Society/Culture The Gender Pay Gap

[kickazz]

Yet, here we are, 40 pages in, going around in circles, the amount time and emotional effort to keep the narrative to 'there's a gender pay gap', without the nuance, like it's an everyone's / whole of society's fault / problem, is staggering, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Yes. But without the discussion of all the ins and outs then it just comes down to a misused statistic. Which I think is the point you are kind of making anyway.

It is interesting that this particular gap is highlighted and pushed hard. There's many other ways to slice and dice society and look at the pay gap. Disability would be a good one to look at - particularly where the disability does not inhibit the job. Another really interesting one is height - I remember reading somewhere that if you exclude all men over a particular height then the gender pay gap becomes very minimal.

Then there is ethnicity (both in looks, behaviour and name), suburb you live in, school you went to, all of that stuff.

 

[Gralin]

Well we're getting into speculative territory then, yes just about everyone would agree there are roadblocks created by social norms or some may term that as discriminatory.

Either or, to speculate, one could well argue that social norms / discrimination are an exception rather than the rule.

Again, I can provide real life analogy of females in my workplace, like fitters and sparkies (read reportedly male dominated) that are paid the same as the blokes for the same role.

Nobody held a gun to their head and said 'you must work this male dominated role' it was all about freedom of choice, and nobody held a gun to the company's head and said 'you must employ this female and pay her discriminatory rates'.

I'm sure there's literally 1000's of similar analogous examples.

Yet, here we are, 40 pages in, going around in circles, the amount time and emotional effort to keep the narrative to 'there's a gender pay gap', without the nuance, like it's an everyone's / whole of society's fault / problem, is staggering, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

There is a gender pay gap yes?

The argument is whether it's justified or not

 

[RedStarUncle]

There is a gender pay gap yes?

The argument is whether it's justified or not

I guess... if the CAUSE of the gap is primarily a bias in social norms associated with parenting, and those social norms are something that we as a social collective don't actually want to change, then the pay gap IS justified.

And if there is an unjustified aspect of the pay gap associated with gender bias in recruiting or promoting, or erroneous assumptions about women to be able to work in certain roles, or any other reason... then we need statistics and evidence that is NOT INFLUENCED by the accepted bias above to help us evaluate where we're at and what needs to be done.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yes. But without the discussion of all the ins and outs then it just comes down to a misused statistic. Which I think is the point you are kind of making anyway.

Exactly, the point I'm making.

Same with the other 'minority' groups you've pointed in the rest of your post, like ethnic groups etc. Yet there isn't much talk about 'there's an ethnic pay gap' like ethnic groups make less money, well duh, they're a minority, among many other details as to the 'why'.

By and large, females make less money due to a multitude of reasons, discrimination is likely a very minuscule part of it. That is backed up because we have anti discrimination employment laws, of course we could go down a rabbit hole as to how fair those laws are.

Nonetheless the intent of those laws is to protect the employee, regardless of gender, race, disability, sexual orientation whatever has zero to do with them. The intent is whatever the pay for the role is, it can't be differed from person to person by discriminatory means by the employer. Same role, same pay.

 

[the_interloper]

Yes. But without the discussion of all the ins and outs then it just comes down to a misused statistic. Which I think is the point you are kind of making anyway.

It is interesting that this particular gap is highlighted and pushed hard. There's many other ways to slice and dice society and look at the pay gap. Disability would be a good one to look at - particularly where the disability does not inhibit the job. Another really interesting one is height - I remember reading somewhere that if you exclude all men over a particular height then the gender pay gap becomes very minimal.

Then there is ethnicity (both in looks, behaviour and name), suburb you live in, school you went to, all of that stuff.

Well it's got a great name and if you're imaginative enough it can suit a few popular narratives.

 

[Chief]

It is interesting that this particular gap is highlighted and pushed hard.

It's not difficult to see this as a way to improve the outcomes for the most people the quickest.

Unfortunately the people that rubbish this the most loudly also rubbish other measures to reduce inequality in our society. They wouldn't accept anything but "personal choices" as an explanation for anything.

 

[the_interloper]

You seldom hear women complain about a lack of representation in the bricklaying game...

I don't complain that that's not my profession either, I couldn't do that for a crust, the paper cuts I get are bad enough.

It's not difficult to see this as a way to improve the outcomes for the most people the quickest.

Unfortunately the people that rubbish this the most loudly also rubbish other measures to reduce inequality in our society. They wouldn't accept anything but "personal choices" as an explanation for anything.

I think it might make things harder to be honest. As has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread there's much more to the discussion than the one statistic, if you're leading with that as your main justification, well you look a bit silly in my opinion.

 

[Chief]

I think it might make things harder to be honest. As has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread there's much more to the discussion than the one statistic, if you're leading with that as your main justification, well you look a bit silly in my opinion.

