Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

[watermelonslice]

A subject is being taught at Adelaide over one week midway through semester 2 called Legal Issues in Sport. It is being taught by a lecturer flying over from the Univeristy of Melbourne called Mr Hayden Opie.

Has anyone here been taught by this lecturer and/or done this particular subject?

If so what was it/he like and what was the assessment structure like if you remember? Would greatly appreciate someones feedback.

A friend of mine had him for Corps for a whole semester. He's one of those lecturers with so much knowledge inside his head that there's just never enough time for him to teach you all he knows. I think he's quite engaging as a lecturer, but he had tendencies to go off on a tangent and then fall behind on the class schedule. I know of people who hated that he never stuck to the schedule but it varies according to the student, I guess. I can't comment much on the subject though.

 

[Hill2Pav]

I have a Masters and a degree and am looking at doing a LLB externally through CDU in Darwin. I am trying to decide if I should go through essentially 5-6 years of study again!

 

[BORK]

A friend of mine had him for Corps for a whole semester. He's one of those lecturers with so much knowledge inside his head that there's just never enough time for him to teach you all he knows. I think he's quite engaging as a lecturer, but he had tendencies to go off on a tangent and then fall behind on the class schedule. I know of people who hated that he never stuck to the schedule but it varies according to the student, I guess. I can't comment much on the subject though.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[BORK]

I have a Masters and a degree and am looking at doing a LLB externally through CDU in Darwin. I am trying to decide if I should go through essentially 5-6 years of study again!

I feel you would see greater future benefits by going on campus part time at a more reputable University.

 

[Hill2Pav]

I feel you would see greater future benefits by going on campus part time at a more reputable University.

I am out of the country for about 8 months of the year for business, so cannot do part time uni study; its the reason why I did my Degree and Masters fully externally.

Also at my age and stage of my career, the university I received my LLB from means nothing in comparison to having the actually LLB; i.e. I am not out to impress any potential employers based upon the university I recived my LLB at.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Any other ANU law alumni in here?

 

[DTRAIN87]

I feel you would see greater future benefits by going on campus part time at a more reputable University.

Mate CDU is the top external Law Program in Australia by a country mile and the days of it mattering where you go to uni are over. Guy I met through a friend who goes to Melbourne snagged a Grad Position at a highly recognised Law Firm and went to UNE/VU.

 

[jonoman89]

the days of it mattering where you go to uni are over

Could not be any further from the truth. I was in a conversation with a person working at Allens the other month. I was asked where i was studying and when i said Monash they s******ed. Then of course the "..i graduated from Melbourne..." line after it.

If you don't get a degree from a sandstone university you may very well be looked down upon.

Elitism is well and truly alive in the legal industry. It's getting better, but it's still very prominent in certain circles.

Nepotism too.

I have heard the medical industry is much the same.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Could not be any further from the truth. I was in a conversation with a person working at Allens the other month. I was asked where i was studying and when i said Monash they s******ed. Then of course the "..i graduated from Melbourne..." line after it.

If you don't get a degree from a sandstone university you may very well be looked down upon.

Elitism is well and truly alive in the legal industry. It's getting better, but it's still very prominent in certain circles.

Nepotism too.

Pffttttt ANU >> Melbourne

I have heard the medical industry is much the same.

It is.

Certain hospitals align themselves to certain University Graduates - because of their 'superior knowledge' and the name associated with the University.

eg. Alfred Hospital - Monash University.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Can anyone recommend any decent Australian based correspondence law degrees?

Thanks.

The following universities offer distance based LLB (Graduate Entry Law).

Southern Cross University (NSW)

Queensland University of Technology

Central Queensland University

University of New England (NSW)

Charles Darwin University (SA/NT)

Macquarie University (NSW)

Deakin University (Vic)

 

[Hill2Pav]

The following universities offer distance based LLB (Graduate Entry Law).

