The Great Pokie Conspiracy (Or How Hawthorn ruined the West)

[DemonTim]

I care so much about the people of the west that I'll insult their homes and families

You idiot, that stretch of Ballarat road, from Footscray to Deer park, is well and truly built up with apartments and shops littered all over.

It may not be as leafy as the eastern suburbs but it definitely ain't 3rd world like.

I hate Hawthorn too but your hatred is just making you post garbage.

Posted this exact thing. Apparently 3rd world countries also have high priced apartments according to him.

Can tell he's never been to Melbourne. And never been to a third world country.

 

[Gigantor]

I said you can occasionally find a suitable abode in even the most poverty stricken countries, but that alone does not change its station.

Ballarat Rd, from Footscray to Deer Park, is an absolute dump (on par with flat, ugly Melton actually). There are enough abandoned factories, boarded up shops, crumbling houses along this route to absolutely remind you of the 3rd world, no question.

Any Hawthorn supporter of even average means would not be caught dead having to reside in such locales.

 

[DemonTim]

I said you can occasionally find a suitable abode in even the most poverty stricken countries, but that alone does not change its station.

Ballarat Rd, from Footscray to Deer Park, is an absolute dump (on par with flat, ugly Melton actually). There are enough abandoned factories, boarded up shops, crumbling houses along this route to absolutely remind you of the 3rd world, no question.

Any Hawthorn supporter of even average means would not be caught dead having to reside in such locales.

Lol. Yeah. No Hawks fans live in the west

And how was your visit 20 years ago?

What was the *in point of reopening the thread? Same old garbage posts

 

[Gigantor]

Don't tell me that not only are people going into bat for Hawthorn's rapacity, they are now going to go into bat for all those Hawthorn fans living in Melton?

Will I need more than two hands to count them?

What's that? Ten machines per Hawthorn supporter?

 

[The_Wookie]

Id hoped that people would cool off for a day before coming back here. We're not overly fond of closing threads unless we really have to. I am however, beginning to regret it.

 

[Gigantor]

Well, it would appear that people have trouble posting without personal abuse.

You will find no such examples that can be credited to me, but as for those responding to me...you'd think they could rely more on their intellect rather than having to hurl personal abuse.

It's definitely very difficult to take anyone seriously who needs to rely on that form of posting.

But each to their own I guess.

 

[DemonTim]

Well, it would appear that people have trouble posting without personal abuse.

You will find no such examples that can be credited to me, but as for those responding to me...you'd think they could rely more on their intellect rather than having to hurl personal abuse.

It's definitely very difficult to take anyone seriously who needs to rely on that form of posting.

But each to their own I guess.

It's pointless using intellect with you. You don't read responses. And when you do you shift the goal posts.

Provide evidence for your claims. You asked everyone here when they last visited yet continually ignore when asked of you.

Provide evidence for the supporter make ups of your claims. You've just made a claim there's only a handful of Hawks in Melton. Prove it.

You've made claims that if the dogs owned it it wouldn't be "distasteful" because that would be giving back to the community. Show evidence that those susceptible and losing money on machines owned by hawthorn are football/bulldog fans.

You get personal attacks because you refuse to discuss a topic in an honest manner, if you're going to be disingenuous, you can expect people to play the man. It'd be like Barry hall throwing a tantrum for people getting physical on field with him.

 

[DemonTim]

Found the interactive footy survey. Weribee ranks in the Hawks top 20. From a 70,000 strong membership base seems a fair few Coke from the west. Their number 1 membership base is Croydon (which I've already discussed)
Clubs that have number 1 membership bases in the west:
essendon
North Melbourne (north has the major numbers west for Their figures)
West coast
Western Bulldogs

Sydney and Adelaide also have areas of the west in their top 5.

Dogs don't have Melton until 11. Would've the 11 ranked suburb for a smaller club be worth as much as a top 20 at one of the biggest?

