Autopsy The Good (lol!) The Bad and the Beveridge.

[yebach]

I think you are taking an overly negative view. Melbourne were far from cruising last week, they were bringing their best and the difference wasn’t that great.

Things are nowhere near as bad as they seem. The biggest problem the club currently has is it’s lack of solidarity.

Time for so-called supporters to show some actual support and faith.

You remind me of Hiroko Onoda.
A Japanese soldier that kept fighting 29 years after WW2 was over, because he refused to believe the propoganda that Japan had surrendered.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Throw a blanket over those top 4 each and every time we play Melbourne. Granted they're probably the best 4 players on the Dees list, but none of them ever have down games against us.

Its probably because they are all incredibly proactive offensive weapons, who love nothing better than dictating terms to their opponents.

Our side tends to find these types a little too confronting.

 

[dogwatch]

I think that’s a a bit unfair.

He changed the way the game was played across 15/16, which the team that won 3 of the next 4 flags followed.

He re-built the team and changed the way we played and took us to another GF final and almost 2nd flag 5 years later.

He’s been poor the last 2 years, but prior to that he’s been a coach tactically. That’s not achievable only because you’re a great motivator.

Supporters shouldn’t erase some of his history as coach just because we’ve dropped off in recent years.

I'm not erasing history. I think he came in with good ideas in 2015, and over 2015-2016 he executed everything brilliantly. No surprise he was voted CotY by his peers in those two years.

But what evidence has there been of tactical agility and innovation since then?

I won't claim the "no Plan B" trope because that probably IS a bit harsh but the fact that so many people push that line is an indication that he's not seen as tactically adroit by a fair proportion of supporters.

I've quoted this many times before, but Bevo himself said all coaches have a shelf life. I'm struggling to remember the exact shelf life he suggested but it was either 5 or 6 years. It was a good call and for good reason. Some are geniuses and can do it for the long haul (like Sheedy) but most need to reflect, analyse and renew themselves and their tactical thinking. He had that freshness coming into 2015. But Bevo is now in his tenth year. Is it just a coincidence that - as other posters have been reflecting - Eade started with that same freshness, air of excitement and stunning results but ended up stale and roughly where Bevo is now after about 8 years?

Is that a fair judgement?
Well it's all just opinion, isn't it. I respect yours and the fact that you see it differently.

I am a naturally loyal type (how could you be a Bulldog supporter for all those years last century without being so?) and so I clung to the faith that Bevo would come good. Until 2022. Unfortunately it has been all downhill since then and finally last year I'd simply had enough and got off the bandwagon. Then, like others, I was gulled (against my better judgement and years of seeing it happen over and over) into some off-season hope. That was quickly shattered on Sunday. However as others have said it's just one round and there may have been some extenuating circumstances (like Melbourne's perceived advantage from its Round 0 game) so I'm prepared to give him another chance. Let's see how the coach, the assistants and the players respond this Sunday.

Then we can discuss again over a coffee on Monday.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

I'm not erasing history. I think he came in with good ideas in 2015, and over 2015-2016 he executed everything brilliantly. No surprise he was voted CotY by his peers in those two years.

But what evidence has there been of tactical agility and innovation since then?

I won't claim the "no Plan B" trope because that probably IS a bit harsh but the fact that so many people push that line is an indication that he's not seen as tactically adroit by a fair proportion of supporters.

I've quoted this many times before, but Bevo himself said all coaches have a shelf life. I'm struggling to remember the exact shelf life he suggested but it was either 5 or 6 years. It was a good call and for good reason. Some are geniuses and can do it for the long haul (like Sheedy) but most need to reflect, analyse and renew themselves and their tactical thinking. He had that freshness coming into 2015. But Bevo is now in his tenth year. Is it just a coincidence that - as other posters have been reflecting - Eade started with that same freshness, air of excitement and stunning results but ended up stale and roughly where Bevo is now after about 8 years?

Is that a fair judgement?
Well it's all just opinion, isn't it. I respect yours and the fact that you see it differently.

