The Great Pokie Conspiracy (Or How Hawthorn ruined the West)

[DemonTim]

It's worth reminding what some in this thread tried arguing from the start:
- due to changing their name the western Bulldogs own the western suburbs
- despite their name being hawthorn they cover the entire eastern suburbs
- despite actual distance measurements Ringwood is closer to hawthorn than Footscray
- everyone in the west is poor and unintelligent and thus addicted to pokies
- everyone from the east is basically Gillian McLachlan

 

[The_Wookie]

It's worth reminding what some in this thread tried arguing from the start:
- due to changing their name the western Bulldogs own the western suburbs
- despite their name being hawthorn they cover the entire eastern suburbs
- despite actual distance measurements Ringwood is closer to hawthorn than Footscray
- everyone in the west is poor and unintelligent and thus addicted to pokies
- everyone from the east is basically Gillian McLachlan

Also

• the east is leafy and prosperous
  
• the west is apparently a desert full of poor people
• the Great Eastern Road of Prosperity
• the Bulldogs club song is actually "slums of the west...."
• while several clubs operate pokies in the west, only Hawthorn's are the evil kind.

 

[DemonTim]

Also

• the east is leafy and prosperous
  
• the west is apparently a desert full of poor people
• the Great Eastern Road of Prosperity
• the Bulldogs club song is actually "slums of the west...."
• while several clubs operate pokies in the west, only Hawthorn's are the evil kind.

Also:
While hawthorn operate pokies in an area in the east that is struggling more than where they operate in the west, it doesn't matter because it's in the east. So even though they are statistically poorer and more disadvantaged, they're really not, because they're leafy and prosperous

 

[Gigantor]

And there we have it, people re-writing history already.

Geez, it didn't take long.

Yes, people most definitely did try and downplay the great disparity which exists in income levels between an are like Sunshine and an area like Hawthorn.

Yes, people most definitely did try and refute that lower income areas had a greater propensity to lose money on pokies than high income areas. and thus why I needed to quote the Australian Centre of Gambling Research:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-...kie-gambling-hits-poor-suburbs-harder/7574548

It gets even better, apparently the City of Brimbank, the city which lost the most money to pokies in the most recent figures, is under administration.

I also need to remind my Melbourne friends that Caroline Springs is on the very border of Brimbank. In what city? The City of Melton! It would be a battle between Melton and Brimbank as to who has the lowest average incomes in all of Melbourne - no wonder this is where Hawthorn wants to base the bulk of its pokies!

I sometimes wonder how well our Melbourne friends know their own city.

Sometimes it takes an out-of-towner to open your eyes to the reality within your own city.

 

[DemonTim]

And there we have it, people re-writing history already.

Geez, it didn't take long.

Yes, people most definitely did try and downplay the great disparity which exists in income levels between an are like Sunshine and an area like Hawthorn.

Yes, people most definitely did try and refute that lower income areas had a greater propensity to lose money on pokies than high income areas. and thus why I needed to quote the Australian Centre of Gambling Research:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-...kie-gambling-hits-poor-suburbs-harder/7574548

It gets even better, apparently the City of Brimbank, the city which lost the most money to pokies in the most recent figures, is under administration.

I also need to remind my Melbourne friends that Caroline Springs is on the very border of Brimbank. In what city? The City of Melton! It would be a battle between Melton and Brimbank as to who has the lowest average incomes in all of Melbourne - no wonder this is where Hawthorn wants to base the bulk of its pokies!

I sometimes wonder how well our Melbourne friends know their own city.

Sometimes it takes an out-of-towner to open your eyes to the reality within your own city.

1. You were asked for quotes. You didn't provide them
2. The rewriting of history (in your stupid words) was to mock you for doing it. Apparently even when you're mocked you can't even pick up on it
3. Caroline springs is equal 87th above suburbs such as glen Waverley, wheelers hill and Ringwood. All areas you claim are better off and in hawthorns zone. Caroline springs actually has above average income for Melbourne ($90 above average)
4. Melton has an average income of $1167 while below average it still ranks 161 out of 264. And ranks above boronia and dingley. Both of which you claim are in hawthorns area
5. I'm not sure why you refer to such vast areas. But the city of Brimbank has an average income of 1103. Melton has an average income for the city of Melton of $1361. they would rank fairly favourably in the suburb list
6. Dandenong, an area where hawthorn operates is one of the lowest ranking areas at 218. Yet because you draw class lines based on a compass you don't mention it.