The gender pay gap gets a lot of attention because it affects the most people the most obviously. This includes, say, the children of single mothers needing more flexible, safe work with a decent living wage.

Education inequality, slow wage growth, excessive corporate profit-taking, they are all aspects of inequality along with many others.

Unfortunately "you chose that" is what gets rolled out time and again as an explanation and a dismissal of concerns.

 

[the_interloper]

The gender pay gap gets a lot of attention because it affects the most people the most obviously. This includes, say, the children of single mothers needing more flexible, safe work with a decent living wage.

Education inequality, slow wage growth, excessive corporate profit-taking, they are all aspects of inequality along with many others.

Unfortunately "you chose that" is what gets rolled out time and again as an explanation and a dismissal of concerns.

Choice is a part of it of course but there are many issues around that. I mean nurses are underpaid in general (and more women do nursing of course) that's a ridiculously tough job that I'd avoid as much as I'd avoid bricklaying. And access to education as well for sure which is often a function of your socio-economic situation.

 

[Chief]

These things are political choices.

Education does not have to be a function of wealth.

Public nursing pay rates are decided by governments.

Instead it's hundreds of billions on submarines or whatever the hell AUKUS is about.

 

[ShanDog]

These things are political choices.

Education does not have to be a function of wealth.

Public nursing pay rates are decided by governments.

Instead it's hundreds of billions on submarines or whatever the hell AUKUS is about.

We're pretty privileged to pooh-pooh money spent on Defence, and wish it were spent elsewhere. Just putting that out there for thought.

I think government service jobs such as nursing and teaching are definitely underappreciated and underpaid. They require significant cost to study, long hours, difficult conditions and are critical to the health and wellbeing of the community; but, since they have also done a wonderful job of selling these careers as honourable and desirable, government gets away with paying the * all compared to what they deserve. It's a shitty situation.

 

[Chief]

We're pretty privileged to pooh-pooh money spent on Defence, and wish it were spent elsewhere. Just putting that out there for thought.

In the case of these subs, indications I've seen from industry and other commentators is that it is believed the billions to the US is for subs that will never be delivered.

Defence spending isn't the issue. Wasted money is.

 

[ShanDog]

In the case of these subs, indications I've seen from industry and other commentators is that it is believed the billions to the US is for subs that will never be delivered.

Defence spending isn't the issue. Wasted money is.

Wasted money if definitely worth railing against. Having said that, I've no idea how anyone can claim to accurately predict the outcome of this project.

 

[Seeds]

It's not so much wrong as sub-optimal. There is a critical point where it can become discouraging for the minority to enter that industry/company even if they are actually interested in the work - and there is also the cultural impact of "you can't be what you can't see" that might rule out swathes of boys / girls from even considering certain career paths, denying us potentially well matched people/jobs.

And the heavily biased environments whilst perhaps not problematic in and of themselves, have a higher correlation with discriminatory behaviour.

So what do you do?

If you are worried that a heavily gendered environment might have a risk of becoming discriminatory then surely imposing discriminatory policies is counterintuitive to fix a problem that you arent even sure is a problem in the first place. In fact such solutions are the problem.

Take the lack of men in teaching currently. Do you mandate that 30 percent of jobs at a school must be male? What happens if only 10 percent of job applicants are male. Then you end up with some women being discriminated against in employment. This in my view is unjust.

I think we should run information campaigns to encourage people of any sex that they can do any job or activity and should explore all options. But outside that and ensuring employment practises follow strict anti discriminatry rules and procedures then im not sure anything else should be done.

 

[ShanDog]

So what do you do?

If you are worried that a heavily gendered environment might have a risk of becoming discriminatory then surely imposing discriminatory policies is counterintuitive to fix a problem that you arent even sure is a problem in the first place. In fact such solutions are the problem.

Take the lack of men in teaching currently. Do you mandate that 30 percent of jobs at a school must be male? What happens if only 10 percent of job applicants are male. Then you end up with some women being discriminated against in employment. This in my view is unjust.

I think we should run information campaigns to encourage people of any sex that they can do any job or activity and should explore all options. But outside that and ensuring employment practises follow strict anti discriminatry rules and procedures then im not sure anything else should be done.

Society at large has been running that information campaign for decades now. The people who think women can't do XYZ job are few and far between (and probably close to retirement age). There's comparatively very little pressure put on men and women to go into particular fields. In fact, there's more pressure on the purported gatekeepers of different industries and fields of work to actively discriminate in their hiring policies to ensure their demographics hit some arbitrary targets.

Totally agree with your last point - as long as the laws that prevent discrimination are followed and enforced, we're doing everything we should as a society. Let the chips fall where they may from there.

Where it starts getting really weird though, is when given the objectively greater career options and earning protections that exist, a supposed gender pay gap is claimed that apparently requires even more draconian and discriminatory measures to remedy. It doesn't make much sense.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Let the chips fall where they may from there.