I am a naturally loyal type (how could you be a Bulldog supporter for all those years last century without being so?) and so I clung to the faith that Bevo would come good. Until 2022. Unfortunately it has been all downhill since then and finally last year I'd simply had enough and got off the bandwagon. Then, like others, I was gulled (against my better judgement and years of seeing it happen over and over) into some off-season hope. That was quickly shattered on Sunday. However as others have said it's just one round and there may have been some extenuating circumstances (like Melbourne's perceived advantage from its Round 0 game) so I'm prepared to give him another chance. Let's see how the coach, the assistants and the players respond this Sunday.

Then we can discuss again over a coffee on Monday.

our weapon in 15/16 was our contested poss diff

we've hardly dominated in that area since

 

[Mr. Walker]

I think you are taking an overly negative view. Melbourne were far from cruising last week, they were bringing their best and the difference wasn’t that great.

The difference maybe wasn't that great but against who. Melbourne has made the finals the last two years and has gone out in straight sets both times. They are not a great side - bottom of the eight status at best. If that's the bar we are aiming for I have a problem with that. The negative view some of us have is aggrevated by seeing no improvement from the last two years

 

[Proffessor]

That’s a risk you take, ask GWS, Pies, soon probably GC fans whether they’re happy they moved on from a mid coach 3 years past their used by date

All those teams have something in common.

The AFL desperately wants them to succeed, and does everything they can to assist them. Us not so much.

We had to wait 62 years to find someone capable navigating a path to a premiership, now people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year.

So many so-called supporters couldn't even wait till we seriously bottomed out before they turned on him.

It's actually shameful and embarrassing for us as a club.

 

[Hobdog]

If you are calling me a “so-called supporter” why have I paid up for a reserved seat and a social club member for the last 10 years, have paid for my kids to have a membership every year since birth. I attend most VFL games. Last week I took my daughter to the G and this week I will trek out to Ballarat with my son. Not sure what else I need to do to qualify as a real supporter.

Gives you more than enough licence to say whatever you like about the club as far as I’m concerned. Being an interstate social club member has meant that my payments have been donations more than anything else. I’ve been pretty negative in recent times. Folks may not agree with me or other people’s opinions but I’d hope that they’d respect and recognise my right to express my honest views and how I feel.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Hobdog]

All those teams have something in common.

The AFL desperately wants them to succeed, and does everything they can to assist them. Us not so much.

We had to wait 62 years to find someone capable navigating a path to a premiership, now people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year.

So many so-called supporters couldn't even wait till we seriously bottomed out before they turned on him.

It's actually shameful and embarrassing for us as a club.

I think you’ll find most pragmatic supporters are extremely grateful for what Luke did for us in 2016. This does not mean he is beyond reproach for the remainder of his career at the club. We want sustained success, not more flash in the pan periods that have characterised our history. If you honestly think what we’ve served up in the last two seasons is acceptable because Luke delivered a flag then I’m genuinely perplexed. Stop referring to people you know nothing about as ‘so-called supporters’ simply because they have the ‘audacity’ to express their desire to see improvement, remediation of long-standing issues on and off-field, and just some identity and fun injected back into Bulldogs football.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Norm De Guerre]

All those teams have something in common.

The AFL desperately wants them to succeed, and does everything they can to assist them. Us not so much.

We had to wait 62 years to find someone capable navigating a path to a premiership, now people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year.

So many so-called supporters couldn't even wait till we seriously bottomed out before they turned on him.

It's actually shameful and embarrassing for us as a club.

We should wait to "bottom out" before daring to criticise a coach just because he guided us to a premiership 7 years ago?

Can you please stop with the condescending "so-called supporters" trope as a way of elevating your supporting superiority over anybody with a counter view to yours.

You have no idea what or how much anybody in here has contributed to the club over the years.

 

[FoochPackage]

My favourite twist so far is now Cody, whose our only elite set shot, has finally joined the party and is now spraying em. Awesome

All those teams have something in common.

The AFL desperately wants them to succeed, and does everything they can to assist them. Us not so much.

We had to wait 62 years to find someone capable navigating a path to a premiership, now people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year.

So many so-called supporters couldn't even wait till we seriously bottomed out before they turned on him.