You've been educated numerous times. You're a Google detective. And a very bad one at best. I mean you couldn't even run a basic Google search to figure out that hawthorn is closer to Footscray than it is the outer east you seem to associate it with

Can I ask, why do the western Bulldogs cover everywhere west because "they're name says so" but hawthorn don't just cover hawthorn?

 

[DemonTim]

Oh dear. And I just read the study. It's not even discussing east vs west. It specifically chose an "average income" area in the east. And specifically chose a "disadvantaged" area in the west. It literally looked at only two areas
That's a huge flaw in a study and gives no base for your argument. You'd need to compare like for like. Dandenong and noble park would be a great "disadvantaged" area in the "east". Both have higher rates of "disadvantage" than sunshine.

I'll head down there now, tell them that gigantor says they're leafy and prosperous and that there's no disadvantage in the east.

 

[Gigantor]

That Hawthorn operates in Dandenong adds to the stain which is Hawthorn, it doesn't diminish it.

There are 20kms of uninterrupted leafy prosperity from Hawthorn heading due East to Ringwood - these are the Eastern Suburbs I refer to, a larger, prosperous region, with Box Hill in the dead centre, and being the one forming part of the Australian Centre of Gambling Research's study.

Hawthorn does not operate pokies in its own backyard because such high income areas do not spend much money on pokies.

It cynically chooses to operate in the poorest parts of Melbourne, including the disadvantaged Western suburbs, because such lower income areas have a higher propensity to lose money on pokies. Hawthorn is profiting from the poorest people in Melbourne, even though it is domiciled in the richest part of Melbourne.

Brimbank loses the most money of any other council on pokies, a council now under administration. It is here we find Sunshine, the subject of the study, despite desperately poor economic conditions, loses 3.5 times what is lost in Box Hill, in Hawthorn's own backyard.

This is the stain which is Hawthorn.

People can choose to defend the stain which is Hawthorn, I choose to publicise it for what it is.

And Wookie thought it was such an important issue, he actually created the thread.

 

[DemonTim]

That Hawthorn operates in Dandenong adds to the stain which is Hawthorn, it doesn't diminish it.

There are 20kms of uninterrupted leafy prosperity from Hawthorn heading due East to Ringwood - these are the Eastern Suburbs I refer to, a larger, prosperous region, with Box Hill in the dead centre, and being the one forming part of the Australian Centre of Gambling Research's study.

Hawthorn does not operate pokies in its own backyard because such high income areas do not spend much money on pokies.

It cynically chooses to operate in the poorest parts of Melbourne, including the disadvantaged Western suburbs, because such lower income areas have a higher propensity to lose money on pokies. Hawthorn is profiting from the poorest people in Melbourne, even though it is domiciled in the richest part of Melbourne.

Brimbank loses the most money of any other council on pokies, a council now under administration. It is here we find Sunshine, the subject of the study, despite desperately poor economic conditions, loses 3.5 times what is lost in Box Hill, in Hawthorn's own backyard.

This is the stain which is Hawthorn.

People can choose to defend the stain which is Hawthorn, I choose to publicise it for what it is.

And Wookie thought it was such an important issue, he actually created the thread.

No you don't. You choose to cherry pick hawthorn, despite other clubs operating in the same manner, and operating in other disadvantaged areas. You've made your point as specifically about hawthorn and specifically about the west

Again. Hawthorn is closer to Footscray than it is Ringwood. Stop making incorrect points. Dandenong is also almost exactly the same distance from hawthorn as Ringwood

You cherry pick to try and make the point worse, yet ignore areas that are worse off, because it doesn't fit your weird east vs west agenda

And again. The study isn't able to be used in the way you're trying to use it. You're definitely deliberately disingenuous. You post like this on every thread you're in. It makes sense why you cop bans from entire boards

You have zero understanding of Melbourne and surrounds by the sound of it

Gambling advocates are saying sports betting apps will become much worse than pokies. I look forward to you advocating against the entire league.

 

[DemonTim]

It's also concerning that an afl run and funded club in a disadvantaged area, in the state with the biggest losses due to gambling, is enquiring about licences

 

[Gigantor]

Yes, it is all about Hawthorn being from the leafy, prosperous East, where high income earners do not lose money on pokies, having machines in the West, where low income earners DO lose money on pokies.

