there, ^&%@ him off!

You're right in stating that I, like many, have been frustrated by players, including Rishcitelli, but never have I called for the heads of Brennan, Clark, Leuey or McGrath.

On a side note, the over-praising of Rischitelli is getting on my nerves - he has responded superbly after Voss tried to trade him and will most likely win our b&f ....but he is not a star midfielder in the ilk of a Ablett, a Goddard, a Pendlebury, a Cooney etc....he's not even on the level below in Bartel, Cross, Murphy, Watson - lets not get carried away with an improved player winning a b&f at a club who finishes bottom 4

Rischitelli is gone; so be it > I want our starting centre square combo next year to be Rich, Redden & Rockliff

 

[Doc Wieldon]

I'm a Victorian so have never had the opportunity to visit a training session... Quigs are you serious when you say they don't spend a significant amount of time on skills training? Does anyone else find that baffling? The Lions have possesed close to the worst skills in the comp for at least the last four years... if Voss and Co haven't cottoned on and tried something different to recitify this obvious deficiency then I'm very close to changing my opinion of the great man's coaching abilities. It's an absolute disgrace how poor our skills have become.

Collier and Hawksley have never shown anything other than the ability to shirk the contest, and make constant skill and decision errors. They're not quick, they don't go in and get the ball, they have no defensive pressure, and their skills are way below acceptable levels. I was all for giving them another shot in 2010... it's now basically season 2011, they're a year older, and both have shown nothing more than what we saw in 2009.

Others like Stiller, Proud, Austin and Sheldon have shown glimpes of ability and glimpes of an understanding of the game and game plan, and are all young enough to give another crack in 2011. Agree, unfortunately, we can't get rid of the whole team, so these players are given another opportunity.

Players like Clark, McGrath, Sherman and Risc all showed the same signs worthy of another crack and have developed into decent players.

For mine: Selwood, TJ, Brennan and Risc gone, delist Collier and Hawksley. Upgrade Beams.

There's just no way we'll be able to wriggle out of Fev. So i'm crossing my fingers and toes he finds the form he showed at Carlton, and our running players learn how to deliver it lace out to advantage.

 

[dlanod]

Look, I am a one eyed Lion fan and only want us back to the top of the ladder. If a player is not going to get us there, ^&%@ him off!

And I agree with this. You're just positioning your opinion as the only right one and belittling those who dare to disagree.

You're right in stating that I, like many, have been frustrated by players, including Rishcitelli, but never have I called for the heads of Brennan, Clark, Leuey or McGrath.

You may not have, but what I was saying was that if you applied your current ruler to the list fairly, they would have all been called for booting at various points over the last three years.

On a side note, the over-praising of Rischitelli is getting on my nerves - he has responded superbly after Voss tried to trade him and will most likely win our b&f ....but he is not a star midfielder in the ilk of a Ablett, a Goddard, a Pendlebury, a Cooney etc....he's not even on the level below in Bartel, Cross, Murphy, Watson - lets not get carried away with an improved player winning a b&f at a club who finishes bottom 4

Rischitelli is gone; so be it > I want our starting centre square combo next year to be Rich, Redden & Rockliff

Agreed (solid this year, below average prior. Good, not great) and agreed. There was a line up of a centre bounce in the Essendon game of Leuenberger, Rischitelli, Rich and Redden. Take out Rischitelli and that doesn't look a whole lot worse and they're all 22 or under. That's a potential good eight years of centre bounces there, at least.

 

[Panthera]

And I agree with this. You're just positioning your opinion as the only right one and belittling those who dare to disagree.



You may not have, but what I was saying was that if you applied your current ruler to the list fairly, they would have all been called for booting at various points over the last three years.



Agreed (solid this year, below average prior. Good, not great) and agreed. There was a line up of a centre bounce in the Essendon game of Leuenberger, Rischitelli, Rich and Redden. Take out Rischitelli and that doesn't look a whole lot worse and they're all 22 or under. That's a potential good eight years of centre bounces there, at least.

