"The Left"

[deltablues]

To answer slightly obliquely OP's post, most folk are centrists (a little Left and a little Right, and that sweet spot is where elections are won, usually). However, the Left/Right viewpoints have become highly polarized through the partisan politics of extremists on both sides, which drives a percentage of the Left more left, and the Right more right.

Some of the comments on this thread illustrate this current zeitgeist (no offense).

What has occurred is that the original distinctions between the political Left and the Right, from a philosophical viewpoint, have been hijacked by the activists as part of the ongoing culture wars (I commented on this in another context elsewhere in the SRP forum). As part of their strategy the partisan extremists demonize folk not perceived to be on their side (e.g. in a US context Republicans are red-necks not interested in the Arts and will drive their Cadillacs over the homeless etc, and Democrats are touchy/feely emoters always in search of a battle to fight or a victim to champion).

Alan Bloom’s The Closing of the American Mind analyzes this context (culture wars) which had their roots in the '60's revolutionary student politics and liberation movements (my era as it happened) and casts them as a contest over the meaning not only of truth, but in classical Derrida deconstruction logic — the very concept of truth. This is pure Marxist deconstruction and the battle is between those views held by the sixties and post-sixties moral and cultural relativists (who are all on the Left) , and on the other hand the more traditional rationalists who believe, as Bloom wrote: “ truth is universal, no matter the circumstances.” So did Descartes and Spinoza, for that matter.

This struggle has resulted in a significant transformation (Obama's mantra) of what has been described as "normative" America and its traditional values, and produced the Left's cultural identity movements of feminism, gay liberation, and a new "progressive" more secular counterculture. This is one reason why some sections of the Right are now perceived as far Right (gay marriage is a good example of this, especially disliked by religious conservatives - not exclusively Christian).

These sorts of issues are now driving the political debate as to what it means to be Left (or Right).

 

[Little Big John]

Alan Bloom’s The Closing of the American Mind analyzes this context (culture wars) which had their roots in the '60's revolutionary student politics and liberation movements (my era as it happened) and casts them as a contest over the meaning not only of truth, but in classical Derrida deconstruction logic — the very concept of truth. This is pure Marxist deconstruction and the battle is between those views held by the sixties and post-sixties moral and cultural relativists (who are all on the Left) , and on the other hand the more traditional rationalists who believe, as Bloom wrote: “ truth is universal, no matter the circumstances.” So did Descartes and Spinoza, for that matter.

What's your beef with Derrida exactly (or deconstructionism/post-structuralism/post-modernism ad infinitum)?

There's never been a universal fixed truth/morality. If there was/is then the views of Descartes and Spinoza that you seem to champion wouldn't have been in conflict with the prevailing Judaeo/Christian orthodox theology of the time.

Referring to your comments in the Paris thread, you appear to be of a belief that a debate of competing ideas is a welcome thing, but only if there's a declared victor at the end of it. The mere fact that there are in fact competing ideas of what truth/morality is would in mind speak to its essence of subjectivity or plurality.

In short, I get that you're an avowed conservative, but I don't think Derrida was out to break the foundations of Western philosophical thought. He simply built on what had come before just like all the others (namely Nietzsche - classics majoring #Bojo forbearer that he was).

 

[deltablues]

What's your beef with Derrida exactly (or deconstructionism/post-structuralism/post-modernism ad infinitum)?

There's never been a universal fixed truth/morality. If there was/is then the views of Descartes and Spinoza that you seem to champion wouldn't have been in conflict with the prevailing Judaeo/Christian orthodox theology of the time.

Referring to your comments in the Paris thread, you appear to be of a belief that a debate of competing ideas is a welcome thing, but only if there's a declared victor at the end of it. The mere fact that there are in fact competing ideas of what truth/morality is would in mind speak to its essence of subjectivity or plurality.

In short, I get that you're an avowed conservative, but I don't think Derrida was out to break the foundations of Western philosophical thought. He simply built on what had come before just like all the others (namely Nietzsche - classics majoring #Bojo forbearer that he was).

What's my beef? If you read page 3 et seq. in the "Is this world sexist the way we were racist 50 years ago" thread you will see my position on this (saves me repeating it here and of course happy to discuss).

I agree that there has never been a universal truth or morality - but I prefer the Western version, and I will vigorously argue against other versions, especially the version championed by Derrida et al.

Re my political leanings [I get that you're an avowed conservative] (which should be irrelevant to a debate per se) I am very much right of center in respect of things like small government, border protection etc, but left of center in respect of society having structures in place to support the aged, the sick and the mentally infirm. Perhaps the latter is now self-serving as I reach advanced years....

I might add that I don't think you have to be a conservative to be pro-Western civilization - labeling folk is just a tribal device to dismissively close out argument (I'm not saying you have done it in your response, btw), but I am very aware of contextual frameworks in these sorts of discussions.

 

[Little Big John]

What's my beef? If you read page 3 et seq. in the "Is this world sexist the way we were racist 50 years ago" thread you will see my position on this (saves me repeating it here and of course happy to discuss).