Yes, yes, that is it.

And the distance from Hawthorn to Sunshine and/or Caroline Springs is irrelevant.

This is why it takes an out-of-towner to open the eyes of Melburnians.

The Melbourne CBD is the great dividing line, a man-made obstruction, whereby those immediately to the West (Footscray and Sunshine) have far, far lower average incomes to those immediately to the East (Hawthorn, Kew, Camberwell, Surrey Hills, Box Hill, Blackburn, etc), and on it goes, due East, after the Yarra turns Northwards, you have a never-ending vista of leafy, prosperous Eastern suburbs, Hawthorn's natural constituency, its own backyard, but precisely where it cannot have pokies because the high income earners from these suburbs do not lose money on pokies.

That is why I view it as cynical that Hawthorn should cast its gaze across the other side of the city, far, far away from its natural constituency, from its own backyard, to profit from the most disadvantaged residents in Melbourne.

The corollary to all of this is that the one club which services this area, which changed its name to the Western Bulldogs, is the one club with the moral authority to run such operations in this area.

Hawthron has no such moral authority, and should cease its operations there forthwith.

 

[DemonTim]

Yes, it is all about Hawthorn being from the leafy, prosperous East, where high income earners do not lose money on pokies, having machines in the West, where low income earners DO lose money on pokies.

Yes, yes, that is it.

And the distance from Hawthorn to Sunshine and/or Caroline Springs is irrelevant.

This is why it takes an out-of-towner to open the eyes of Melburnians.

The Melbourne CBD is the great dividing line, a man-made obstruction, whereby those immediately to the West (Footscray and Sunshine) have far, far lower average incomes to those immediately to the East (Hawthorn, Kew, Camberwell, Surrey Hills, Box Hill, Blackburn, etc), and on it goes, due East, after the Yarra turns Northwards, you have a never-ending vista of leafy, prosperous Eastern suburbs, Hawthorn's natural constituency, its own backyard, but precisely where it cannot have pokies because the high income earners from these suburbs do not lose money on pokies.

That is why I view it as cynical that Hawthorn should cast its gaze across the other side of the city, far, far away from its natural constituency, from its own backyard, to profit from the most disadvantaged residents in Melbourne.

The corollary to all of this is that the one club which services this area, which changed its name to the Western Bulldogs, is the one club with the moral authority to run such operations in this area.

Hawthron has no such moral authority, and should cease its operations there forthwith.

Wait. So now you don't even have issue with machines in low income areas, it's just that its hawthorn that does

Yes. Yes. The leafy east. Where it's already been shown to you that th areas where hawthorn operates machines in the east are of lower income than the areas in the west.

So your entire veil has dropped. This is just an "I hate hawthorn" thread. It's nothing to do with disadvantaged people.

 

[DemonTim]

It takes an out of Towner to decide that if you're east of the city. No matter where. You're well off. Yes. I'd guess t would take an out of Towner to make things up

 

[Gigantor]

If machines are to operate anywhere, some form of community obligation should attach to them.

In the case of the Western suburbs, the Western Bulldogs is the one club which fits that bill the closest, and Hawthorn, fits that bill the least (by a considerable margin I might add).

And thus why it is Hawthorn, above all others, who should be the ones ceasing their pokie operations in the Western Suburbs.

 

[DemonTim]

If machines are to operate anywhere, some form of community obligation should attach to them.

In the case of the Western suburbs, the Western Bulldogs is the one club which fits that bill the closest, and Hawthorn, fits that bill the least (by a considerable margin I might add).

And thus why it is Hawthorn, above all others, who should be the ones ceasing their pokie operations in the Western Suburbs.

That position is untenable

If you have a moral issue with pokie machines. The operator does not matter. How would it change things I'd the Bulldogs purchased every one of these machines?

 

[DemonTim]

Hawks make more money from gaming at glen Waverley
Dogs have a venue in dromana/red hill. Yet no complaint
Most clubs (Essendon seem to be the only exception) operate venues well outside their area
Collingwood and Carlton both have venues in disadvantaged areas of the outer east

 

[Gigantor]

I put all the inner city clubs in a special category, for example, it's unrealistic to expect the MFC to focus its activities entirely on the tiny residential area of Jolimont.

