Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

[tubbis]

Anyone consider the ANU PLT program? Their Graduate Diploma of Legal Practice (upon completion) constitutes 50% of the credits required for their Masters in Legal Practice. Could be a nice piece of paper to have?

 

[Affidavit]

Can someone give me a run down of how this all works after we graduate. I know it's changed from articles. I've heard too many conflicting things about how to go about getting admitted that I'm completely lost now.

Do you do say Leo or College of law and then your admitted by completing them?
Do you need to work at a firm as well or instead?
If you have connections is it worth utilising them?

I just want to get admitted and move into starting my own business. Not as interested in being a lawyer anymore.

Cheers

 

[tubbis]

I once spoke with a lawyer who said there was a senior lawyer (a fossil) at his firm who hadn't actually completed a law degree but completed his articles. Would have been an interesting, steep learning curve IMO.

Can only speak about the QLD experience : Articles have been phased out in Queensland and now it's a requirement that you have a JD or LLB to become admitted.

The way it works in Queensland:

1. Finish your degree.
2. Complete PLT program (includes practical work experience component).
3. Get admitted.

If you have connections, it is definitely worth utilising them. As annoying as it is, the old adage of "who you know, not what you know" often rings true when securing jobs post-graduation.

 

[Affidavit]

Thanks for that mate can anyone confirm if it's the same for Vic?

I don't want to practice after getting admitted much to the disappointment of my father.

 

[BomberFletch31]

The way it works in Queensland:

1. Finish your degree.
2. Complete PLT program (includes practical work experience component).
3. Get admitted.

If you have connections, it is definitely worth utilising them. As annoying as it is, the old adage of "who you know, not what you know" often rings true when securing jobs post-graduation.

That's basically how it works in WA as well, but instead of "get admitted", it's more like "apply to become admitted". The Legal Practice Board is still going to grill potential practitioners ...

I don't want to practice after getting admitted much to the disappointment of my father.

If you don't want to practice, why bother getting admitted? Why bother even getting a Graduate Diploma of Legal Practice?

 

[Affidavit]

No point doing a Law Degree if you're not going to get admitted. I wanted to become a lawyer or start my own business. I'm more interested in business and things you learn in law school are used everyday in business as I've been told by more people than I can count. It's also something to fall back upon if things don't work out.

 

[Donners]

For any fairly recent graduates looking for a job in Victoria, there's a whole bunch of judge's associate positions up on careers.vic.gov.au which are closing in the next few days.

It's a pretty cushy job and it's a great way to make contacts and gain expereince.

 

[tubbis]

But

For any fairly recent graduates looking for a job in Victoria, there's a whole bunch of judge's associate positions up on careers.vic.gov.au which are closing in the next few days.

It's a pretty cushy job and it's a great way to make contacts and gain expereince.

But hella competitive. It's basically the Holy Grail of clerkships.

 

[Donners]

But hella competitive. It's basically the Holy Grail of clerkships.

Not really. I had six articles interviews without getting a position, and got an associate position with my first application. I was involved in recruitment at one point and while the number of applicants was fairly high, the quality wasn't - sure, almost all had law degrees and decent marks, but very few made the effort to write a decent application.

 

[tubbis]

Not really. I had six articles interviews without getting a position, and got an associate position with my first application. I was involved in recruitment at one point and while the number of applicants was fairly high, the quality wasn't - sure, almost all had law degrees and decent marks, but very few made the effort to write a decent application.

Times be a'changing perhaps? A fellow student with an impeccable GPA and outstanding extracurriculars (athletic, charitable, legal and otherwise) who successfully attained clerkships at 3 top tiers subsequently had a crack at associateships - to no avail (scored a couple of interviews). That said he was going for FCA, HCA and SCQLD so it would have been very competitive.

Needless to say our whole cohort was shocked.

I've heard on the grapevine that associateships are as much about personality matching (with judges) as they are about all the usual hoo-hah (grades, extracurriculars, skills etc.). I guess it makes sense given you'll be spending a year with the judge. Care to confirm/deny that from a recruitment perspective?

 

[Donners]

Times be a'changing perhaps? A fellow student with an impeccable GPA and outstanding extracurriculars (athletic, charitable, legal and otherwise) who successfully attained clerkships at 3 top tiers subsequently had a crack at associateships - to no avail (scored a couple of interviews). That said he was going for FCA, HCA and SCQLD so it would have been very competitive.

Needless to say our whole cohort was shocked.