It's actually shameful and embarrassing for us as a club.

Have a spell mate. Ludicrous stuff

 

[stefoid]

I think that’s a a bit unfair.

He changed the way the game was played across 15/16, which the team that won 3 of the next 4 flags followed.

Dont agree that richmond copied us. I think they were encouraged by the "why not us?" philosophy and 100% team ethic we showed in 2016, and hardwick changed his attitude to a more "go out and have fun" cuddly bevo vibe.

But tactically on the field?
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...-the-richmond-revolution-20220716-p5b22n.html

 

[Proffessor]

I think you’ll find most pragmatic supporters are extremely grateful for what Luke did for us in 2016. This does not mean he is beyond reproach for the remainder of his career at the club. We want sustained success, not more flash in the pan periods that have characterised our history. If you honestly think what we’ve served up in the last two seasons is acceptable because Luke delivered a flag then I’m genuinely perplexed. Stop referring to people you know nothing about as ‘so-called supporters’ simply because they have the ‘audacity’ to express their desire to see improvement, remediation of long-standing issues on and off-field, and just some identity and fun injected back into Bulldogs football.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

The people I’m referring to aren’t just criticising him, which would fine but incessantly calling for his removal. Which isn’t.

It might be a little different if we had obviously fallen off a cliff and bottomed out which clearly we haven’t.

We were in a grand final in 2021, made finals in 2022, and only just missed out on finals last year. So it’s not as if we have been terrible.

If turning on him that quickly is a sign of appreciation, then I don’t think you should refer to it ‘extremely grateful’.

Because such gratitude doesn’t seem to hold much in the way of value.

 

[dogwatch]

All those teams have something in common.

The AFL desperately wants them to succeed, and does everything they can to assist them. Us not so much.

We had to wait 62 years to find someone capable navigating a path to a premiership, now people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year.

So many so-called supporters couldn't even wait till we seriously bottomed out before they turned on him.

It's actually shameful and embarrassing for us as a club.

I love the fact that you're fighting the good fight here against some pretty wide-ranging opposition, Proff.
Kudos for that.

However it's disingenuous to say "people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year". That's glossing over what has been building for many years, probably since about 2017 but certainly since the beginning of 2022. Most of us had stuck with him for the long haul despite gradually mounting evidence that the long term trend was southwards. You've been on here long enough and would have seen the steady increase in dissenting voices yourself. So it has never been just about 2023.

Do we have to wait until we've bottomed out before saying "not good enough"? I'd prefer to cast off the Bulldog mentality of last century and aim higher. We should expect and aim to be highly competitive every year. I want us to be exciting, innovative, imposing and aggressive. We were that in 2015 and 2016 and some of 2017 but apart from glimpses (eg finals 2021) we've gradually dropped off on all those fronts. And for the first match of 2024 the word I keep hearing is "uninspiring". Devoid of spark. Can't watch it any more. And so on.

We've certainly had the opportunity and the personnel. I don't see that we have more excuses than any other club.

Meanwhile the old arguments for and against Bevo are repetitive and not getting us anywhere.

For every "but we made two GFs" there's a "but we have never made the top four".​

For every "but we finally won a flag" there's a "but we finished 10th the very next year" and "that was eight years ago".​

And whether we have overachieved, underachieved or been about par with the list we've got is an argument nobody's going to win because there's no definitive and objective measure of the list quality.​

Bevo (and the whole club for that matter) needs to be judged on what he achieves year by year. The exploits of past years are gratefully acknowledged and applauded but they don't help us win games in 2024, make the top four or hoist the cup. Let's see how it goes. I'll very happily join the queue of contrite BF posters if he turns it around and we make top 4 this year.

Good on you for staying loyal and sticking to your guns, but not for trying to shame anyone who dares question whether the coach still has it or not.

 

[Sentinel]

You could argue that since round 20 last year we have actually bottomed out.

In that time, a win against 13th placed Richmond and against a Geelong side who had already started their preseason, and 4 losses including 2 against bottom 3 teams. That is the performance line of a bottom side.