Southern Cross University (NSW)

Queensland University of Technology

Central Queensland University

University of New England (NSW)

Charles Darwin University (SA/NT)

Macquarie University (NSW)

Deakin University (Vic)

I've had a look at some of the other gradute Distance LLB's, Maquarie only offers their core units externally and from what I can see you have to do campus attendence for the electives.

I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who has done a graduate LLB externally through a uni in Australia.

 

[Teffy]

The following universities offer distance based LLB (Graduate Entry Law).

Southern Cross University (NSW)

Queensland University of Technology

Central Queensland University

University of New England (NSW)

Charles Darwin University (SA/NT)

Macquarie University (NSW)

Deakin University (Vic)

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[Affidavit]

Who you know > where you did your degree

 

[DTRAIN87]

Could not be any further from the truth. I was in a conversation with a person working at Allens the other month. I was asked where i was studying and when i said Monash they s******ed. Then of course the "..i graduated from Melbourne..." line after it.

If you don't get a degree from a sandstone university you may very well be looked down upon.

Elitism is well and truly alive in the legal industry. It's getting better, but it's still very prominent in certain circles.

Nepotism too.

I have heard the medical industry is much the same.

LOL this is the biggest load of junk ever. Hospitals take Doctors from whereever they can get them because of the mass shortage in the Industry. Needless to say with medicinethe criteria that has to be met is so stringent that it is identical whereever you go. A very highly regarded surgeon I know went to James Cook to study and is now highly in demand because his skills are superio.

Back to the law bit, I can assure you that the progressive firms in the industry will take graduates on merit regardless of where they have come from. The course is the same at Monash, Deakin, ANU etc. Some schools have a reputation for certain things over others and this is what makes the contention you have to go to a sandstone uni useless. An associate of mine through my sports club who runs a corporate firm has said that the prime candidates for him come out of Deakin because they have a superior Commercial Law program that can be taken in depth, where Monash is slightly behind and Melbourne he says forget it because they need a lot of training due to the JD program.

Elitism might be present in certain circles, however it won't be long till it is dead when the boomers retire and are no longer full of a generation where Melbourne was the sole school. There have already been a number of cases I have read this year where the representation came from not the traditional law firms and used excellent people to defeat these a grade lawyers apparently from the big firms. If you want to check this out look at S&G's bunisess model and recruiting.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Who you know > where you did your degree

Exactly. Guy I know with pass average got job because year before's candidate knew him.

 

[checkraiseulite]

LOL this is the biggest load of junk ever. Hospitals take Doctors from whereever they can get them because of the mass shortage in the Industry. Needless to say with medicinethe criteria that has to be met is so stringent that it is identical whereever you go. A very highly regarded surgeon I know went to James Cook to study and is now highly in demand because his skills are superio.

Back to the law bit, I can assure you that the progressive firms in the industry will take graduates on merit regardless of where they have come from. The course is the same at Monash, Deakin, ANU etc. Some schools have a reputation for certain things over others and this is what makes the contention you have to go to a sandstone uni useless. An associate of mine through my sports club who runs a corporate firm has said that the prime candidates for him come out of Deakin because they have a superior Commercial Law program that can be taken in depth, where Monash is slightly behind and Melbourne he says forget it because they need a lot of training due to the JD program.

Elitism might be present in certain circles, however it won't be long till it is dead when the boomers retire and are no longer full of a generation where Melbourne was the sole school. There have already been a number of cases I have read this year where the representation came from not the traditional law firms and used excellent people to defeat these a grade lawyers apparently from the big firms. If you want to check this out look at S&G's bunisess model and recruiting.

Firstly, Slater & Gordon is a joke. Good luck if you want to try and get a job there and then decide it's not for you .

So, we've established that over a sample of two, an old dude from Allens and your mate down at the sports club, it may or may not matter which law school you went to.

I'm from Deakin, and I can assure you there is no 'commercial' or 'practical' focus to the degree. It's just marketing bullshit designed to compensate for a second rate degree. Seems like people are actually lapping it up in spades though.

If anything though, I think where you went to law school is going to become more important as the pool of eligible grads increases, and firms are running leaner & more efficient business models.

