No Oppo Supporters The Melt Thread

[Crippa]

We were the third most experienced and oldest team of round 1, after West Coast and Hawthorn.

It doesn't look much like a rebuild. It only looks like one in terms of performance.

Maybe you need to look a bit deeper.

• 31 year old Dawson only played because young Alex Pearce is injured.

• 31 year old Griffin only played because young Michael Apeness is injured.

• Someone older (maybe DPearce) only played because young Harley Bennell is injured.

Subtracting those 3 older players from the 7 that played in Round 1 leaves 4 older players. That is bog- standard if you look at the teams fielded by the Dogs and the Hawks in Rd 1 of Year 2 of their rebuilds (2013 and 2006). The Dogs played Dan Giansiracusa, Dale Morris, Robert Murphy and Daniel Cross. That's three 31 years olds and one 30 year old. The Hawks did essentially the same, playing two 32 year olds & three 29 year olds.

It may have escaped your notice, but the age-profile of our list has been severely compromised by the obscene number of 1st round draft pick busts we've suffered. This places us at a significant disadvantage relative to other teams. First, it diminishes the quality of the list substantially. Secondly, and as a consequence, it severely restricts the options available to the coach when seeking to field a young but skilled, experienced and competitive team.

 

[E Shed]

• 31 year old Dawson only played because young Alex Pearce is injured.

• 31 year old Griffin only played because young Michael Apeness is injured.

• Someone older (maybe DPearce) only played because young Harley Bennell is injured.

Probably true for Griffin but I'd wager it would be Blakely or Langdon that would have come out for Bennell & Dawson is an automatic in for Lyon so someone else will make way. Collins can't crack a game & he has good form at Peel.

 

[rgauci]

Have someone new sitting behind me. Yells kick it long if we try and switch the ball . Yells look for someone in short if we kick it long .
Then if (when) we stuff it up yells I told you so.
He gets most of players names wrong as he abuses them.
THEN WHEN we do move the ball well he tells everyone how clever he is and that he should be the coach.
Melt over.

I take your scenario and raise you an obnoxious 20 something year old guy, wearing an Eagles jumper, with a dirty moe like McCarthy, who spent the whole game talking constantly about how much of a s**t bloke McCarthy is, and how he's a crap footballer. I can't remember a moment in the game last week he wasn't running his motor mouth. He better not be around in a fortnight. I usually wear headphones but they were broken. Need to get a new one.

 

[igon value]

Maybe you need to look a bit deeper.

• 31 year old Dawson only played because young Alex Pearce is injured.

• 31 year old Griffin only played because young Michael Apeness is injured.

• Someone older (maybe DPearce) only played because young Harley Bennell is injured.

Subtracting those 3 older players from the 7 that played in Round 1 leaves 4 older players. That is bog- standard if you look at the teams fielded by the Dogs and the Hawks in Rd 1 of Year 2 of their rebuilds (2013 and 2006). The Dogs played Dan Giansiracusa, Dale Morris, Robert Murphy and Daniel Cross. That's three 31 years olds and one 30 year old. The Hawks did essentially the same, playing two 32 year olds & three 29 year olds.

It may have escaped your notice, but the age-profile of our list has been severely compromised by the obscene number of 1st round draft pick busts we've suffered. This places us at a significant disadvantage relative to other teams. First, it diminishes the quality of the list substantially. Secondly, and as a consequence, it severely restricts the options available to the coach when seeking to field a young but skilled, experienced and competitive team.

I'll grant you Apeness in for Griffin, not the other two. Dawson and Pearce have nearly played every game possible under Lyon, no sign that would have changed this year. Alternatively one could argue that had Ballantyne not been injured he would have played. Just as likely we would have played 8 players over 30.

As for the position the list is in, it is no different to the situation we faced in the last rebuild under Harvey, where from 2001-2007 we had burned nearly every draft pick, high and low.

Round 1 2009 we played two debutants from the previous years draft. Round 1 this year: zip.