 

[Dogs 13]

I love the fact that you're fighting the good fight here against some pretty wide-ranging opposition, Proff.
Kudos for that.

However it's disingenuous to say "people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year". That's glossing over what has been building for many years, probably since about 2017 but certainly since the beginning of 2022. Most of us had stuck with him for the long haul despite gradually mounting evidence that the long term trend was southwards. You've been on here long enough and would have seen the steady increase in dissenting voices yourself. So it has never been just about 2023.

Do we have to wait until we've bottomed out before saying "not good enough"? I'd prefer to cast off the Bulldog mentality of last century and aim higher. We should expect and aim to be highly competitive every year. I want us to be exciting, innovative, imposing and aggressive. We were that in 2015 and 2016 and some of 2017 but apart from glimpses (eg finals 2021) we've gradually dropped off on all those fronts. And for the first match of 2024 the word I keep hearing is "uninspiring". Devoid of spark. Can't watch it any more. And so on.

We've certainly had the opportunity and the personnel. I don't see that we have more excuses than any other club.

Meanwhile the old arguments for and against Bevo are repetitive and not getting us anywhere.

For every "but we made two GFs" there's a "but we have never made the top four".​

For every "but we finally won a flag" there's a "but we finished 10th the very next year" and "that was eight years ago".​

And whether we have overachieved, underachieved or been about par with the list we've got is an argument nobody's going to win because there's no definitive and objective measure of the list quality.​

Bevo (and the whole club for that matter) needs to be judged on what he achieves year by year. The exploits of past years are gratefully acknowledged and applauded but they don't help us win games in 2024, make the top four or hoist the cup. Let's see how it goes. I'll very happily join the queue of contrite BF posters if he turns it around and we make top 4 this year.

Good on you for staying loyal and sticking to your guns, but not for trying to shame anyone who dares question whether the coach still has it or not.

My loyalty is to the Western Bulldogs/FFC, not an individual. We owe so much to this individual, but that’s not an ongoing free pass. There’s an expiry date on most things, Luke pretty much said so himself.

 

[redmania]

I was there. 2005 and 2015 are the years I really fell back in love with watching the Dogs. Could it happen again in 2025?

Funny how a lot fans, like myself have written off this year.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Dont agree that richmond copied us. I think they were encouraged by the "why not us?" philosophy and 100% team ethic we showed in 2016, and hardwick changed his attitude to a more "go out and have fun" cuddly bevo vibe.

But tactically on the field?
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...-the-richmond-revolution-20220716-p5b22n.html

You can disagree if you like.

Tigers hyper pressure football around the contest and inside fwd 50 was developed on the back of what we were doing in 16. That’s what happened.

Feel free to use an article by a random Age journalist to determine a differing view on it.

As you say, they probably also took inspiration from Bevo turning the team/club around in such a short time.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I'm not erasing history. I think he came in with good ideas in 2015, and over 2015-2016 he executed everything brilliantly. No surprise he was voted CotY by his peers in those two years.

But what evidence has there been of tactical agility and innovation since then?

I won't claim the "no Plan B" trope because that probably IS a bit harsh but the fact that so many people push that line is an indication that he's not seen as tactically adroit by a fair proportion of supporters.

I've quoted this many times before, but Bevo himself said all coaches have a shelf life. I'm struggling to remember the exact shelf life he suggested but it was either 5 or 6 years. It was a good call and for good reason. Some are geniuses and can do it for the long haul (like Sheedy) but most need to reflect, analyse and renew themselves and their tactical thinking. He had that freshness coming into 2015. But Bevo is now in his tenth year. Is it just a coincidence that - as other posters have been reflecting - Eade started with that same freshness, air of excitement and stunning results but ended up stale and roughly where Bevo is now after about 8 years?

Is that a fair judgement?
Well it's all just opinion, isn't it. I respect yours and the fact that you see it differently.