Clubs like the bulldogs, Hawthorn, Essendon, St Kilda and Geelong are different - they have clearly identifiable areas spreading outwards from the inner city suburbs which are areas from which they draw a lot of support - to the present day - and they are large populous areas.

In fact, the area from which Hawthorn draws its support is easily the largest of any of the clubs - it goes on forever - and I seriously doubt the support Hawthorn has in Melton would represent anything more than the tiniest blip.

As for the Bulldogs' club in Dromana, which we might categorise as no man's land, I'd be happy for anyone to put up whatever information they have on it. Let's have a look at what we are talking about.

 

[DemonTim]

I put all the inner city clubs in a special category, for example, it's unrealistic to expect the MFC to focus its activities entirely on the tiny residential area of Jolimont.

Clubs like the bulldogs, Hawthorn, Essendon, St Kilda and Geelong are different - they have clearly identifiable areas spreading outwards from the inner city suburbs which are areas from which they draw a lot of support - to the present day - and they are large populous areas.

In fact, the area from which Hawthorn draws its support is easily the largest of any of the clubs - it goes on forever - and I seriously doubt the support Hawthorn has in Melton would represent anything more than the tiniest blip.

As for the Bulldogs' club in Dromana, which we might categorise as no man's land, I'd be happy for anyone to put up whatever information they have on it. Let's have a look at what we are talking about.

What information do you want? Dromana is very low on the list of average weekly income. The average age of residents is quite high. Sounds like exactly what you're sooking about

Again you reply without actually rebutting any points. You've somehow managed to decide on lines that don't exist (especially in this day and age) and decide it's only immoral to step out of their lines

Can you give us clear distinguishable lines for each club? What part of the west do Essendon get? How do Melbourne, Collingwood and Richmond share a space? Where does north melbournes area end and carltons begin?

Your post also just makes zero sense. Inner clubs are special but other clubs have set lines? But you only care when hawthorn goes outside set lines? Is Collingwood allowed in Ringwood and lilydale? Are Carlton allowed in the Yarra valley? Do you care that "your" club attempted to get licences in a much worse off area? What of brisbanes 200 machines? Promotion of sports betting by clubs? Why is your morality only applicable to hawthorn?

Probably best, next time, just go to they bay and start a thread called "I hate hawthorn, anything they do is immoral"

 

[The_Wookie]

I put all the inner city clubs in a special category, for example, it's unrealistic to expect the MFC to focus its activities entirely on the tiny residential area of Jolimont.

By your "Western Bulldogs" reasoning... Melbourne should be able to operate anywhere in the city of Greater Melbourne - gives them anywhere from Werribee to Frankston lol.

Clubs like the bulldogs, Hawthorn, Essendon, St Kilda and Geelong are different - they have clearly identifiable areas spreading outwards from the inner city suburbs which are areas from which they draw a lot of support - to the present day - and they are large populous areas.

Not since 90's. Clubs are national entities with national business interests.

In fact, the area from which Hawthorn draws its support is easily the largest of any of the clubs - it goes on forever - and I seriously doubt the support Hawthorn has in Melton would represent anything more than the tiniest blip.

You really think the majority of Hawthorns support comes from geography and not from its multiple premierships, as well as tasmania? What ignorance.

As for the Bulldogs' club in Dromana, which we might categorise as no man's land, I'd be happy for anyone to put up whatever information they have on it. Let's have a look at what we are talking about.

If the Bulldogs get anything west, surely Droman falls into St Kildas "anywhere south east" radiation. Sure as hell doesnt fall into a WEstern category of any kind. The Dogs literally took over an RSL club.

Why is your morality only applicable to hawthorn?
Probably best, next time, just go to they bay and start a thread called "I hate hawthorn, anything they do is immoral"

And people wonder how the thread got its title.

 

[Gigantor]

No - I've said over and over, there is a group of inner-city clubs who have always lived in each other's pockets, with minimal spill over space - it is correct to say that their support is spread far and wide.