I agree that there has never been a universal truth or morality - but I prefer the Western version, and I will vigorously argue against other versions, especially the version championed by Derrida et al.

Re my political leanings [I get that you're an avowed conservative] (which should be irrelevant to a debate per se) I am very much right of center in respect of things like small government, border protection etc, but left of center in respect of society having structures in place to support the aged, the sick and the mentally infirm. Perhaps the latter is now self-serving as I reach advanced years....

I might add that I don't think you have to be a conservative to be pro-Western civilization - labeling folk is just a tribal device to dismissively close out argument (I'm not saying you have done it in your response, btw), but I am very aware of contextual frameworks in these sorts of discussions.

Sorry, mate. Haven't read that thread, will read it now(ish).

And I didn't mean conservative in a pejorative or derisory sense. More that you appear to lean towards conserving what you see as important institutions, or more precisely modes of thinking. Personally I find that restricting rather than grounding.

I don't have an issue with that by the by; we all are have things we want to keep and others we wish to discard or change. We (universal we) simply different on what those things are and the balance of how many are in each column.

Cards on the table for me; love Spinoza, like Derrida too, not a lot of time for Descartes. But all in all think the label of Western is rather meaningless given everyone from Aristotle to Foucault shelter underneath that umbrella.

Anyways, good chat.

 

[deltablues]

Sorry, mate. Haven't read that thread, will read it now(ish).

And I didn't mean conservative in a pejorative or derisory sense. More that you appear to lean towards conserving what you see as important institutions, or more precisely modes of thinking. Personally I find that restricting rather than grounding.

I don't have an issue with that by the by; we all are have things we want to keep and others we wish to discard or change. We (universal we) simply different on what those things are and the balance of how many are in each column.

Cards on the table for me; love Spinoza, like Derrida too, not a lot of time for Descartes. But all in all think the label of Western is rather meaningless given everyone from Aristotle to Foucault shelter underneath that umbrella.

Anyways, good chat.

Thank you, LBJ [do you like that diminutive? It reminds me somehow of Vietnam, but I digress].

I am a libertarian and I fear for the future of freedom of speech (as opposed to freedom from being offended by speech and speech constrained by Orwellian PC Newspeak). The distinction is crucial and my posts here attempt to partly explain why (at the risk of appearing to be a self-referencing onanist).

I do indeed lean towards conserving important institutions (which for me are the Greco-Roman political and philosophical underpinnings of the Western weltanschauung - more so than Judeo-Christian). And having lived in many TW countries during my working life I came to more fully realize and appreciate the illusory and pernicious tropes (tripe) of the cultural relativists. I came to realize that "Western" is, contrary to what you might be suggesting, very far from "rather meaningless". "Western"is in fact a beacon, as evidenced by all of the non-Western folk who are drawn to the West as are moths to a bright light.

The Marxist deconstructionists are against the West and its works. We can of course view this in a dispassionate universal way like some kind of cosmic curator or some academic in his/her/transgender ivory tower, but in the real world, where the rubber hits the road, these academic conceits are [literally in the Paris context] blown away - big time.

 

[Xsess]

The west is simply riding the rise and fall of every other successful civilisation through all of history. Its normal for the fall of an empire to begin from within, a bloc that eats away its original foundation and purpose. The dumb (for want of a better term I refer to them as "the left") breed at higher rates in the prosperous conditions right wingers produce.

 

[HollyZholm]

fat cumsock Sarah Hanson-Young

That's no way to talk about our (Australia) rising star. Hanson-Young is the face of the next gen, I think she represents them well.

 

[madmug]

The west is simply riding the rise and fall of every other successful civilisation through all of history. Its normal for the fall of an empire to begin from within, a bloc that eats away its original foundation and purpose. The dumb (for want of a better term I refer to them as "the left") breed at higher rates in the prosperous conditions right wingers produce.

I would have thought the 'dumb' ones in society would be from the right. The ones who believe in the primacy of the individual. The ones who think that that economic growth will go on forever. That the environment doesnt matter & that the key to everything is simply more consumption.

Its an illogical premise. We are fast learning the lessons of that mantra.

 

[Fire]

The dumb (for want of a better term I refer to them as "the left") breed at higher rates in the prosperous conditions right wingers produce.

So being 'left' is hereditary now?

In a previous thread you described the 'left' as being a communist conspiracy.

Calling us left wingers dumb seems pretty apt, because my little monkey brain can't find any consistency in these positions, and to me you seem to be losing the plot.

 

[The Redemption]

That's no way to talk about our (Australia) rising star. Hanson-Young is the face of the next gen, I think she represents them well.

the next gen is rooted if that whinging offers nothing in response cow represents us.

here is the kicked, she whinges, nothing more, nothing less

 

[romeohwho]

the next gen is rooted if that whinging offers nothing in response cow represents us.

here is the kicked, she whinges, nothing more, nothing less

Just back from the climate rally. I was so hoping to bump into you and xeeey-that would have been just fab.