What does a rebuild tend to look like? It usually looks like a drop in age of the best 22, accompanied by a mass of debutants from previous years drafts. The side that was fielded against Geelong did not look like one that was going through a rebuild.

 

[Dirty_banchez]

Didn't Lyon say last year at the Doig that the Bulldogs had given the Dockers hope? Doesn't sound like the words from someone who is rebuilding to me.

 

[Steinfreo]

As has been explained several times, it was a Starlight Foundation pledge - he was doing it for the kids.

Dab away

 

[meima]

Didn't Lyon say last year at the Doig that the Bulldogs had given the Dockers hope? Doesn't sound like the words from someone who is rebuilding to me.

Rebuild his butt , playing croz as forward in JLT after better showing as halfback last season , show that he want to fall back to his old game plan. Apart from weller and hamling all those back line players know his old game plan well, even if Lyon implement new game plan , all of them will fall back to playing the same way when thing not working .just like vs Geelong a glimpse of new game plan for 15 minute then everything just dissapeared . doing hawthorn skill when thing not working fall back to the same old . even with great players hawthorn need time to gel after their 2008 premiership and change .

 

[Dirty_banchez]

As has been explained several times, it was a Starlight Foundation pledge - he was doing it for the kids.

Just showing his support for the Legal Marijuana Movement.

 

[E Shed]

I take your scenario and raise you an obnoxious 20 something year old guy, wearing an Eagles jumper, with a dirty moe like McCarthy, who spent the whole game talking constantly about how much of a s**t bloke McCarthy is, and how he's a crap footballer. I can't remember a moment in the game last week he wasn't running his motor mouth. He better not be around in a fortnight. I usually wear headphones but they were broken. Need to get a new one.

I honestly don't know how much longer I can keep actually going to games, got 2 guys next to me who talk through the whole game in that all knowing, this is what they should be doing way then lean over and ask me who that was who just kicked a goal or took a mark because they're too busy talking to actually watch and don't know half the players anyway. Then there is the ubiquitous yell something at the top of his voice because he's so funny guy a couple of rows back.

 

[Dirty_banchez]

Rebuild his butt , playing croz as forward in JLT after better showing as halfback last season , show that he want to fall back to his old game plan. Apart from weller and hamling all those back line players know his old game plan well, even if Lyon implement new game plan , all of them will fall back to playing the same way when thing not working .just like vs Geelong a glimpse of new game plan for 15 minute then everything just dissapeared . doing hawthorn skill when thing not working fall back to the same old . even with great players hawthorn need time to gel after their 2008 premiership and change .

Who knows with Ross. He persists with C-shape switching which is too slow, we bomb our forward line like it is a war zone and our skills are putrid.

I'm honestly not even sure if we have a bad list or if we are just poorly coached. You would have to think it is the latter given how badly Hamling has regressed, and the fact we have such a strong midfield. We should be doing better.

 

[blue shark]

Didn't Lyon say last year at the Doig that the Buthelldogs had given the Dockers hope? Doesn't sound like the words from someone who is rebuilding to me.

Rinse and repeat, just like last year Ross will pick his side until hope fades and like any coach under the pump
implement a youth policy.
The difference with our list is the huge gap in age, and hopefully the older blokes will fall on their sword.
Next year he will have no choice but to play youth.
Have to say that Darcy needs to play sooner, will be like playing another midfielder in the centre, and will
throw his weight around, something we don't see enough of from Sandi, Griff.

 

[rgauci]

I honestly don't know how much longer I can keep actually going to games, got 2 guys next to me who talk through the whole game in that all knowing, this is what they should be doing way then lean over and ask me who that was who just kicked a goal or took a mark because they're too busy talking to actually watch and don't know half the players anyway. Then there is the ubiquitous yell something at the top of his voice because he's so funny guy a couple of rows back.

It's potentially the worst possible time for the club to be sliding. All ticket prices are going to be jacked up ridiculously and the stadium won't ever be at capacity.

The powers that be better be ready.

 

[Crippa]

Probably true doe Griffin but I'd wager ir would be Blakely or Langdon that would have come out for Bennell & Dawson is an automatic in for Lyon so someone else will make way. Collins can't crack a game & he has good form at Peel.