Dogs actually seem to be the only club that's membership doesn't cover their gaming venue (dromana). Hawthorn most definitely does. Even Carlton and Collingwood being an hour from their "home" has their clubs in their spread

There you go. There's a base for your research

 

[Gigantor]

It's pointless using intellect with you. You don't read responses. And when you do you shift the goal posts.

Provide evidence for your claims. You asked everyone here when they last visited yet continually ignore when asked of you.

Provide evidence for the supporter make ups of your claims. You've just made a claim there's only a handful of Hawks in Melton. Prove it.

You've made claims that if the dogs owned it it wouldn't be "distasteful" because that would be giving back to the community. Show evidence that those susceptible and losing money on machines owned by hawthorn are football/bulldog fans.

You get personal attacks because you refuse to discuss a topic in an honest manner, if you're going to be disingenuous, you can expect people to play the man. It'd be like Barry hall throwing a tantrum for people getting physical on field with him.

Firstly, whatever beef you have, that does not excuse a complete lack of decorum on your part.

Secondly, I have put up a reference to the report by the Australian Centre of Gambling Research which dovetails very neatly into my views on this issue.

Here is an option, let us put forward our personal philosophies on how we would prefer the rules and regulations of pokies to operate across states and local councils.

Are people happy with open slather?

Are they happy that some states allow private operators to profit from pokies?

Is there a case for never allowing private operators to profit from pokies? Should there be a minimum amount of profits that must be transparently put back into the community? Should the operation of pokies be limited to not-for-profits with a clearcut community relationship.

Are there a set of principles which would make Hawthorn's operation in Melton untenable? (ultimately, that is where I am coming from)

Those arguing against me, should put forward their own starting premise: that any entity should be able to do what ever they want in this area.

That's fine, say so, and I will humbly express the personal opinion that I disagree.

I don't quite understand why people should get upset because I personally disagree with their opinion?

 

[Our Game]

A worthy first post to celebrate the re-opening of the thread.

You will make Doss so proud.

Let me close by saying that from Footscray to Deer Park - Ballarat Rd is an absolute dump - I stand by my description that it resembles the third world.

Hey Mate have you ever been to a "third world country"
That section of Ballarat Road would seem like Toorak compared to places like Soweto,Bandladesh,Rio Favelas and the slums of Mumbai to name a few real crapholes.

 

[Gigantor]

Found the interactive footy survey. Weribee ranks in the Hawks top 20. From a 70,000 strong membership base seems a fair few Coke from the west. Their number 1 membership base is Croydon (which I've already discussed)
Clubs that have number 1 membership bases in the west:
essendon
North Melbourne (north has the major numbers west for Their figures)
West coast
Western Bulldogs

Sydney and Adelaide also have areas of the west in their top 5.

Dogs don't have Melton until 11. Would've the 11 ranked suburb for a smaller club be worth as much as a top 20 at one of the biggest?

Dogs actually seem to be the only club that's membership doesn't cover their gaming venue (dromana). Hawthorn most definitely does. Even Carlton and Collingwood being an hour from their "home" has their clubs in their spread

There you go. There's a base for your research

There is West West, there is South-West (Werribee, Laverton), and there is North-West (Keilor, Niddrie, Strathmore).

I have always referred to the region due West of Melbourne as the Bulldogs' core area of support, from Footscray to Melton.

From what I gather above, Melton does not make Hawthorn's top 20 (but comes in 11th for the bulldogs, which would be close to the highest of any club).

Let us not pretend that Hawthorn set up shop in Melton (on the border with Brimbank), because they were interested in servicing their supporters.

That is a cynical view which I would refute outright.

 

[Gigantor]

Hey Mate have you ever been to a "third world country"
That section of Ballarat Road would seem like Toorak compared to places like Soweto,Bandladesh,Rio Favelas and the slums of Mumbai to name a few real crapholes.

I'm not familiar with Bandladesh.

 

[The_Wookie]

Firstly, whatever beef you have, that does not excuse a complete lack of decorum on your part.

Your posting isnt any better.