Currently what I'd say is this, while not determinative, it's definitely a factor in the selection process. I know people from Deakin at Freehills & Blakes, but these are definitely the exception rather than the norm.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Firstly, Slater & Gordon is a joke. Good luck if you want to try and get a job there and then decide it's not for you .

So, we've established that over a sample of two, an old dude from Allens and your mate down at the sports club, it may or may not matter which law school you went to.

I'm from Deakin, and I can assure you there is no 'commercial' or 'practical' focus to the degree. It's just marketing bullshit designed to compensate for a second rate degree. Seems like people are actually lapping it up in spades though.

If anything though, I think where you went to law school is going to become more important as the pool of eligible grads increases, and firms are running leaner & more efficient business models.

Currently what I'd say is this, while not determinative, it's definitely a factor in the selection process. I know people from Deakin at Freehills & Blakes, but these are definitely the exception rather than the norm.

Yeah Deakin's degree focusing on commercial law is simply marketing ploys. Then explain to me why they offer more specialised business law units than any of the other unis in Melbourne and a large proportion of their lecturers were practicing in this area before moving to academia? Also why is it known that you have a greater RANGE Of comm law units to choose than anywhere else? In your eyes it might be seen as marketing crap but the reality is that it is the university to go if you if you want to demonstrate a business focus. Elective choices can really help your job and career outcomes.

In regards to your final point, this is absolutely ludicrous as it goes against the principals of HR and business practice. Firms will take the best candidate for the position based on more than just grades and school. Factors such as work experience other qualifications such as a relevant graduate certificate/diploma personal abilities will all come into it and play and be an even more significant role then marks. If I was an HR employee for a firm, do you seriously think I would take a person from Melbourne over a person from Central Queensland with same mark but extensive experience and a grad certificvte in Business Law just because they went to Melbourne? It would cost money to train the Melbourne grad in basic things (plus substantial time time) where as the QLD grad could just walk in and provide value to the firm immediately and not need $$$ spent on training.

Deakin degrees are not second rate by any means. To pass law at any university, the standard is significantly higher then for nearly any other degree. Further, Deakin is now considered a strong option as not as many year 12 graduates are willing to go to Melbourne due to their wonderful model. If you think Deakin is second rate, then I suggest you look to their education programs and nursing programs to see how they kick the butts of all other universities in Victoria and Aus. In fact an Education academic is challenging this theory on law as we speak to the anger of law faculties to discount the fact that degrees are supposedly second rate from certain institutions. Why? Because it will destroy the elitist bullshit even further than it already has been. I have no desire to work in a hotshot law firm and I think I would be content working for the Gov, myself or even joining the police.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Yeah Deakin's degree focusing on commercial law is simply marketing ploys. Then explain to me why they offer more specialised business law units than any of the other unis in Melbourne and a large proportion of their lecturers were practicing in this area before moving to academia? Also why is it known that you have a greater RANGE Of comm law units to choose than anywhere else? In your eyes it might be seen as marketing crap but the reality is that it is the university to go if you if you want to demonstrate a business focus. Elective choices can really help your job and career outcomes.

In regards to your final point, this is absolutely ludicrous as it goes against the principals of HR and business practice. Firms will take the best candidate for the position based on more than just grades and school. Factors such as work experience other qualifications such as a relevant graduate certificate/diploma personal abilities will all come into it and play and be an even more significant role then marks. If I was an HR employee for a firm, do you seriously think I would take a person from Melbourne over a person from Central Queensland with same mark but extensive experience and a grad certificvte in Business Law just because they went to Melbourne? It would cost money to train the Melbourne grad in basic things (plus substantial time time) where as the QLD grad could just walk in and provide value to the firm immediately and not need $$$ spent on training.