Makes no sense to leap from the premise that Collins can't crack a game to the conclusion that Lyon prefers Dawson to both Johnson and Hamling. On Bennell, I'd wager that either Suban or DPearce will have to make way. Ross can dispense with Suban's long kicking once the genuine article comes in.

 

[sportsmaniac89]

******* Aussies ******* up the 4th test and a year of unwatchable footy. Why the **** do I love sport so much?

Welcome to my life.

My WNBL team came ******* runners up in the Grand Final and then without a break move across into that debacle joke of a match. Add to that the Victory lost on the weekend.....******* hell.

I'm a sucker for punishment it seems

 

[Joeltownsmith]

We looked a little top heavy with Griff n sandy, eventually down the track I rekon you'll c a guy like logue who can play defense pinch it in the ruck, plug a hole kinda what trengove does for port.

 

[clivenator26]

I'll grant you Apeness in for Griffin, not the other two. Dawson and Pearce have nearly played every game possible under Lyon, no sign that would have changed this year. Alternatively one could argue that had Ballantyne not been injured he would have played. Just as likely we would have played 8 players over 30.

As for the position the list is in, it is no different to the situation we faced in the last rebuild under Harvey, where from 2001-2007 we had burned nearly every draft pick, high and low.

Round 1 2009 we played two debutants from the previous years draft. Round 1 this year: zip.

What does a rebuild tend to look like? It usually looks like a drop in age of the best 22, accompanied by a mass of debutants from previous years drafts. The side that was fielded against Geelong did not look like one that was going through a rebuild.

Joel Hamling. Hamling & Alex are the KPP's of the future. I'm not sold on Collins, but he will likely take games either when MJ retires or Ross tells Zac his time is up.

 

[igon value]

Joel Hamling. Hamling & Alex are the KPP's of the future. I'm not sold on Collins, but he will likely take games either when MJ retires or Ross tells Zac his time is up.

Hamling and Alex Pearce may be the future, but there's no guarantee Dawson would have been omitted in favour of either of them.

It was still the third oldest side of round 1 with an average age over 26 and no debuting players. That does not look like a team rebuilding.

 

[Nodgey]

My melt is directed to the forward line coach and therefore also to Ross as the man in charge. We have zero system there; we continue to bomb it long; and yet despite playing our forwards high up the ground, our forward 50 often appears congested and we find no space.

The new players make no difference here, it's coaching and positioning. I'm concerned. It looks like 2016 all over again.

Brad Hill however was a breath of fresh air hitting up blokes on the lead

 

[salim malik]

Hamling and Alex Pearce may be the future, but there's no guarantee Dawson would have been omitted in favour of either of them.

It was still the third oldest side of round 1 with an average age over 26 and no debuting players. That does not look like a team rebuilding.

I counted four new players for Freo all under 24 . That looks like the start of a rebuild to me.

 

[StingBitten]

My melt is directed to the forward line coach and therefore also to Ross as the man in charge. We have zero system there; we continue to bomb it long; and yet despite playing our forwards high up the ground, our forward 50 often appears congested and we find no space.

The new players make no difference here, it's coaching and positioning. I'm concerned. It looks like 2016 all over again.

Brad Hill however was a breath of fresh air hitting up blokes on the lead

There was a telling moment in the match when someone(?) kicked the ball into the forward 50 to Walters and 4 tall Cats Defenders, and Sonson didn't even bother trying to grab it - he didn't have a chance in hell.

 

[youmewe]

Maybe you need to look a bit deeper.

• 31 year old Dawson only played because young Alex Pearce is injured.

• 31 year old Griffin only played because young Michael Apeness is injured.

• Someone older (maybe DPearce) only played because young Harley Bennell is injured.

Subtracting those 3 older players from the 7 that played in Round 1 leaves 4 older players. That is bog- standard if you look at the teams fielded by the Dogs and the Hawks in Rd 1 of Year 2 of their rebuilds (2013 and 2006). The Dogs played Dan Giansiracusa, Dale Morris, Robert Murphy and Daniel Cross. That's three 31 years olds and one 30 year old. The Hawks did essentially the same, playing two 32 year olds & three 29 year olds.