Secondly, I have put up a reference to the report by the Australian Centre of Gambling Research which dovetails very neatly into my views on this issue.

And other people have put up other information, which you dutifully ignore.

Are people happy with open slather?

As long as any business can get a pokie license, i see no reason an AFL club shouldnt.

Are they happy that some states allow private operators to profit from pokies?

I think you'll find that all states with pokies allow the operators to profit from them.

Is there a case for never allowing private operators to profit from pokies?

No. Thats the stupidest thing ive ever read on this forum.

Should there be a minimum amount of profits that must be transparently put back into the community?

There are already community service obligations that require pokie facilities to invest back into the community. The rules are however fairly lax and should be tightened.

Should the operation of pokies be limited to not-for-profits with a clearcut community relationship.

No.

Are there a set of principles which would make Hawthorn's operation in Melton untenable?

Not unless you restrict every business that has pokies without a base in the west. Where is Woolworths traditional base? Surely thats around Sydney somewhere.

(ultimately, that is where I am coming from)

No way, you don't say

Those arguing against me, should put forward their own starting premise: that any entity should be able to do what ever they want in this area.

We dont have to, its currently the law.

That's fine, say so, and I will humbly express the personal opinion that I disagree.

You dont humbly do anything and you are generally incredibly condescending with your posts.

I don't quite understand why people should get upset because I personally disagree with their opinion?

Because for the most part you arent disagreeing. You are just stating your own opinion over and over without adding or refuting anything of note.

 

[DemonTim]

Firstly, whatever beef you have, that does not excuse a complete lack of decorum on your part.

Secondly, I have put up a reference to the report by the Australian Centre of Gambling Research which dovetails very neatly into my views on this issue.

Here is an option, let us put forward our personal philosophies on how we would prefer the rules and regulations of pokies to operate across states and local councils.

Are people happy with open slather?

Are they happy that some states allow private operators to profit from pokies?

Is there a case for never allowing private operators to profit from pokies? Should there be a minimum amount of profits that must be transparently put back into the community? Should the operation of pokies be limited to not-for-profits with a clearcut community relationship.

Are there a set of principles which would make Hawthorn's operation in Melton untenable? (ultimately, that is where I am coming from)

Those arguing against me, should put forward their own starting premise: that any entity should be able to do what ever they want in this area.

That's fine, say so, and I will humbly express the personal opinion that I disagree.

I don't quite understand why people should get upset because I personally disagree with their opinion?

I notice you back away very quickly when asked for evidence. It's like watching someone go through the logical fallacy list and use them all.


I already put up my view on poker machines in general.

You put up a reference and then either didn't read it or very deliberately misconstrued the views (although the study wasn't conducted in a very honest manner. That's not what they wanted. They wanted shocking stats to force change)

There isn't open slather. It requires council approval

Unless somehow pokies become community owned then that is business. Obesity and alcohol are major concerns to society, yet they allow private offers to profit. Do you care that hawthorn makes money from alcohol sales?

No. Providing money from pokies to the community is a very very bad idea. It just allows for reason for private (and councils) operators to push for more venues/machines.

No. There is no set of principles dictating that hawthorn can't operate in Melton. No club follows that. All clubs have venues outside what you deem their area. It's disingenuous to try and claim that is your point

No one is upset that you disagree. I doubt anyone is upset, people (myself included) have seen you destroy boards and threads in the past. Spam posting, ignoring responses and condescension is why people are "upset". It seems to be the opposite. You spam posts over and over and continually tell people they're incorrect (yet fail to provide evidence), seems you can't handle people disagreeing

 

[DemonTim]

There is West West, there is South-West (Werribee, Laverton), and there is North-West (Keilor, Niddrie, Strathmore).

I have always referred to the region due West of Melbourne as the Bulldogs' core area of support, from Footscray to Melton.

From what I gather above, Melton does not make Hawthorn's top 20 (but comes in 11th for the bulldogs, which would be close to the highest of any club).