Glad we agree

 

[Hollow Knight]

A couple of points...

- You get the impression that Panthera wants us to dump every player who isn't in the "very good - elite" category. There just isn't enough of those players to go around.

- If we gain a reputation as a club who writes off most of our young players after just 2-3 years... who the hell will want to play for us?

 

[Quigley]

I'm a Victorian so have never had the opportunity to visit a training session... Quigs are you serious when you say they don't spend a significant amount of time on skills training? Does anyone else find that baffling? The Lions have possesed close to the worst skills in the comp for at least the last four years... if Voss and Co haven't cottoned on and tried something different to recitify this obvious deficiency then I'm very close to changing my opinion of the great man's coaching abilities. It's an absolute disgrace how poor our skills have become.

Collier and Hawksley have never shown anything other than the ability to shirk the contest, and make constant skill and decision errors. They're not quick, they don't go in and get the ball, they have no defensive pressure, and their skills are way below acceptable levels. I was all for giving them another shot in 2010... it's now basically season 2011, they're a year older, and both have shown nothing more than what we saw in 2009.

Others like Stiller, Proud, Austin and Sheldon have shown glimpes of ability and glimpes of an understanding of the game and game plan, and are all young enough to give another crack in 2011. Agree, unfortunately, we can't get rid of the whole team, so these players are given another opportunity.

Players like Clark, McGrath, Sherman and Risc all showed the same signs worthy of another crack and have developed into decent players.

For mine: Selwood, TJ, Brennan and Risc gone, delist Collier and Hawksley. Upgrade Beams.

There's just no way we'll be able to wriggle out of Fev. So i'm crossing my fingers and toes he finds the form he showed at Carlton, and our running players learn how to deliver it lace out to advantage.

Doc I live in Newcastle so I get to see even less trainings than you do (an occasional Swans one but that is no help for this discussion). I am relying on comments made by beausgirl and Mr Ripper who get along to a lot of sessions.

FWIW it seemed that Voss was implying on OTC the other night that they have changed things up in the last month or so and are doing more one on one work to improve the players' efficiencies with the ball. Not before time you would have to say.

 

[Panthera]

A couple of points...

- You get the impression that Panthera wants us to dump every player who isn't in the "very good - elite" category. There just isn't enough of those players to go around.

- If we gain a reputation as a club who writes off most of our young players after just 2-3 years... who the hell will want to play for us?

No, I want to dump those who have no chance of becoming very good - elite.

In 2001, argurably our 22nd best player won the Norm Smith Medal - my expectations are high and so should everyone else's be.

Otherwise, our team will continue to perform the way it currently does.

 

[LionMen]

We could put TJ on a much lower salary on a 1 or 2 year deal, still poseses kicking skill and could help out some of the younger players, doubt he would agree though. i think there will be a few rookie listed players delisted as there always seems to be a few each year.

 

[Axel.]

No thanks.

 

[choco123]

No, I want to dump those who have no chance of becoming very good - elite.

In 2001, argurably our 22nd best player won the Norm Smith Medal - my expectations are high and so should everyone else's be.

Otherwise, our team will continue to perform the way it currently does.

That's just unrealistic - surely you realise that the '01-'03 team was a once in a generation team - e.g. do you think that Shannon Byrnes is any chance of becoming 'very good - elite'? Of course not, but he's still an integral part of the Geelong set up. Same with Mooney.

 

[Panthera]

That's just unrealistic - surely you realise that the '01-'03 team was a once in a generation team - e.g. do you think that Shannon Byrnes is any chance of becoming 'very good - elite'? Of course not, but he's still an integral part of the Geelong set up. Same with Mooney.

So which generation are the Cats in now??? They're pretty good

Both Byrnes and Mooney are in the very good catergory at times and both could kick 5 goals and win the Norm Smith this year