 

[Schache It Off]

How come throughout the Paris issues, the left have been silent?

Is that fat cumsock Sarah Hanson-Young too busy whinging about our immigration policy to arrogant not look at how completely wrecked Europe is due to these smelly, uneducated terrorists that plainly do not want to forge their way throughout the western world in sync with our ways of life.

Strange huh?

Drop them all into the ocean, men, women and children and fly away. Problem solved.

When you think about it, there is a 'holy' alliance between the Left and Islam. The left need Islam for votes, and Muslims needs the left to bring in more socialism, welfare etc.

It is killing the Western world, especially our nation.

 

[Schache It Off]

Just back from the climate rally. I was so hoping to bump into you and xeeey-that would have been just fab.

If there was a religion for the secular left, it is climate change. Oh well, according to a recent CSIRO report more Australians are now rejecting this religion of yours so enjoy it while it lasts...

 

[romeohwho]

If there was a religion for the secular left, it is climate change. Oh well, according to a recent CSIRO report more Australians are now rejecting this religion of yours so enjoy it while it lasts...

lol run along now you poor old dinosaur-between those muslims and lefties and climate change nuts, you have got sooo much to be worried about. Bunkers to be built and all that. You don't have time to be posting charming stuff on BF.

 

[apparentlydead]

If there was a religion for the secular left, it is climate change. Oh well, according to a recent CSIRO report more Australians are now rejecting this religion of yours so enjoy it while it lasts...

So, Tripwire has changed his username in an attempt to wash off his previously well know bigotry and use of the term 'left'.

Sadly, he forgot to change his gif avatar

Little doubt that the 4,274 uses of the words left and leftist over the next month will keep us all well aware of our favourite storm front warrior.

 

[Schache It Off]

storm front warrior.

What is with you people bringing up the Nazi insults/references?

I'm not even white anyway

 

[Gough]

Australia would be a significantly worse place if people like you were anything but ridiculous noise from the fringes. We should be thankful you are as relevant as betamax.

 

[smokingjacket]

How come throughout the Paris issues, the left have been silent?

Is that fat cumsock Sarah Hanson-Young too busy whinging about our immigration policy to arrogant not look at how completely wrecked Europe is due to these smelly, uneducated terrorists that plainly do not want to forge their way throughout the western world in sync with our ways of life.

Strange huh?

Drop them all into the ocean, men, women and children and fly away. Problem solved.

The uneducated terrorists that were doctors and engineers ala 7/7 ?

The left has been awash in commentary about Paris.

Actually why am I bothering.

 

[smokingjacket]

When you think about it, there is a 'holy' alliance between the Left and Islam. The left need Islam for votes, and Muslims needs the left to bring in more socialism, welfare etc.

It is killing the Western world, especially our nation.

Yep, Muslims to blame for the welfare state. In fact when you play the Quran backwards on a gramophone you can hear the Attlee governments 1945 policy platform. Spooky man.

 

[deltablues]

lol run along now you poor old dinosaur-between those muslims and lefties and climate change nuts, you have got sooo much to be worried about. Bunkers to be built and all that. You don't have time to be posting charming stuff on BF.

It's one thing being ignorant, but I admire your courage for being brave enough to put it on public display for all to see.

 

[romeohwho]

It's one thing being ignorant, but I admire your courage for being brave enough to put it on public display for all to see.

Aaw shucks, thanks Delta.
Like yourself, I just hang off any pearls of wisdom you care to drop.

 

[deltablues]

Aaw shucks, thanks Delta.
Like yourself, I just hang off any pearls of wisdom you care to drop.

Heh. Very droll.

 

[Contra Mundum]

What's your beef with Derrida exactly (or deconstructionism/post-structuralism/post-modernism ad infinitum)?

There's never been a universal fixed truth/morality. If there was/is then the views of Descartes and Spinoza that you seem to champion wouldn't have been in conflict with the prevailing Judaeo/Christian orthodox theology of the time.

Referring to your comments in the Paris thread, you appear to be of a belief that a debate of competing ideas is a welcome thing, but only if there's a declared victor at the end of it. The mere fact that there are in fact competing ideas of what truth/morality is would in mind speak to its essence of subjectivity or plurality.

In short, I get that you're an avowed conservative, but I don't think Derrida was out to break the foundations of Western philosophical thought. He simply built on what had come before just like all the others (namely Nietzsche - classics majoring #Bojo forbearer that he was).

Yeh you can't judge Derrida by the greatest hits quotes

 

[evo]

The mere fact that there are in fact competing ideas of what truth/morality is would in mind speak to its essence of subjectivity or plurality.

Somewhat paradoxically this points to a truth of subjectivity.

 

[Little Big John]

Yeh you can't judge Derrida by the greatest hits quotes

I'm not really the judgemental type, but if I was in the business of ranking philosophers I'd surely be doing it against the one, blinding piece of insight they had, rather than all the rest of the guff they've shoehorned in.