Let us not pretend that Hawthorn set up shop in Melton (on the border with Brimbank), because they were interested in servicing their supporters.

That is a cynical view which I would refute outright.

Ah. Moving the goal posts again.

The Bulldogs main support is the south west actually. It's the same location as north, and the location that most clubs have.

Melton is farther north than both Keillor and niddrie. You're even now redrawing the city lay out to try and fit your weird agenda

It's still strange that you ignore the Bulldogs being in dromana (at an rsl). Another point you couldn't invent a false narrative about.

 

[Gigantor]

No. Thats the stupidest thing ive ever read on this forum.

You think there is no case for disallowing for-profit entities to operate pokies?

Interesting.

I would have thought the exact opposite is true, that it is preferable to link the privilege of running pokies with a broader community based outcome, run by a not-for-profit which is based within the community.

You think that's stupid?

I'm genuinely surprised to hear that.

 

[Gigantor]

Ah. Moving the goal posts again.

The Bulldogs main support is the south west actually. It's the same location as north, and the location that most clubs have.

Melton is farther north than both Keillor and niddrie. You're even now redrawing the city lay out to try and fit your weird agenda

It's still strange that you ignore the Bulldogs being in dromana (at an rsl). Another point you couldn't invent a false narrative about.

Melton is on the main route heading West (actually called the Western Highway), and Keilor is on the main route heading North-West, and I think you'll find that all those suburbs I call North-West overwhelmingly support Essendon.

 

[DemonTim]

Melton is on the main route heading West (actually called the Western Highway), and Keilor is on the main route heading North-West, and I think you'll find that all those suburbs I call North-West overwhelmingly support Essendon.

So going farther north than something means you are no longer north because the western highway goes that way? You're now ignoring compass, which has been your entire standpoint, and are now saying "west west is the western highway. North north west south east is what you're talking about"

Logical fallacies galore.

 

[DemonTim]

You think there is no case for disallowing for-profit entities to operate pokies?

Interesting.

I would have thought the exact opposite is true, that it is preferable to link the privilege of running pokies with a broader community based outcome, run by a not-for-profit which is based within the community.

You think that's stupid?

I'm genuinely surprised to hear that.

It's also fantastic that you ask questions, people respond, you quote them, delete all of their responses and only answer the tiniest part (also ignoring the other responses given by myself)

As I said, your veil is very cheap and see through.

 

[Gigantor]

I notice you back away very quickly when asked for evidence. It's like watching someone go through the logical fallacy list and use them all.


I already put up my view on poker machines in general.

You put up a reference and then either didn't read it or very deliberately misconstrued the views (although the study wasn't conducted in a very honest manner. That's not what they wanted. They wanted shocking stats to force change)

There isn't open slather. It requires council approval

Unless somehow pokies become community owned then that is business. Obesity and alcohol are major concerns to society, yet they allow private offers to profit. Do you care that hawthorn makes money from alcohol sales?

No. Providing money from pokies to the community is a very very bad idea. It just allows for reason for private (and councils) operators to push for more venues/machines.

No. There is no set of principles dictating that hawthorn can't operate in Melton. No club follows that. All clubs have venues outside what you deem their area. It's disingenuous to try and claim that is your point

No one is upset that you disagree. I doubt anyone is upset, people (myself included) have seen you destroy boards and threads in the past. Spam posting, ignoring responses and condescension is why people are "upset". It seems to be the opposite. You spam posts over and over and continually tell people they're incorrect (yet fail to provide evidence), seems you can't handle people disagreeing

Evidence for a personal view on pokies?

Or evidence that Hawthorn would have absolutely minimal support in Melton and Sunshine? (I would have thought we would all just know that one intuitively).

Pokies can be differentiated from alcohol, mainly because it is an activity that has only become permissible in Victoria, in what? the last 20 years (as opposed to alcohol which goes back to the day dot).

The opportunity existed, and probably still exists, just, to tighten up on pokies.