Nuh uh girlfriend!

No no, we must have a gap to complain about and then go to impractical measure fix em.

From there we can find something else to complain about, maybe the ethnic or disability pay gap?

 

[the_interloper]

Nuh uh girlfriend!

No no, we must have a gap to complain about and then go to impractical measure fix em.

From there we can find something else to complain about, maybe the ethnic or disability pay gap?

What about the talent pay gap, where more talented people get paid more money?

 

[Fadge]

What about the talent pay gap, where more talented people get paid more money?

Yep. There's a massive pay gap between different AFL players.

They're all doing the same job, surely they should all get the same salary?

 

[Seeds]

Yep. There's a massive pay gap between different AFL players.

They're all doing the same job, surely they should all get the same salary?

You may laugh about this but there are people in our society who want to eliminate the talent pay gap.

Ive been trying to get a pay rise for this worker who is doing an exceptional job. My division is offering to pay her extra salary. I went to her boss (who is in a different division) and his response flabbergasted me. Not only did he refuse but afterwards then scolded this women for being better then her fellow staff. He told her to do less work. She is now looking for a job elsewhere.

 

[Chief]

Not only did he refuse but afterwards then scolded this women for being better then her fellow staff. He told her to do less work. She is now looking for a job elsewhere.

Your boss is an idiot, unless this is not the whole story.

 

[burge13]

You may laugh about this but there are people in our society who want to eliminate the talent pay gap.

Ive been trying to get a pay rise for this worker who is doing an exceptional job. My division is offering to pay her extra salary. I went to her boss (who is in a different division) and his response flabbergasted me. Not only did he refuse but afterwards then scolded this women for being better then her fellow staff. He told her to do less work. She is now looking for a job elsewhere.

One of my first jobs I got told off daily for 'being on the internet too much'

My work was finished by lunch every day, it was very transactional so once it was done, that was it. I used to do sick people's work until I applied for a promotion and they gave it to a notoriously absent person rather than the person covering that work, so I stopped.

My boss at the time was so inept she told me to work slower rather than sort the actual issue of absenteeism, other people being slow/sick etc, me not getting the promotion. Some people really are too thick to exist in a workplace, let alone manage...

 

[Carringbush2010]

What about the talent pay gap, where more talented people get paid more money?

Ah the yes, the talent gap.

Let's use tradies as an example, compare the pair

Plumber, been in the job for 2 years does everything to a satisfactory standard, good employee.

Plumber, same company, been in the job 20 years, bit of a guru, knows all the tricks and does exceptional work, always very high standard. Saves the company money through better / less use of materials, earns the company repeat business because of high customer satisfaction.

Both get paid the same.

Ok, the experienced employee may get paid more because the company values that employee more, which is their right to.

This is where it gets murky though, if the above example is the 2 year plumber is a female and the 20 year plumber is a male, well then immediately it will get labelled as discriminatory because of gender, instead of the company pays one more because he's of more value to the company.

No matter how much the company explains the why, it will always be labeled as discriminatory.

Those who see a problem with gender pay gap will claim it as a veil to discriminate and claim bs when company claims their reasons for difference in pay.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You may laugh about this but there are people in our society who want to eliminate the talent pay gap.

Ive been trying to get a pay rise for this worker who is doing an exceptional job. My division is offering to pay her extra salary. I went to her boss (who is in a different division) and his response flabbergasted me. Not only did he refuse but afterwards then scolded this women for being better then her fellow staff. He told her to do less work. She is now looking for a job elsewhere.

Your boss is an idiot, unless this is not the whole story.

One of my first jobs I got told off daily for 'being on the internet too much'

My work was finished by lunch every day, it was very transactional so once it was done, that was it. I used to do sick people's work until I applied for a promotion and they gave it to a notoriously absent person rather than the person covering that work, so I stopped.

My boss at the time was so inept she told me to work slower rather than sort the actual issue of absenteeism, other people being slow/sick etc, me not getting the promotion. Some people really are too thick to exist in a workplace, let alone manage...

Then I'd suggest the lament should be directed at certain individuals / companies, rather than blame all and sundry society or it's a secret conspiracy by men folk to keep the gap in place.

 

[burge13]

Then I'd suggest the lament should be directed at certain individuals / companies, rather than blame all and sundry society or it's a secret conspiracy by men folk to keep the gap in place.

Not sure why I was tagged in this or what the point of it was relative to what I said

 

[Carringbush2010]

Not sure why I was tagged in this or what the point of it was relative to what I said

Because I was using your example to point out that there are different levels of productivity in the same roles.

I:e in your example you're of better value to the company, but if you were to get paid more and your absentee example is a female then you getting paid more would be labeled as discriminatory, rather than because you're of better value to the company.