I am a naturally loyal type (how could you be a Bulldog supporter for all those years last century without being so?) and so I clung to the faith that Bevo would come good. Until 2022. Unfortunately it has been all downhill since then and finally last year I'd simply had enough and got off the bandwagon. Then, like others, I was gulled (against my better judgement and years of seeing it happen over and over) into some off-season hope. That was quickly shattered on Sunday. However as others have said it's just one round and there may have been some extenuating circumstances (like Melbourne's perceived advantage from its Round 0 game) so I'm prepared to give him another chance. Let's see how the coach, the assistants and the players respond this Sunday.

Then we can discuss again over a coffee on Monday.

I’ve got no issue around his use by date. It’s looking like it’s here rolled around now, and change is needed.

But, to state he’s got an average footballing IQ, after changing how the game was played from 2015, and making 2 GF’s for 1 flag, I don’t understand how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Most Big Footy posters have an average footballing IQ.

I think there’s a real lack of understanding of how the games played and what goes in to coaching a football team, even just to get them on the field, let alone having the success he’s had takes an elite level of footballing intelligence.

If others have a different opinion, so be it.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Hands up if you are old enough to remember Rocket Eade taking over from Rohde in 2005?
If you are then you would remember the drastic game style change that occurred. I cannot remember a more noticeable change in the way a team played over the last 30 years.
Rocket was such a sharp football brain that he analysed our list and saw it was very fast and very skilful so he unleashed the shackles and told them to play on and handball at all costs. We got done by a dodgy umpiring decision to just miss finals but that year was exhilarating - I have never enjoyed a season more because we were playing to our strengths and as supporters we could see what they were trying to do.
Right now I am longing for that feeling watching the Dogs... we didn't win every game and actually missed finals but it was fantastic and a sign of things to come... ie. 3 prelims in a row...

Yes there is that, and then who remembers when Peter Rhode took over, or cheap as chips as he came to be known.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

Yes there is that, and then who remembers when Peter Rhode took over, or cheap as chips as he came to be known.

...up there with the worst periods in the club's history.
A reminder of what a really sh1t appointment looks like

 

[geoffjennings79]

Yes there is that, and then who remembers when Peter Rhode took over, or cheap as chips as he came to be known.

...up there with the worst periods in the club's history.
A reminder of what a really sh1t appointment looks like

You'd hope we're too professional now to go down the Rohde/McCartney path again...

 

[doggies ftw]

Just like drafting science coach selection has come a long way, I’m seeing a lot of people saying we’re likely to get worse with a new coach but is that really true? There is such a thorough selection process these days it’s pretty hard to get it badly wrong, I mean who was the last really bad new head coach?

Shaw & Noble in an absolute basket case club - Norths options were limited compared to what we would have on offer to take over this list. Teague which was a poor decision based on caretaker results which never tell a true story, Rutten I guess but these are all clubs known for having no idea how to select a coach in the modern game and cycling through them. Other than that you have to go back a decade or so, there’s been much more cases of successfully replacing a coach than teams going further backwards.

 

[perro_loco]

I think that’s a a bit unfair.

He changed the way the game was played across 15/16, which the team that won 3 of the next 4 flags followed.

He re-built the team and changed the way we played and took us to another GF final and almost 2nd flag 5 years later.

He’s been poor the last 2 years, but prior to that he’s been a great coach tactically. That’s not achievable only because you’re a great motivator.

Supporters shouldn’t erase some of his history as coach just because we’ve dropped off in recent years.

I think that one issue in AFL is that coaches are allowed to stay too long, unlike other coders, namely soccer. I think that if things don’t improve significantly over the next few weeks, Bevo has to go. I am being kind with my comments but I think that when a team is as listless and unskilled as we were last Sunday it is all due to poor coaching. Change is desperately needed.

 

[Proffessor]

I love the fact that you're fighting the good fight here against some pretty wide-ranging opposition, Proff.
Kudos for that.

However it's disingenuous to say "people want to toss him aside for just missing out on the finals last year". That's glossing over what has been building for many years, probably since about 2017 but certainly since the beginning of 2022. Most of us had stuck with him for the long haul despite gradually mounting evidence that the long term trend was southwards. You've been on here long enough and would have seen the steady increase in dissenting voices yourself. So it has never been just about 2023.