The Commonwealth and States could join forces to:
- set a per capita cap, to be applied uniformly (so we don't end up with this ridiculous situation where the no. of pokies in the disadvantaged west outnumber the pokies in the Eastern suburbs by a factor of 8 to 3, which is just reprehensible in my view, personally, I can't understand why no one else on this board shares that view)
- government could legislate to ensure that for-profit entities cannot own and operate pokies, that they can only be operated by not-for-profits, and rules can be laid down as to the extent that pokie profits must be used within the community.

On Hawthorn operating in Melton - the per capita rule alone would have made it difficult in the first place, but that aside, how could Hawthorn make a genuine case of being able to provide a community benefit to a place like Melton?

There could be no greater cynical exercise.

 

[DemonTim]

Evidence for a personal view on pokies?

Or evidence that Hawthorn would have absolutely minimal support in Melton and Sunshine? (I would have thought we would all just know that one intuitively).

Pokies can be differentiated from alcohol, mainly because it is an activity that has only become permissible in Victoria, in what? the last 20 years (as opposed to alcohol which goes back to the day dot).

The opportunity existed, and probably still exists, just, to tighten up on pokies.

The Commonwealth and States could join forces to:
- set a per capita cap, to be applied uniformly (so we don't end up with this ridiculous situation where the no. of pokies in the disadvantaged west outnumber the pokies in the Eastern suburbs by a factor of 8 to 3, which is just reprehensible in my view, personally, I can't understand why no one else on this board shares that view)
- government could legislate to ensure that for-profit entities cannot own and operate pokies, that they can only be operated by not-for-profits, and rules can be laid down as to the extent that pokie profits must be used within the community.

On Hawthorn operating in Melton - the per capita rule alone would have made it difficult in the first place, but that aside, how could Hawthorn make a genuine case of being able to provide a community benefit to a place like Melton?

There could be no greater cynical exercise.

I gave you specifics of evidence. I gave you a list. Cut your garbage, if you can't read a very basic list, then you shouldn't be posting here.

Again, so it's not at all moral. Alcohol does more damage, but it's another factor you don't care about. You ONLY care about hawthorn operating in one place. That's your only care (it's not even their largest/most profitable venue). You don't care about other clubs doing it.

Stop with your 8 to 3 crap. It was based off two suburbs in the study, not the entire east vs the entire west.

How can any club offer a community benefit? Why does it have to be related to a supporter base? Wouldn't the community benefit be related to gamblers help, community activities, local footy etc? Or is your weird logic that because people support the dogs there (only a handful of Hawks in the west apparently) it's of benefit to them? So their footy club makes more money, that's the community benefit you want?

Your morality is non-existent

I'm done. This board will become HTB all over again, you joining threads, acknowledging no one and shouting the same thing over and over. Good job!

 

[DemonTim]

Also, since you're too thick to understand, saying your view is narrow and incorrectly focused does not mean anyone here is agreeing with gaming practices. Quit the condescending ******* garbage, and quit telling people what they think. You can barely put together your own thoughts coherently, stop trying to do it for others

Out. Was absolutely no point reopening, seen people banned on the main board for much less

 

[The_Wookie]

Evidence for a personal view on pokies?

How about evidence for a balanced view on pokies? Not this Hawthorn have pokies and its not fair that they do routine. Thats where the bullshit meter goes through the roof.

Or evidence that Hawthorn would have absolutely minimal support in Melton and Sunshine? (I would have thought we would all just know that one intuitively).

Do you in fact have support figures for Hawthorn in Melton and Sunshine? And no i dont mean intuitive rubbish.

Pokies can be differentiated from alcohol, mainly because it is an activity that has only become permissible in Victoria, in what? the last 20 years (as opposed to alcohol which goes back to the day dot).

Time is not a factor.

The opportunity existed, and probably still exists, just, to tighten up on pokies.

Its a lot harder to take something away once you've allowed it - especially if its been 20 years.

The Commonwealth and States could join forces to:

Gambling laws are a state issue. Not a Commonwealth one.