It may have escaped your notice, but the age-profile of our list has been severely compromised by the obscene number of 1st round draft pick busts we've suffered. This places us at a significant disadvantage relative to other teams. First, it diminishes the quality of the list substantially. Secondly, and as a consequence, it severely restricts the options available to the coach when seeking to field a young but skilled, experienced and competitive team.

How can you exclude Dawson, D. Pearce and Griffin simply because they hurt your argument?

Dawson is a first choice defender at FFC.

He has played more games under RTB than any other player (151 and counting).

He missed 4 games last season: rd 8 and rds 20-22.

Was he dropped for rd 8? Hardly. It was an unwinnable game v Hawthorn in Tasmania. If Dawson was dropped, why didn't he play for Peel that week? Why was he immediately reinstated to the senior team for the next game? We omitted Dawson because he was too valuable (?) to risk in an unwinnable game where there was no obvious matchup for him (Hawthorn played a very short team that week).

He then played every game until his brain fart in rd 19 saw him suspended for rds 20-22. Returned to the team for rd 23, played rd 1 this season and will continue to be selected by the match committee (needs 12 more games for father/son qualification).

D. Pearce is a first choice player at FFC.

He has played 95 of a possible 96 games since his recruitment. His only miss was the 'bye' game in 2015.

Dawson and D. Pearce will play even when / if A. Pearce and Bennell become available. Other players will be dropped to make way.

Griffin is more disposable, but the other alternatives are perpetually injured (Clarke and Apeness).

Ballas would have played rd 1 if available, Spurr turns 30 this year. Both are first choice players.

Later this season we may be fielding as many as 8 players over the age of 30, 6 over the age of 31.

We had 8 players over the age of 29 in rd 1, Geelong had 3.

 

[youmewe]

Excuse me while I melt about this melt -


In what universe do those numbers prove that we're going backwards? You may as well argue that the Doggies went backwards in their quest for a premiership after Year 2 of their rebuild because, after winning 8 games in Year 2, they only won 7 games in Year 3 and ended up with a worse percentage. All those shock-horror numbers you posted prove only one thing: that we're crap. That conclusion is easily reached by simple observation. You needn't have gone to all that trouble.

It's impossible to have a balanced perspective on where we stand without comparing our performance since our rebuild began in 2016 with the trajectory followed by other rebuilding teams that went on to win a flag.

Take the case of the Dogs and the Hawks. The Dogs commenced their rebuild in 2012 (when McCartney was brought in to do the job). The Hawks commenced theirs in 2005 (when Clarko was brought in for that purpose). The Hawks' case is a little different though because by the time Clarko started in 2005 the recruiters had already gone a long way towards putting together a premiership-quality list. There was a core of battle-hardened stars - Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Shane Crawford, Trent Croad, Chance Bateman and Brad Sewell - to which the firepower of Roughhead, Franklin and Lewis were added in 2004 with picks 2,5 and 7.

So - How does our record compare with the Dogs and the Hawks at a similar stage in their rebuilds?

Year 1

We finished 4th last - 4W-18L (percentage: 74.28)
Dogs finished 4th last - 5W-17L (percentage: 67.01)
Hawks finished 3rd last - 5W-17L (percentage: 82.18)

We lost by 41+ points 7 times .........................(random number taken from your post)
Dogs lost by 41+ points 10 times
Hawks lost by 41+ points 8 times

We scored 90+ 4 times and conceded 90+ 13 times .........(random number taken from your post)
Dogs scored 90+ 3 times and conceded 90+ 16 times
Hawks scored 90+ 6 times and conceded 90+ 16 times

Year 2 against previous year's losing preliminary finalists

Freo lost to Geelong by 42 points (73-115) at Subi
Dogs lost to Adelaide by 52 points (28-80) at AAMI
Dogs lost to Collingwood by 34 points (65-99) at Etihad
Hawks lost to StKilda by 70 points (55-125) at Etihad
Hawks lost to Adelaide by 36 points (73-109) at AAMI



Seems a reasonable conclusion.