I've heard on the grapevine that associateships are as much about personality matching (with judges) as they are about all the usual hoo-hah (grades, extracurriculars, skills etc.). I guess it makes sense given you'll be spending a year with the judge. Care to confirm/deny that from a recruitment perspective?

Fair enough, I can't speak for the higher courts, though I know they have higher standards. It's probably got harder here in recent years. It was primarily a secretarial job until fairly recently; there are still quite a few older associates hanging around who have no legal qualifications. Most nowadays are law graduates, but there's such a glut of them that it's a competitive marketplace.

Personality matching is a huge part of it where you are applying for a specific judge - if you're going to spend a lot of time in close contact, particularly on circuit, you need to be a good match. What they are looking for can vary wildly. Some don't want a law graduate at all (often there is little actual legal knowledge required), some want someone who will only be there for a year before moving on to practice, some want someone who will do complex research and writing, some want a long-term commitment.

That's part of what I meant by people not writing a decent application - most clearly knew nothing about the judge they were applying for.

 

[the harry]

Really? I didn't find it that challenging. Tedious, absolutely, and poorly-run - one lecturer disappeared mid-way through a semester and work was about six weeks late in being marked - but not too demanding. I only did it part-time, and did all my work during downtime at my job.

Sorry for late reply, but it would be a mountain of effort to do it properly. Not challenging in terms of difficulty, but if you did all the readings and everything properly, it would be such a drain.

By about week 4 though everyone realises that it's easier to just do the minimum for the submissions though.

 

[QS]

How did everyone do on their exams? I had 4. Was much better prepared this year.

 

[Smell The Glove]

Reading a thread about articles and law exams........thank god I'm qualified and employed and no longer have to go either again.

 

[LouisCK]

What is everyone's opinion on someone who has completed an LLB calling themselves a qualified lawyer?

Shits me to tears, and imo is inaccurate.

 

[slashin_velvet]

What is everyone's opinion on someone who has completed an LLB calling themselves a qualified lawyer?

Shits me to tears, and imo is inaccurate.

If they dont have the experience required to be qualified...then they are lying.

 

[Smell The Glove]

What is everyone's opinion on someone who has completed an LLB calling themselves a qualified lawyer?

Shits me to tears, and imo is inaccurate.

Anyone who has not been admitted by the Supreme Court of their state/territory is not entitled to call themselves a lawyer.

Just as any lawyer who does not hold a current practicing certificate (at least here in Victoria) is not entitled to call themselves a legal practitioner.

A law degree is a piece of paper.

 

[LouisCK]

Yeah its just a common thing in my line of work (public service). I worked in a legal related area, and am studying law myself, but a few of the people I've come in contact with bignote themselves with their completed degree (which, in my experience so far, is a degree in passing law exams and nothing more).

 

[Smell The Glove]

Yeah its just a common thing in my line of work (public service). I worked in a legal related area, and am studying law myself, but a few of the people I've come in contact with bignote themselves with their completed degree (which, in my experience so far, is a degree in passing law exams and nothing more).

Trust me, most actual lawyers don't even bother mentioning the fact, particularly if they don't work as a solicitor per se.

TBH, I can't even remember the exact date I was even admitted.

 

[LouisCK]

I'm not interested in being a lawyer, that is the main thing I've learned during my law degree.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I'm not interested in being a lawyer, that is the main thing I've learned during my law degree.

Smart move. Keep your dignity. However, you are empowered enough to fight the bastards now.

Every single person on the planet should get a law degree. It will pay for itself many times over.

 

[Smell The Glove]

I'm not interested in being a lawyer, that is the main thing I've learned during my law degree.

Why not? A law degree by itself is practically just a glorified arts degree.

Even if you don't want to practice, better to demonstrate to potential employers you are capable of following it through by going through the process.

And you never know where you end up. A couple of years in the public service and you may very well be looking for an escape route into private industry.

 

[Impunity!]

Smart move. Keep your dignity.

I keep my dignity in the same bank vault that holds my large sums of cash.

 

[Smell The Glove]

I keep my dignity in the same bank vault that holds my large sums of cash.

Sadly, most lawyers' dignity depreciates significantly in value once they enter the profession.

Much like a new car's value depreciates as soon as it is driven off the lot.

 

[LouisCK]

Why not? A law degree by itself is practically just a glorified arts degree.

Even if you don't want to practice, better to demonstrate to potential employers you are capable of following it through by going through the process.

And you never know where you end up. A couple of years in the public service and you may very well be looking for an escape route into private industry.

I escaped from private industry (finance) to the public service. Stuff working unpaid overtime for a joke. Much happier with my work/life balance (and my remuneration) now.