- set a per capita cap, to be applied uniformly (so we don't end up with this ridiculous situation where the no. of pokies in the disadvantaged west outnumber the pokies in the Eastern suburbs by a factor of 8 to 3, which is just reprehensible in my view, personally, I can't understand why no one else on this board shares that view)

Maybe tell the local councils that, they keep approving the developments that host them.

- government could legislate to ensure that for-profit entities cannot own and operate pokies, that they can only be operated by not-for-profits, and rules can be laid down as to the extent that pokie profits must be used within the community.

Well right there you've killed the RSL. And any number of lesser sporting clubs that operate pokies. I wonder if the Victorian Racing Club is a NFP.

On Hawthorn operating in Melton - the per capita rule alone would have made it difficult in the first place, but that aside, how could Hawthorn make a genuine case of being able to provide a community benefit to a place like Melton?

The same way any other business could provide a community benefit to Melton or anywhere else, but being made to invest its community benefits in the area the pokies funds come from instead of taking them back to Waverly. This should also apply to any club with pokies, not just Hawthorn.

There could be no greater cynical exercise.

melodramatic nonsense.

 

[Gigantor]

So going farther north than something means you are no longer north because the western highway goes that way? You're now ignoring compass, which has been your entire standpoint, and are now saying "west west is the western highway. North north west south east is what you're talking about"

Logical fallacies galore.

No, I've simply maintained that the bulldogs support follows the Western Highway relatively faithfully. I've never tried including places like Laverton in the South-West, or Keilor, which I view more as a North-Western suburb, and we know Essendon is the most supported club in that region anyway (so it's irrelevant to the discussion).

In any event, Melton is not a suburb as such, it is a satellite city. You would describe it as being West, and say, Sunbury, as being North-West. The further away from Melbourne, the broader becomes the concept of West, North-West, etc. In any event, the facility we are talking about is in Caroline Springs, just on the border with the City of Brimbank, not too far from Deer Park, both of which are as about West as West can be, both geographically and socio-economic.



If you draw a line NW from the Melbourne GPO, you'll find that Keilor is on that NW line, which would continue NW towards the vicinity of Diggers Rest.

Anyway, the Australian Centre for Gambling Research has little trouble deciding what contitutes the disadvantaged West, I suggest we too should have little trouble.

 

[Gigantor]

How about evidence for a balanced view on pokies? Not this Hawthorn have pokies and its not fair that they do routine. Thats where the bullshit meter goes through the roof.

Do you in fact have support figures for Hawthorn in Melton and Sunshine? And no i dont mean intuitive rubbish.

Time is not a factor.

Its a lot harder to take something away once you've allowed it - especially if its been 20 years.

Gambling laws are a state issue. Not a Commonwealth one.

Maybe tell the local councils that, they keep approving the developments that host them.

Well right there you've killed the RSL. And any number of lesser sporting clubs that operate pokies. I wonder if the Victorian Racing Club is a NFP.

The same way any other business could provide a community benefit to Melton or anywhere else, but being made to invest its community benefits in the area the pokies funds come from instead of taking them back to Waverly. This should also apply to any club with pokies, not just Hawthorn.

melodramatic nonsense.

Please, please Wookie, you are not going to seriously try and tell me that Melton and Sunshine are hotbeds for Hawthorn support?

Please.

Surely you have been around long enough to know that when it wants to, the Commonwealth can inject itself into state issues and force some uniformity down their throat. There are any number of hooks that would allow the Commonwealth in, and the High Court would back them almost every time.

I would have thought the RSLs are NFPs.

I still view Hawthorn's rapaciousness as a disgrace.

Despite having the whole of the Eastern suburbs all to themselves, a massive prosperous area, they have cynically set up a pokies operation in a disadvantaged area, with minimal Hawthorn support, where low income earners are likely to lose a greater percentage of their income than would happen back in Hawthorn, and with all the profits heading back to the other side of town, leaving a mess for local authorities.

I think it's a disgrace.