Using your parameters then: Hawthorn 2005, Western Bulldogs 2012, Freo late 2016.

Hawthorn

Rd 1, 2005: 1723 games experience / average age 23 (years).350 (days) / 3 players aged 29+ / 12 players aged 23< / 12 players with less than 50 games experience.

Rd 22, 2005: 1680 games / 23.154 / 3 29+ / 11 23< / 11 players 50< games.

Rd 1, 2006: 1836 games / 24.74 / 3 29+ / 9 23< / 8 players 50< games.

Rd 22, 2006: 2016 games / 24.121/ 5 29+ / 9 23< / 7 players 50< games.

Rd 1, 2007: 1231 games / 23.51 / 0 29+ (oldest Croad 27.22) / 9 23< / 11 players 50< games.

Western Bulldogs

Rd 1, 2012: 1833 games / 24.256 / 6 29+ / 9 23< / 11 players 50< games.

Rd 23, 2012: 1659 games/ 24.79 / 3 29+ / 8 23< / 12 players <50 games.

Rd 1, 2013: 1774 games / 24.339 / 5 29+ / 10 23< / 13 players 50<games.

Rd 23, 2013: 2256 games / 25.109 / 5 29+ / 9 23< / 8 players 50< games.

Rd 1, 2014: 1932 games / 25.134 / 5 29+ / 9 23< / 10 players 50< games.

Fremantle

Rd 1, 2016: 2608 games / 26.320 / 6 29+ / 4 23< / 3 players 50<games (premiership mode).

Rd 16, 2016: 2389 games / 25.277 / 5 29+ / 7 23< / 7 players 50< games (game after bye, season over, play the kids mode).

Rd 23, 2016: 2620 games / 26.177 / 7 29+ / 6 23< / 6 players 50< games (farewell Pav mode).

Rd 1, 2017: 2449 games / 26.161 / 8 29+ / 5 23< / 7 players 50<games.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a team in rebuild mode we are far more conservative than other teams in the same boat.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

How is Harves these days, looking fit?

We played a more relevant game plan under Harvey than we do now. Not only that, the game plan actually suited the strengths of our players. He also actually played kids during the rebuild.

I'm starting to wonder if Ross has just come in at a time when our list was starting to peak/cherry ripe and profited from his predecessors hard work.

 

[Lost_Deputy]

I've been pretty steadfast in my defense of Lyon over years. When he came on board it was clear that he backed in his tactics and obsessive work ethic to get the job done. More so he didn't give a * what others thought.

It seemed like a good match and it was. However I reckon that obsessive quality has been lowering over time in order for RTB to get a better work-life balance. This is perfectly fine for most of us or even some coaches but not for Ross. His obsession gave him the edge. The one thing we could always count on with RTB was that we were going to hold our shape and the boys would know their roles inside and out.

Last year with him designating significant coaching elements to others and this year with us not having any shape its pretty clear that something is way, way off with RTB.

I'm not saying we cannot pull something together this year but there are some pretty worrying signs. I think what worries me most is I actually rate this squad's future.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Don't let any team have a spare defender. Our strength is around the ball and we need to have a forward structure that suits quick kicks from congestion. We have a very average forward line and we have zero chance of maintaining possession if we out numbered. Give our forward line a chance ffs.

I'd like to see us back ourselves in to win the ball. Not back ourselves to win the ball and just in case we turn it over we're prepared for it with an extra back. We structure up like we have Wayne Carey at centre half forward and Plugger in the goal square. It's embarrassing watching CMac and all the other forwards continuously taking on 2 defenders. It's like where okay with turning over the ball as long as if it's on the wing or at half forward.

The problem is, if you want to maek their spare, the opposition coach can just chuck another +1 down there. Rinse and repeat a couple of times and we've got a flooded forward line with forwards that couldn't take a pack mark to save their life.

You should be able to work your way around the spare defender, but again, that requires the ability to hit the target...