Deakin degrees are not second rate by any means. To pass law at any university, the standard is significantly higher then for nearly any other degree. Further, Deakin is now considered a strong option as not as many year 12 graduates are willing to go to Melbourne due to their wonderful model. If you think Deakin is second rate, then I suggest you look to their education programs and nursing programs to see how they kick the butts of all other universities in Victoria and Aus. In fact an Education academic is challenging this theory on law as we speak to the anger of law faculties to discount the fact that degrees are supposedly second rate from certain institutions. Why? Because it will destroy the elitist bullshit even further than it already has been. I have no desire to work in a hotshot law firm and I think I would be content working for the Gov, myself or even joining the police.

Specialised business units? International Commercial Law, Chinese Commercial Law? Indian Commercial Law? (All designed so they can flog their overpriced study tours?) I've been trying to banking and finance law as an elective for ages, but it never runs.

LOL. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and I doubt you're a law student.

You have also completely missed the point of my post. I said it's a factor to be taken into account in a hiring decision (with work experience etc). Then I said firms are running leaner business models (lower associateartner ratios) and law schools are pumping out more graduates leading to more competition. It's a buyer's market and they need to distinguish between candidates. One way they will do this is to prefer grads from a particular school.

I'm saying this not because I like it (obviously I don't b/c I'm from Deakin) but because it's the reality.

I'm not concerned with nursing or education degrees.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

LOL this is the biggest load of junk ever. Hospitals take Doctors from whereever they can get them because of the mass shortage in the Industry. Needless to say with medicinethe criteria that has to be met is so stringent that it is identical whereever you go. A very highly regarded surgeon I know went to James Cook to study and is now highly in demand because his skills are superio.

This is incorrect.

Certain hospitals (again, I'll use the Alfred Hospital as an example) are pseudo tied in to certain schools.

Different medical schools, have different teaching styles/methods and while they do teach the same core criterion - some schools place greater emphasis on different areas.

This is clear when graduates/students walk into a hospital environment for placement.

The Alfred 9/10 will take in Monash graduates and work closely with Monash with regard to practical 'hands on' teaching of subjets which is evident (as all Monash students do placement at the Alfred) - whereas Royal Melbourne medical staff are known to joke about Monash graduates claiming "they need to be re-educated about some of the core principles" and therefore take in mainly Melbourne Medical students.

It's very political.

In terms of a shortage - there is a shortage of doctors in rural Australia. To get a medical placement/position within Melbourne is very competetive, therefore where you have conducted your studies (Bachelor of Medicine/Surgery) plays a part in the selection process.

 

[notting18]

From my experience, if you look at the graduate intake of top/mid tier firms the breakdown will be approximately 80% Melbourne/Monash and 20% VU and Deakin. The breakdowns within the 80% and 20% groups varies depending on the firm, candidates, etc.

Your university is by no means a decisive factor, but it does play a role.

 

[deeman12]

From my experience, if you look at the graduate intake of top/mid tier firms the breakdown will be approximately 80% Melbourne/Monash and 20% VU and Deakin. The breakdowns within the 80% and 20% groups varies depending on the firm, candidates, etc.

Your university is by no means a decisive factor, but it does play a role.

Where does La Trobe come into the picture with respect to graduate intakes? I'd have thought that La Trobe is better rated, albeit slightly, amongst the top-tier firms than what Deakin and VU are.

 

[checkraiseulite]

I would say Deakin and La Trobe would be perceived to be on a similar level, with VU quite a ways behind both.

 

[notting18]

Where does La Trobe come into the picture with respect to graduate intakes? I'd have thought that La Trobe is better rated, albeit slightly, amongst the top-tier firms than what Deakin and VU are.

I thought I was forgetting one of the universities. From my experience La Trobe would be in with Deakin and VU in the same 20% block. As it is such a limited pool I couldn't say which was considered better than the others in my experience. Similar to Monash/Melbourne. Sometimes you see 50/30 Melbourne/Monash or 20/60 Melbourne/Monash, its just too variable from firm to firm and intake to intake.

 

[Teffy]

What part does the individuals drive and intelligence play in all this?

I have met people without law degrees that have won high court cases off their own back.

 

[Hill2Pav]

I am now leaning towards Southern Cross University if I am going to do my LLB externally. I will just have to see if they have a 2nd semester intake for 2010.