That is in stark contrast to clubs such as:

• Western Bulldogs - have always had strong support through the Western Suburbs, and changed their name to recognise that fact
• St Kilda - have always had strong support South of Melbourne, and at times have even toyed with a name change to reflect this fact
• Hawthorn - have always had strong support throughout the Eastern suburbs, a region which stretches as far as the eye can see, and includes many of Melbourne's wealthier suburbs (but alas, these same suburbs do not like pokies)
• Essendon - have always had strong support NW of the city
• Geelong - self-explanatory

Of the five clubs above, with their clearly identifiable zones of support, it's clear that Hawthorn, domiciled in the leafy, prosperous Eastern suburbs, has made a cynical grab for cash from those who can least afford it by placing pokies in a region that is not only geographically on the opposite end of town, but in socio-economic terms, is about as far removed from Hawthorn's natural constituency as one can get.

Personally, I find that distasteful.

 

[DemonTim]

No - I've said over and over, there is a group of inner-city clubs who have always lived in each other's pockets, with minimal spill over space - it is correct to say that their support is spread far and wide.

That is in stark contrast to clubs such as:

• Western Bulldogs - have always had strong support through the Western Suburbs, and changed their name to recognise that fact
• St Kilda - have always had strong support South of Melbourne, and at times have even toyed with a name change to reflect this fact
• Hawthorn - have always had strong support throughout the Eastern suburbs, a region which stretches as far as the eye can see, and includes many of Melbourne's wealthier suburbs (but alas, these same suburbs do not like pokies)
• Essendon - have always had strong support NW of the city
• Geelong - self-explanatory

Of the five clubs above, with their clearly identifiable zones of support, it's clear that Hawthorn, domiciled in the leafy, prosperous Eastern suburbs, has made a cynical grab for cash from those who can least afford it by placing pokies in a region that is not only geographically on the opposite end of town, but in socio-economic terms, is about as far removed from Hawthorn's natural constituency as one can get.

Personally, I find that distasteful.

Yet you ran Away pretty quickly from other clubs doing it. You ONLY want to discuss hawthorn doing it. No one else and no other aspects. That's not a discussion on morality or the footy industry, it's a thinly veiled attempt at bagging out the Hawks for some unknown reason

1. Learn to quote
2. Learn to discuss in good faith. You are the poster boy for cognitive dissonance

From your posting history and your hatred of hawthorn, you may actually be James hird

 

[Art Corvelay]

Good to see Giganator posts in other sections the same way he did on HTB. Not sure why you guys are bothering - he's getting the responses he wants. He's not actually interested in a debate on the topic, he just wants to rile you up.

 

[telsor]

Yet you ran Away pretty quickly from other clubs doing it. You ONLY want to discuss hawthorn doing it. No one else and no other aspects. That's not a discussion on morality or the footy industry, it's a thinly veiled attempt at bagging out the Hawks for some unknown reason

1. Learn to quote
2. Learn to discuss in good faith. You are the poster boy for cognitive dissonance

From your posting history and your hatred of hawthorn, you may actually be James hird

Now that's just mean.


As for the rest, of course he's got cognative dissonance...He's a GWS supporter who thinks they're doing well on merit rather than the gifts the AFL keeps giving them to make them successful in order to rope people like him in.

 

[DemonTim]

Good to see Giganator posts in other sections the same way he did on HTB. Not sure why you guys are bothering - he's getting the responses he wants. He's not actually interested in a debate on the topic, he just wants to rile you up.

I don't even think it's that. I think he just lacks the intelligence to understand how a discussion and counter points work. Let's just hope he cops another ban. It obviously got to him

 

[Our Game]

But on this particular issue, we are not just talking business (noting that footy is a unique form of business), we are talking morals and ethics, and it strikes me as unethical that a wealthy club like Hawthorn, domiciled in the prosperous, leafy East, should profit from the misery of the poor, uneducated and downtrodden citizens of the West.

Morals and ethics have never paid the bills!BTW I now live in the North west and its by no means "downtrodden"
Been to Cairnlea,Point Cook, Sanctuary Lakes or Caroline Springs lately plus Footscray/ Yarraville is turning into the new Port Melb with hundreds of new high rise apartments already under construction with many more approved.
Dont forget there are some pretty run down second rate suburbs in the East as well.

 

[telsor]

Morals and ethics have never paid the bills!BTW I now live in the North west and its by no means "downtrodden"
Been to Cairnlea,Point Cook, Sanctuary Lakes or Caroline Springs lately plus Footscray/ Yarraville is turning into the new Port Melb with hundreds of new high rise apartments already under construction with many more approved.
Dont forget there are some pretty run down second rate suburbs in the East as well.

I really think Gigantor is projecting Sydney's west onto Melbourne...