Do we have to wait until we've bottomed out before saying "not good enough"? I'd prefer to cast off the Bulldog mentality of last century and aim higher. We should expect and aim to be highly competitive every year. I want us to be exciting, innovative, imposing and aggressive. We were that in 2015 and 2016 and some of 2017 but apart from glimpses (eg finals 2021) we've gradually dropped off on all those fronts. And for the first match of 2024 the word I keep hearing is "uninspiring". Devoid of spark. Can't watch it any more. And so on.

We've certainly had the opportunity and the personnel. I don't see that we have more excuses than any other club.

Meanwhile the old arguments for and against Bevo are repetitive and not getting us anywhere.

For every "but we made two GFs" there's a "but we have never made the top four".​

For every "but we finally won a flag" there's a "but we finished 10th the very next year" and "that was eight years ago".​

And whether we have overachieved, underachieved or been about par with the list we've got is an argument nobody's going to win because there's no definitive and objective measure of the list quality.​

Bevo (and the whole club for that matter) needs to be judged on what he achieves year by year. The exploits of past years are gratefully acknowledged and applauded but they don't help us win games in 2024, make the top four or hoist the cup. Let's see how it goes. I'll very happily join the queue of contrite BF posters if he turns it around and we make top 4 this year.

Good on you for staying loyal and sticking to your guns, but not for trying to shame anyone who dares question whether the coach still has it or not.

I appreciate the considered response dogwatch.

My issue with so much of the Bevo criticism and calls for a coaching change are that they are anything but well considered.

I certainly don’t think Bevo should be immune from criticism, nor do I think he should have the job for life. I recognise his tenure will come to an end, I just don’t agree with the big rush to get there.

I recognise he has significant flaws and has made plenty of mistakes, particularly back in 2017, when I was probably more critical of his performance than most. I just don’t think people are currently giving enough consideration to various factors affecting the overall team performance beyond his control, nor giving him enough credit for the things he continues to do right.

Developing a great list is seemingly not a credited to him as an achievement but a justification for his removal.

It’s also interesting you talk about the ‘Bulldog mentality’ from last century that we supposedly need to cast off.

I think one of the most damaging beliefs that we need to move on from is thinking that what held us back in those days was a poor culture. It wasn’t. That belief was and continues to be a complete furphy.

Indeed , I think many of the club’s historical mistakes can be attributed to club leaders being seduced by ridiculous belief.

What typically held us back from winning more, was the far from level playing field. It was actually an amazing feat to do as well as we did and keep securing our place in the national competition considering our poor financial position. Some other wealthier clubs weren’t so lucky.

Billy Bean’s famous line about ‘Rich teams, poor teams 50ft of crap then us’ springs to mind.

Things are significantly better now, but still not entirely fair and still tilted against us. That lack of fairness is widely pervasive. So needs to be considered.

The focus on top four is also seriously overblown, and glosses over the fact that we don’t have a strong home ground advantage and compete against many teams that do. We also generally have a less than favourable draw. Such factors can make the difference in finishing positions in a tight competition.

I would argue that Bevo’s approach of getting to the finals with a strong team at the right time rather than investing too heavily on achieving a high ladder position is one of the key strategic differences that set him apart from some of his failed predecessors.

Finally, the club admin and supporter base turning on our most successful coach in the way many have, I think has been pretty poor and is arguably causing both reputational and cultural damage.

It might even make us a less desirable place for good future coaches and players.

I’m guess what I’m trying to say in a pretty long winded way is that I do think the recent anti-Bevo carry-on by some of our supporters might indeed be worthy of a modicum of shame.

 

[54Bulldog16]

AFL website:

Dogs' dodgy defending​

It was little wonder Melbourne took so many uncontested marks when you look at the Bulldogs' pressure rating. Their mark of 162 was the lowest for the club since 2018, with the 37 laid tackles their equal lowest since 2019.

Week 1, new season, just missed finals, we play the team we hate the most (well second most after GWS) and we serve crap up??????
Bevo is a fantastic coach, but he’s there to drive strategy, style, in game tactics and prob most important of all, motivation.
Whether it’s his or the players fault, the motivation and heart is just not there.
You can’t get rid of the players…..